Yes. It is a blast for gym performance. I do feel really good on it though. Seems like less anxiety and I sleep better.
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He’s posted his values above
However are they peak or nadir values
If peak… ehhh, not the end of the world, but should lower dose though.
If nadir (likely)… way… way too high
You’ll find some guys reach supra levels of T of 75mg/wk, others it takes 200mg/wk. This dude almost certainly doesn’t need 350mg/wk, that’s a blast
Of course he feels fairly elated on a blast, and no… you can’t blast forever
Well you can…
You’ll die prematurely…
But you can…
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Then it isn’t supra
On the contrary, if free T is supra then it is supraphysiological unless you have defective androgen receptors
Unless his values are indicative of his nadir
Before steroids were made SCH III in 1990 it wasn’t entirely uncommon for doctors to prescribe gear to bodybuilders.
I did caveat, that it might be too high if he is on once a week shots, and that we should look at average level (average of peak and trough). It is likely too high (at least it would be for me long term) if injection frequency is low, and he is pulling at trough.
And who decides what’s supraphysiological?
Natural physiology decides what is and isn’t supraphysiological.
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Regarding TRT, what number is the lower threshold of supraphysiological?
There’s an old study I’d have to dig up calibrating a standardised reference range
Supre to ME would indicate you are north of +2.5 SD of that ref range regarding free T
Should we be looking at free t and not total t in this discussion anyhow?
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I think in a lot of medical stuff, the standard deviations away from mean is used to determine if something is abnormal. I have seen + /- 3 standard deviations away from mean used. that is from the mean though, not the upper range. So if mean was say 550 ng/dL and standard deviation was 150 ng/dL, that anything past 1,000 would be considered outside of normal. I just made up numbers for mean an standard deviation.
Not disagreeing with you. I think it is a valid approach to define what is supra.
Pretty much. For a hypogonadal individual to have a baseline hormonal milieu such that 350 mg/week is needed to re-establish normality would be so unusual as to almost never occur.
This situation is akin to the 250# fat guys who insist they can’t lose weight on 1500 cals/day. I mean, I suppose it’s possible that such an individual could exist. But when someone says ‘I’m 250# and can’t lose weight on 1500 cals/d,’ one’s first response shouldn’t be ‘Wow, you have possibly the slowest metabolism in the history of our species!’ Rather, it should be ‘Dude, you’re waaaaay off on your calorie counting.’
As we say in medicine: Common things are common, and undercounting calories is vastly more common than unbelievably-slow metabolisms. Likewise, having a non-testosterone cause of one’s libido and mood issues is vastly more common than having a hormonal milieu that requires 350 mg/week to normalize.
What you utterly fail to grasp is the importance of a priori probability in medical decision-making. The a priori probability of a man needing 350 mg T/week to be eugonadal is so small as to render it all but impossible. But this fact played no role in your ‘evaluation’ of the appropriateness of OP’s T dose. Instead, you simply accepted at face value his medically all-but-impossible claim.
In short, your thought process was hopelessly flawed from the outset. And this flawed process means your opinion is not only worthless–it’s downright dangerous.
Understand?
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Umm…you need to look back at one of my first posts in this thread, where I stated that I don’t know if the op needs more or needs LESS testosterone. I was simply stating that his protocol may not be right.
It’s gone off on a tangent, and I was simply looking for clarification when someone was talking about how 350 mg per week isn’t TRT.
So no, I made no evaluation that the op needs 350mg per week.
Again, why am I being attributed to saying something I never claimed?
So get off your fucking high horse, asshole!
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I’ll climb off my horse as soon as you rappel down from your perch atop Dunning-Kruger Mountain.
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Why did you assume something I never said?
My gosh u argue with everyone dont ya? Check ya e2 levels buddyboy, u sound like my sis
If it’s the case that someone needs 750mg/week to achieve 800ng/dl this is fair enough. If it’s the case that someone is sitting on 3000ng/dl for symptom relief that’s harder to justify IMO.
Not ONLY chasing numbers is reasonable advice but at what point do you decide that “symptom relief” is more important than staying at least close to reference range serum levels of hormones? The thing is “symptom relief” is a rather convenient justification statement if the aim is to use “cycle” amounts of gear. There is hefty overlap and commonality of symptoms between many illnesses. This is no different with Low T. Symptom relief is a very broad and unspecific term. Who knows what myriads of other processes could be negatively impacted if abnormally large amounts of exogenous steroids are shot into someone’s body for long periods of time to apparently relieve a couple of specific symptoms.
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I hear what you’re saying, and there are probably plenty of people who try to justify to themselves and others, that they don’t get full relief of symptoms until they take enough t to be a monster in the gym, or whatever.
Before I was on trt about 8 years ago, I had the following symptoms:
Severe brain fog, atrocious short term memory, no energy to work out, despite getting 8-9 hours of sleep a night, when forcing myself to work out, I noticed no improvement or strength gains, low libido, premature ejaculation issues, difficulty losing fat, etc.
My hope being on trt was to alleviate those symptoms, by taking the least amount of test to accomplish that. And every one of those symptoms listed has highly improved, or have been eliminated. For me, I’m in what is probably considered the majority of TRT patients. I need 150-200mg per week, my numbers are at the top of the “safe range”, and I feel a million times better than I did before trt.
But I’m talking about the minority. The outliers with issues that necessitate higher doses just to feel like a person again. They should be able to feel normal again, just like I do, even if it takes more T than is politically correct to do it. Just like the rare guy who only needs 50mg per week, and a 400 total t level to feel normal again, I don’t think he should be forced to take more t to get higher, just because someone is trying to get his blood work at a certain level.
You were asking “what constitutes supraphysiological”
It isn’t the dose per se, rather it’s the numbers you hit in a given dose. If an outlier requires 200mg/wk and records a trough reading of 500ng/dl with middle of the line FT, no one is arguing he needs to lower his dose. If he’s running 200mg and reads “1200ng/dl” six days after his last shot, that’s supraphysiological.
There are a few exceptions wherein you can MEDICALLY justify running supra doses
- PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome)
- AIDS/HIV related wasting
- Cachexia/chronic disease states resulting in wasting
- Aplastic anaemia, fanconi anaemia
And a few others.
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