[quote]Gkhan wrote:
So, what your saying is we can’t say anything bad about Iran, because we support Saudi Arabia? What kind of nonsense in that? [/quote]
Look at it this way: You’re more convincing when you walk the walk.
For me, governments are bad until proven otherwise. Violence is a no-no until you can show that it was inevitable because you were in immediate danger. If you can pick a hint of contradiction between this and my speech, let me know.
[quote]lixy wrote:
For me, governments are bad until proven otherwise. Violence is a no-no until you can show that it was inevitable because you were in immediate danger. If you can pick a hint of contradiction between this and my speech, let me know.[/quote]
You say America is bad. I say Iran is bad.
To me, it’s all your point of view.
If 100 years from now, people say: “I wish I could live under a Stalinist Communist Regime because it’s a great way to live” then all of what America has done, post WWII, is for not.
Let history judge us.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
You say America is bad. I say Iran is bad. [/quote]
Can’t argue with that. I never said any country was good.
As far as which country gives more freedom to its citizens, the US wins hands down. But then again, in a “which country kills more innocent kids”, I’m afraid you’ll win as well. In fact, I don’t know of any country that’s worse than the US with regards to foreign interventionism.
Back to the topic which was about freedoms. I pointed out that Saudi Arabia was even worse. For me, if you support a country that treats its women like 2nd class citizens, you lose the right to criticize the Iranians. To give you an analogy, if you’re complacent towards or actively support your kids Heroin addiction, you don’t get to have a say when she smokes a flavoured cigarette. Logic 101.
Of course, I interpreted Pat’s “book me on the next flight to Tehran” as a call for aggression. In that case, the argument (totalitarian regime) is totally hypocritical until you first withdraw support for similar or worse regimes (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt…). It’s self-evident.
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
He was talking about Guantanamo, not that Canada wipes the floor with the US in ice hockey…
…
WTF is wrong with Guantanamo? We have released plenty of people from that place and they have turned around and involved themselves in acts of terrorism.
The last time Austria was involved in a war they treated their prisoners far less humanely.
.
That is not entirely true.
Western POW were held according to the Geneva Convention, more or less, you might want to look up though what the Rheinwiesenlager were and how many Germans and Austrians died there.
You could go from there and examine what the percentage of American POWs dying on German care and the numbers on the American sides were.
You won`t however, because the results would be less Hollywood/Dineyland and more real world…
Too many people want to pretend that this is not a war and rules of civilian life should apply.
.
Yes, this is not a war.
It is an unrest in one of your colonies.
[/quote]
8300 Americans and Brits died while being held by the Germans in WW2. 1013 Germans and Italians died in US prison camps.
3.5% of US and British POW’s died in German prisons. Less then 1% died in US POW camps.
Both nations treated prisoners under the Geneva convention.
The Germans were not as friendly to the Russians. They killed 14% of those they captured. The Russians did the same.
Try google and use “prisoners of war in ww2”. The first 10 entries shoudl answer your questions.
The Hollywood/Disneyland part would be ignoring the German treatment of non-westerners…that would be living in la-la land. Of course ignoring those pesky little concentration camps and the final solution that would just be revisionist.
[quote]orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
.
One thing I am sure about gitmo, the people in it aren’t in it because they had western style haircuts or there burquas didn’t quite cover down to the big toe. I think they should close gitmo and put the prisoners in a less known location.
They were in it for all kinds of reasons.
Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$.
And you have proof of this I am sure. Please, at least display some links that demostrate this very “fact”.
You know I think the collective I.Q. of this forum is starting to hit rock bottom. The goal seems rather than discuss and argue, has become to berate and insult. Beat the guy next to you down.
I need to proof that someone behind bars with no lawyer is innocent?
PLus there are hundreds of people that were released, you notized that right?
There were also people kidnapped and later released by the US, does the US media not cover that?
Google away, there is no chance that you will not find plenty of cases.
No, you stated exactly this:
"Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$
I am suggesting either A)this is a factiod that you had some encounter with from a source other than your ass. Or B) the source is your ass because you simply don’t know who or what is in any of our prisons and for what reason.
B) is bad enough I suppose
and around 5000 per head was the number given by US forces, and more than one was incarcerated because the US cannot translate all those Arab names in proper English.
Hussein, Hussain, tomatoe, tomahto…
I am not bothering to post my links again because I have allready done so dozens of times on this board.
The hundreds of people released after years of imprisonment are telling their stories.
Why trust me, go ahead and so so me research.
Oh well:
Bounties:
Kidnappings:
http://www.asil.org/insights/2005/07/insights050707.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30275-2005Mar12.html
Shit, that was easy.
Do I need to dig deeper?
I seem, to remember a case in Bosnia-Herzegowina and one in Scandinavia?
[/quote]
See, now that wasn’t hard at all was it? That’s all I was asking for.
Sure dig deeper if you wish. It’s little issue to me. The advantage you have is that if you hate america so much, you never have to deal with us. You don’t have to come here, you don’t shop here you don’t have to deal with the U.S. in any way, shape or form.
You don’t have to deal with Americans, you don’t have to salute our flag or sing our national anthem.
I sense you aren’t here to argue a point but more trying to set us up so you can hit us with insults perhaps to make yourself feel better or more superior. In any case you being nationalistic yourself. We know there are things wrong in our country, but we always try to fix them. At least we have a voice. Can’t say that about the oppresive regimes you seem to think are a-ok.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Back to the topic which was about freedoms. I pointed out that Saudi Arabia was even worse. For me, if you support a country that treats its women like 2nd class citizens, you lose the right to criticize the Iranians. [/quote]
None of this even matters. The post was about how Iran taking the people’s freedoms away. If you want to talk about Saudi Arabia and the problems there, start another thread. I’d probably agree with you.
But, for a person who constantly sticks up for Iran, what do you think about the original topic of the post? I can bet if Iran was a US ally, it would be an outrage, but since they are not…
And what does this say about the “great revolution” they had there? Is it right that they took Iran back to the 14th Century? Too bad it wasn’t a Sufi revolution. They didn’t even get that part right…
[quote]pat36 wrote:
…you don’t have to deal with the U.S. in any way, shape or form. [/quote]
There are many countries on the planet that do HAVE to. I’m not criticising the actions here, but if you can’t name three or four countries in the Middle East that HAVE to deal with America, I’d be shocked.
[quote]vroom wrote:
pat36 wrote:
…you don’t have to deal with the U.S. in any way, shape or form.
There are many countries on the planet that do HAVE to. I’m not criticising the actions here, but if you can’t name three or four contries in the Middle East that HAVE to deal with America, I’d be shocked.
[/quote]
Nothing on earth would make me happier then to pull up our tent and leave for good. Allow Israel to be our proxy there if anybody wants to deal with the U.S. If I were president that would be a strong focus, to get the fuck out of the ME in total and for good. Let them go back to killing each other. I think the people least happy about that would be the ME.
I’d say that out side of Iraq, nobody actually has to deal with the U.S. there. They can certainly refuse to deal with us, expell our consolates, stop selling us oil and tell us to get bent. They certainly can do that, I’d say there is an awful lot of volunteering when it comes to dealing with the U.S. there. They may hate our people and our unislamic ways, but they love our money.
Pat,
I’m not trying to pick a fight, but I think these things are worth considering.
What do you think would happen if the Saudi’s stopped selling oil to the west and contracted to send all of it to Russia and China?
Anyway, countries that won’t be able to refuse dealing with the US for the forseeable future might include Pakistan, Israel, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan and perhaps Syria and Iran, though for a myriad of reasons.
I’m also not trying to criticise the US by stating these things.
While foreign issues are not really thought about by the average citizen they do play a critical role in the well-being of your nation. It’s easy to see why people in those nations might feel that the US does not have the best interests of the citizens of those foreign countries in mind at all times.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
None of this even matters. The post was about how Iran taking the people’s freedoms away. If you want to talk about Saudi Arabia and the problems there, start another thread. I’d probably agree with you. [/quote]
Again, my beef wasn’t with the criticism of the oppressive Iranian regime. We all know how fucked up it is over there. My comment was directed towards (what I interpreted as) Pat’s call for violence against Tehran. Pointing out to the hypocrisy of the situation belongs in this very thread. I don’t like double standards.
I’m not a fan of Ahmadinejad and his crew. I don’t like the way they oppress their people and limit their freedoms.
I defend Iran’s right to use civilian nuclear technology as defined by the NPT. I never EVER defended their censorship and other backwards actions. So please, don’t say that I “constantly sticks up for Iran” because it aint’ true. I just don’t like the idea of having another war going on in an already fucked up region.
Did I ever deny that it is an outrage? I think not.
No, it definitely wasn’t a smart idea. But I guess that’s what happens when you’re left with no other alternatives. You literally caused the ruin of nationalists there after ousting Mossadeq. What were the Iranians to do? Bow to the dictator that was the Shah?
What do you mean?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
I think the people least happy about that would be the ME. [/quote]
Wrong. The people least happy about that would be the corrupted ruling elite in those countries that will lose support and protection of the US. The US oil companies exploiting the riches of the region won’t be thrilled either. That particular lobby is too powerful to let any president mess with their bread and butter.
The masses in countries who endured your military interventionism would actually see it as a blessing.
[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
He was talking about Guantanamo, not that Canada wipes the floor with the US in ice hockey…
…
WTF is wrong with Guantanamo? We have released plenty of people from that place and they have turned around and involved themselves in acts of terrorism.
The last time Austria was involved in a war they treated their prisoners far less humanely.
.
That is not entirely true.
Western POW were held according to the Geneva Convention, more or less, you might want to look up though what the Rheinwiesenlager were and how many Germans and Austrians died there.
You could go from there and examine what the percentage of American POWs dying on German care and the numbers on the American sides were.
You won`t however, because the results would be less Hollywood/Dineyland and more real world…
Too many people want to pretend that this is not a war and rules of civilian life should apply.
.
Yes, this is not a war.
It is an unrest in one of your colonies.
8300 Americans and Brits died while being held by the Germans in WW2. 1013 Germans and Italians died in US prison camps.
3.5% of US and British POW’s died in German prisons. Less then 1% died in US POW camps.
Both nations treated prisoners under the Geneva convention.
The Germans were not as friendly to the Russians. They killed 14% of those they captured. The Russians did the same.
Try google and use “prisoners of war in ww2”. The first 10 entries shoudl answer your questions.
The Hollywood/Disneyland part would be ignoring the German treatment of non-westerners…that would be living in la-la land. Of course ignoring those pesky little concentration camps and the final solution that would just be revisionist.
[/quote]
You will find posts from me on this board comparing the SU POW camps to be basically concentration camps and adding those dead soldiers to the victims of the Nazis racial ideology.
Our prisoners or war in Russia suffered similar fates though, so the whole eastern front operated under different rules.
You should have googled the Rheinwiesenlager.
Though there are numbers out there that are probably very exagerated,meaning up to one million, they seem to be around 8000-40000.
Interestingly enough those people were not treated as POWs according to the Geneva convention because they were not soldiers but "DEF"s , Disabled Enemy Forces…
[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
.
One thing I am sure about gitmo, the people in it aren’t in it because they had western style haircuts or there burquas didn’t quite cover down to the big toe. I think they should close gitmo and put the prisoners in a less known location.
They were in it for all kinds of reasons.
Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$.
And you have proof of this I am sure. Please, at least display some links that demostrate this very “fact”.
You know I think the collective I.Q. of this forum is starting to hit rock bottom. The goal seems rather than discuss and argue, has become to berate and insult. Beat the guy next to you down.
I need to proof that someone behind bars with no lawyer is innocent?
PLus there are hundreds of people that were released, you notized that right?
There were also people kidnapped and later released by the US, does the US media not cover that?
Google away, there is no chance that you will not find plenty of cases.
No, you stated exactly this:
"Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$
I am suggesting either A)this is a factiod that you had some encounter with from a source other than your ass. Or B) the source is your ass because you simply don’t know who or what is in any of our prisons and for what reason.
B) is bad enough I suppose
and around 5000 per head was the number given by US forces, and more than one was incarcerated because the US cannot translate all those Arab names in proper English.
Hussein, Hussain, tomatoe, tomahto…
I am not bothering to post my links again because I have allready done so dozens of times on this board.
The hundreds of people released after years of imprisonment are telling their stories.
Why trust me, go ahead and so so me research.
Oh well:
Bounties:
Kidnappings:
http://www.asil.org/insights/2005/07/insights050707.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30275-2005Mar12.html
Shit, that was easy.
Do I need to dig deeper?
I seem, to remember a case in Bosnia-Herzegowina and one in Scandinavia?
See, now that wasn’t hard at all was it? That’s all I was asking for.
Sure dig deeper if you wish. It’s little issue to me. The advantage you have is that if you hate america so much, you never have to deal with us. You don’t have to come here, you don’t shop here you don’t have to deal with the U.S. in any way, shape or form.
You don’t have to deal with Americans, you don’t have to salute our flag or sing our national anthem.
I sense you aren’t here to argue a point but more trying to set us up so you can hit us with insults perhaps to make yourself feel better or more superior. In any case you being nationalistic yourself. We know there are things wrong in our country, but we always try to fix them. At least we have a voice. Can’t say that about the oppresive regimes you seem to think are a-ok. [/quote]
Ah , first those Guantanamo inmates were all terrorists, then I pulled it all out of my ass, and now I do not have to deal with Americans if you are all such bad people and I only want to insult patriotric Americans.
Maybe I am just allergic to BS?
Looking at Zaps reaction, after 60 years of American intervention and millions of people dead, the people of Iran are entirely responsible for their current situation.
Since Zap is hardly an imperialist hardliner, unlike Mick76 and JeffR, I do not see the recognizing and fixing part.
I see a lot of saber rattling towards Iran though, I see the dollar dropping which is a nice way of saying “stealing from your allies” and a population that can be scared shitless by 3000 people dead.
Um, 3000 dead Americans, you seem to handle foreign dead people quite well.
Who recognizes and handles all this?
Your presidential debates are on Youtube, remember and we, the rest of the world, cannot ignore the 400lbs gorilla that might mean well but is a tad clumsy.
[quote]orion wrote:
Do I need to dig deeper?
I seem, to remember a case in Bosnia-Herzegowina and one in Scandinavia?
See, now that wasn’t hard at all was it? That’s all I was asking for.
Sure dig deeper if you wish. It’s little issue to me. The advantage you have is that if you hate america so much, you never have to deal with us. You don’t have to come here, you don’t shop here you don’t have to deal with the U.S. in any way, shape or form.
You don’t have to deal with Americans, you don’t have to salute our flag or sing our national anthem.
I sense you aren’t here to argue a point but more trying to set us up so you can hit us with insults perhaps to make yourself feel better or more superior. In any case you being nationalistic yourself. We know there are things wrong in our country, but we always try to fix them. At least we have a voice. Can’t say that about the oppresive regimes you seem to think are a-ok.
Ah , first those Guantanamo inmates were all terrorists, then I pulled it all out of my ass, and now I do not have to deal with Americans if you are all such bad people and I only want to insult patriotric Americans.
[/quote]
I never made any assertion as to who is in Guantanimo, you made a statement referencing something I have never heard about before. I can assure you they are not chior boys in there. Perhaps, you wouldn’t mind having them as neighbors, but I would. Second, we are fighting a war which is a dirty business. The U.S.'s biggest mistake is that people know about it. It should be secret.
Second, you come out of no where, blasting us for all kinds of random things. Baiting us by asking us to explain this or that. Of course, your sitting there waiting to pounce and cease every opportunity to blast us. Only a fool would address your questions when the intentions are not to seek answers but to cease upon opportunies for ridicule.
Your next statement indicates you wallow in it.
Millions? Millions of Iranians have died at the hands of the U.S.? Now that’s what I call bullshit.
Currency flutuations are quite normal, it was high now it’s low, and it will be high agiain. I don’t see the link between a falling dollar, stealing from allies, (huh?) and a reference to 9/11. WTF are you talkin about? On second thought, nevermind, I don’t care.
Again, what? Who says we don’t care about people dying? Perhaps if we cared less, this stupid conflict in Iraq would have been over.
[quote]
Who recognizes and handles all this?
Your presidential debates are on Youtube, remember and we, the rest of the world, cannot ignore the 400lbs gorilla that might mean well but is a tad clumsy.[/quote]
Again, what? So our presidential candidates are on YouTube, so? 400 lbs gorilla indeed. You must have been drunk because you are not making sense.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Of course, I interpreted Pat’s “book me on the next flight to Tehran” as a call for aggression. [/quote]
How’s that a call for aggression? Am I missing something here?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Millions? Millions of Iranians have died at the hands of the U.S.? Now that’s what I call bullshit.
[/quote]
What about the millions who died in Lebanon due to Iran’s intervention in the 80’s? Hey, while we’re just throwing up numbers, I thought I’d get into the act.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Of course, I interpreted Pat’s “book me on the next flight to Tehran” as a call for aggression.
How’s that a call for aggression? Am I missing something here?[/quote]
Perhaps lixy believes commercial airliners are a legitimate weapon of war?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Millions? Millions of Iranians have died at the hands of the U.S.? Now that’s what I call bullshit.
What about the millions who died in Lebanon due to Iran’s intervention in the 80’s? Hey, while we’re just throwing up numbers, I thought I’d get into the act.[/quote]
I am sure the U.S. had something to do with it. Just like the Tsunami was a planned attack by Israel and the U.S. We apparently set off neclear bombs in the Indian Ocean to cause the tsunami because we wanted to have maximum impact on killing muslims (I got that peice of nonsense from Al-Jazeera shortly after the Tsunami.
There was nothing funny about the tsunami, but I had to laugh at that story. And that shit is presented as news in the middle east, great). Obviously, all we want to do is kill. Let kill everybody outside our borders!
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Millions? Millions of Iranians have died at the hands of the U.S.? Now that’s what I call bullshit.[/quote]
He never said millions of Iranians. He said millions of people died because of your military interventionism. Vietnam alone more than makes up for that number.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
lixy wrote:
Of course, I interpreted Pat’s “book me on the next flight to Tehran” as a call for aggression.
How’s that a call for aggression? Am I missing something here?
Perhaps lixy believes commercial airliners are a legitimate weapon of war?[/quote]
Good one Zap! Really, that line is priceless.
To answer Ghensis’ question, I specified that it was an interpretation. With all the talk about bombing Iran and him calling them “totalitarian morons”, it’s not at all far fetched that he refers to bombers when he says “flight”.
Pat, if you’re reading this, let us know where you stand on the attacking Iran issue. Thanks.