[quote]lixy wrote:
… stealing from thieves or raping rapers is OK.[/quote]
Now you are getting the hang of it!
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Yes, a dog barking at someone is torture. Or is playing loud music? I forget.[/quote]
I’m sure forgetting helps. You’re very good at it.
Right cause? Seems to me a “right cause” would be embraced by the world, or at the very least your allies, no? Iraq has been almost universally condemned since before it began. There are tons of causes a lot more right and much more worthwhile to pursue, yet I don’t see anyone falling over themselves trying to do so.
But, hey, keep lying to yourself if it helps. Or forgetting.
Actually, I was referring to your country still having many states that execute people for various crimes. You’re the only ones among Western Nations to still carry on that loving tradition.
But since your court system is perfect and mistake free, I guess it’s all good. And even if, by some unlucky chance, an innocent is put to sleep now and then, who’s gonna lose sleep over that, right? Certainly not Zzzzzzzzap.
Ah. You’re no better than Iran then.
To me, it seemed idiotic to assume “shining beacon of freedom” = “just like Iran” but apparently whatever evil you perpetrate is quite ok because Iran does the same and more of it.
My bad. Move along, nothing more to see here.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
.
One thing I am sure about gitmo, the people in it aren’t in it because they had western style haircuts or there burquas didn’t quite cover down to the big toe. I think they should close gitmo and put the prisoners in a less known location.
They were in it for all kinds of reasons.
Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$.
And you have proof of this I am sure. Please, at least display some links that demostrate this very “fact”.
You know I think the collective I.Q. of this forum is starting to hit rock bottom. The goal seems rather than discuss and argue, has become to berate and insult. Beat the guy next to you down. [/quote]
I need to proof that someone behind bars with no lawyer is innocent?
PLus there are hundreds of people that were released, you notized that right?
There were also people kidnapped and later released by the US, does the US media not cover that?
Google away, there is no chance that you will not find plenty of cases.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I think abiding by the treating when the other party doesn’t invalidates much of the purpose.
It’s not a “treating”, it’s a set of principles civilized people you should abide by even when the other side won’t return the favor. To say that Gitmo is non-issue is like saying that stealing from thieves or raping rapers is OK.[/quote]
It was a typo jackass and it is a treaty, not a set of principles.
Are you saying we are raping people at Gitmo? What is your issue with Gitmo? Should we close it and hide our prisoners as Pat pointed out?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
One thing I am sure about gitmo, the people in it aren’t in it because they had western style haircuts or there burquas didn’t quite cover down to the big toe. I think they should close gitmo and put the prisoners in a less known location.[/quote]
And you’re sure of that how? The public doesn’t know who’s there or why. And again, the justification of doing evil because other do the same or worse.
Aren’t you supposed to be better than the terrorists?
[quote]Somewhere colder, perhaps with no media access. That’s what the Russians do, anybody ever heard from the two terrorists that seized the school in Chechnya that weren’t killed in the assault? I thought not. Nobody is pittying their rights.
Poor terrorists, they are so put upon. [/quote]
Doesn’t the USA claim to be better than Russia and Iran? I keep seeing people defending what the US does by claiming that other countries do it too, oblivious to the fact that you claim those countries to be evil (Bush even puts Iran on his “Axis”). But if you can do anything they can, where’s the difference?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
Your moral position compared to Iran is this:
You are the bully, they are the victim.
Mossadegh, the Sha, Hussein…
I am glad you post stuff like this. It just reinforces my opinion that you are not to be taken seriously.[/quote]
You apparently missed my little USA-Iran history.
You intervened several times in their country, installing bloody dictatorships or encouraging other dictators to attack them, which cost millions of lives.
You do not disrespect me, you disrespect reality…
I do recognize that as your signature move though, if arguments stray too far from the official US version.
How many lives did you cost them over the last 60 years and how many lives did they cost you?
Who is the bad guy Zap?
PS: Think of me what you will, at least I can do better than “lalala, everything new to me is graaaacyyy”…
[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Yes, a dog barking at someone is torture. Or is playing loud music? I forget.
I’m sure forgetting helps. You’re very good at it.
WTF is wrong with an invasion if it is the right cause?
Right cause? Seems to me a “right cause” would be embraced by the world, or at the very least your allies, no? Iraq has been almost universally condemned since before it began. There are tons of causes a lot more right and much more worthwhile to pursue, yet I don’t see anyone falling over themselves trying to do so.
But, hey, keep lying to yourself if it helps. Or forgetting.
And who is getting the capital punishment? Saddam? Boo hoo. Cry me a river.
Actually, I was referring to your country still having many states that execute people for various crimes. You’re the only ones among Western Nations to still carry on that loving tradition.
But since your court system is perfect and mistake free, I guess it’s all good. And even if, by some unlucky chance, an innocent is put to sleep now and then, who’s gonna lose sleep over that, right? Certainly not Zzzzzzzzap.
If you think these things flip flop our moral position when compared to Iran and the rest I don’t know what to say.
Ah. You’re no better than Iran then.
To me, it seemed idiotic to assume “shining beacon of freedom” = “just like Iran” but apparently whatever evil you perpetrate is quite ok because Iran does the same and more of it.
My bad. Move along, nothing more to see here.
[/quote]
I will never understand this kind of shit. This is a thread that was supposed to be about how Iran is mistreating its people you try to turn it around and claim the US mistreats people. When I point out that Canada is no innocent either you cry that it is not about Canada.
If you want to talk about the death penalty start a thread, I will be happy to discuss it.
If you want to talk about the justification for the liberation of Iraq and the 43 countries that participated start a thread. It has been done to death but I am sure people will post.
If you want to rant about everything that irks you about the US don’t try to involve me. It is tiresome.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
When the other side is beheading and drilling holes in skulls I get infuriated when people try to put the bad guys and the US on the same moral ground.[/quote]
Yeah, yeah, we get it. When fighting barbarians, you can become barbarians yourselves. Although I still have some trouble with how when they torture, it’s “infuriating,” but when you do it, it’s “moral.”
Yes, being good and upholding moral principles is so hard. Why bother.
What’s your take on how some innocents caught in the situation should be dealt with? Other than “too bad, Ahmed, sucks to be you.”
Good thing you’re not doing it incorrectly then, I guess.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
That is bullshit. We released all the “innocent” ones and many went back to their terrorist ways.[/quote]
You keep saying this. Do you any references to back that up?
And if mistakes where made in releasing the innocent ones, how do you know mistakes weren’t made in those that got kept?
Where are the checks and balances here?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
If you want to rant about everything that irks you about the US don’t try to involve me. It is tiresome.[/quote]
Don’t let the cognitive dissonance stop you, fight it Zap, fight it!
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
Your moral position compared to Iran is this:
You are the bully, they are the victim.
Mossadegh, the Sha, Hussein…
I am glad you post stuff like this. It just reinforces my opinion that you are not to be taken seriously.
You apparently missed my little USA-Iran history.
You intervened several times in their country, installing bloody dictatorships or encouraging other dictators to attack them, which cost millions of lives.
…
[/quote]
And how many have interfered with the US? How much money have the Soviets spent to destabilize the US economy and mess with our politics? How much has Iran spent? How many counterfeit dollars has Iran printed to try to fuck with us?
How many presidents and politicians have we had assassinated by people with obvious and strong foreign contact?
And on and on.
Iran is fucked up. It is their own fault. No one else’s.
Splash, splash, splash. The sound you hear is Zap washing his hands.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I will never understand this kind of shit. This is a thread that was supposed to be about how Iran is mistreating its people you try to turn it around and claim the US mistreats people. When I point out that Canada is no innocent either you cry that it is not about Canada.[/quote]
Here we go, avoiding the arguments again.
How about this for shit no one understands: Why do you care about Iran mistreating its people - something you can do absolutely nothing about - when you don’t care about the wrongs in your own country - where you’d have more of a chance of righting a wrong?
What’s worse, is that you’ll go out of your way to highlight everything that’s wrong with Iran and work just as hard to pretend that all is right with America. Neither is true. Iran is not the epitome of evil, nor is America a paragon of virtue.
Anyway, all this started because you apparently can’t fathom why some people think America is bad. If that’s really the case, if you think America never does any wrong, well then, have fun living in your G.I. Joe world.[/quote]
[i]The new “plan to increase security in society” – which is limited to Tehran but will later extend nationwide – comes after a pre-summer drive by the police resulted in thousands of warnings and hundreds of arrests.
“We have vowed to continue the campaign to reinforce the plan to increase security in society with new personnel who have received the necessary training,” the Tehran police head of information Mehdi Ahmadi told reporters as the first police forces were dispatched.
“This notably includes the use of 100 female police officers,” he added.
He said the campaign would target women who were badly veiled, wore overly tight overcoats, sported excessively short trousers and were “dressed like models.”
“As far as men are concerned we will act against those who have Western-style haircuts and clothing. We are also going to act against clothes shops and hairdressers.” [/i]
This is a result of American foreign policy? Pat36, this is old news. This was originally enacted in March or something.
Authority telling it’s populace what to wear, what to look like and what to think sounds familiar, too. I’ve seen Woody Allen movies with this theme. 1984. North Korea, The Third Reich. CCCP. Lion’s Gate, David Koresh and Jim Jones.
[quote]orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
.
One thing I am sure about gitmo, the people in it aren’t in it because they had western style haircuts or there burquas didn’t quite cover down to the big toe. I think they should close gitmo and put the prisoners in a less known location.
They were in it for all kinds of reasons.
Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$.
And you have proof of this I am sure. Please, at least display some links that demostrate this very “fact”.
You know I think the collective I.Q. of this forum is starting to hit rock bottom. The goal seems rather than discuss and argue, has become to berate and insult. Beat the guy next to you down.
I need to proof that someone behind bars with no lawyer is innocent?
PLus there are hundreds of people that were released, you notized that right?
There were also people kidnapped and later released by the US, does the US media not cover that?
Google away, there is no chance that you will not find plenty of cases.
[/quote]
No, you stated exactly this:
"Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$
I am suggesting either A)this is a factiod that you had some encounter with from a source other than your ass. Or B) the source is your ass because you simply don’t know who or what is in any of our prisons and for what reason.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Are you saying we are raping people at Gitmo? What is your issue with Gitmo? Should we close it and hide our prisoners as Pat pointed out? [/quote]
Wah! You’ve got your head so up your ass that you’re ready to defend the undefendable.
The issue was raised in Congress this April and ended in a draw. That goes to show how legit’ it is when even your compatriots see it as a gulag.
Anyway, my problem with that “facility” is the fact that people may be held indefinitely without trial in violation of international law and common sense.
Shit, even your 2006 Bushie supreme court ruled against the administration’s claims that the prisoners were not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
Take a peek at the world’s public opinion once in a while. You’re bashed on Gitmo from Calcutta to Managua. The Brits are outraged by it. Even Powell (whom we all know has very little scruple) harshly criticized it.
If you got charges, put them on trial. Are transparency and presumption of innocence alien concepts to modern day America?
P.S: Don’t even get me started on Abu-Ghraib…
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
Your moral position compared to Iran is this:
You are the bully, they are the victim.
Mossadegh, the Sha, Hussein…
I am glad you post stuff like this. It just reinforces my opinion that you are not to be taken seriously.
You apparently missed my little USA-Iran history.
You intervened several times in their country, installing bloody dictatorships or encouraging other dictators to attack them, which cost millions of lives.
…
And how many have interfered with the US? How much money have the Soviets spent to destabilize the US economy and mess with our politics? How much has Iran spent? How many counterfeit dollars has Iran printed to try to fuck with us?
How many presidents and politicians have we had assassinated by people with obvious and strong foreign contact?
And on and on.
Iran is fucked up. It is their own fault. No one else’s. [/quote]
And again.
How many million dead on their side, how many dead on yours?
And you`re the good guys why exactly?
Nobody overthrew your government. Nobody installed a puppet regime in the US-Nobody pumped up Mexico until it could succesfully attack you.
If somebody would have you`d have nuked them.
Maybe that is why Iran can`t have nuclear devices of any kind.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
.
One thing I am sure about gitmo, the people in it aren’t in it because they had western style haircuts or there burquas didn’t quite cover down to the big toe. I think they should close gitmo and put the prisoners in a less known location.
They were in it for all kinds of reasons.
Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$.
And you have proof of this I am sure. Please, at least display some links that demostrate this very “fact”.
You know I think the collective I.Q. of this forum is starting to hit rock bottom. The goal seems rather than discuss and argue, has become to berate and insult. Beat the guy next to you down.
I need to proof that someone behind bars with no lawyer is innocent?
PLus there are hundreds of people that were released, you notized that right?
There were also people kidnapped and later released by the US, does the US media not cover that?
Google away, there is no chance that you will not find plenty of cases.
No, you stated exactly this:
"Reason number one so far seems to be being at the wrong place at the wrong time or having enemies that would gladly sell you for 5000$
I am suggesting either A)this is a factiod that you had some encounter with from a source other than your ass. Or B) the source is your ass because you simply don’t know who or what is in any of our prisons and for what reason.
[/quote]
B) is bad enough I suppose
and around 5000 per head was the number given by US forces, and more than one was incarcerated because the US cannot translate all those Arab names in proper English.
Hussein, Hussain, tomatoe, tomahto…
I am not bothering to post my links again because I have allready done so dozens of times on this board.
The hundreds of people released after years of imprisonment are telling their stories.
Why trust me, go ahead and so so me research.
Oh well:
Bounties:
Kidnappings:
http://www.asil.org/insights/2005/07/insights050707.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30275-2005Mar12.html
Shit, that was easy.
Do I need to dig deeper?
I seem, to remember a case in Bosnia-Herzegowina and one in Scandinavia?
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I will never understand this kind of shit. This is a thread that was supposed to be about how Iran is mistreating its people you try to turn it around and claim the US mistreats people. [/quote]
Nope. It went like this:
- Pat states the obvious by telling us how oppressive Tehran’s regime is.
- I say that a lot worse is done by your friends in Saudi Arabia.
- You then claim that it’s OK to support the Al Sauds (and their no-women-behind-the-wheel policy), and that whatever you do, people will find faults in your behavior, implying that the criticisms are irrational.
- Pookie rebukes your position with his usual most cohesive and eloquent posting style (This forum would be a darker place without your wits and intellect).
Bottom line, next time you wanna talk about how bad a country is, make sure you’re not involved with and directly supporting even worse regimes. It’s pure hypocrisy when you do.
So, what your saying is we can’t say anything bad about Iran, because we support Saudi Arabia? What kind of nonsense in that?
“whatever you do, people will find faults in your behavior”
This is true. You have proven it over and over again.
“Bottom line, next time you wanna talk about how bad a country is, make sure you’re not involved with and directly supporting even worse regimes. It’s pure hypocrisy when you do.”
You need to follow this advice as well.