Intermittent Fasting

[quote]lock_solid wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
i personally, and am pretty confident CT would say the same, would never weight train in a fasted state. too catabolic and there’s nothing to help you recover afterward.

also, i think fasting can have its place BUT should not be abused[/quote]

My thoughts exactly MAF. Catabolism would seem completely unavoidable without some kind of supplementation at least. To be honest, that particular claim bothered me and the referencing was suscept at best on some matters and pretty much square pegged to suit his claims. I dont disagree that supplemented fasting has a place… just how big a place is the question. And for the average person, i think its guaranteed to be abused. The “more is better” mentality will see to that.
[/quote]

I think Martin (authour of IF) reccomends some form of peri nutrition still (BCAAS at the very least) just not a huge meal pre training—save it for after.

[quote]Cheeky_Kea wrote:

[quote]lock_solid wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
i personally, and am pretty confident CT would say the same, would never weight train in a fasted state. too catabolic and there’s nothing to help you recover afterward.

also, i think fasting can have its place BUT should not be abused[/quote]

My thoughts exactly MAF. Catabolism would seem completely unavoidable without some kind of supplementation at least. To be honest, that particular claim bothered me and the referencing was suscept at best on some matters and pretty much square pegged to suit his claims. I dont disagree that supplemented fasting has a place… just how big a place is the question. And for the average person, i think its guaranteed to be abused. The “more is better” mentality will see to that.
[/quote]

I think Martin (authour of IF) reccomends some form of peri nutrition still (BCAAS at the very least) just not a huge meal pre training—save it for after. [/quote]

yeah, i really like the IF approach and used it before i even knew it was an actual ‘diet’. i just dont like the idea of consuming the bulk of calories apart from the workout. its just not ideal IMO but i guess thats just how some peoples schedule workout.

His usual recommendation is to make the feeding window part of the post workout window, so you can take advantage of workout nutrition.

[quote]captaincalvert wrote:
There’s one thing I forgot to mention which in the end is what has made me decide to stick with this for good. I used to have poor digestion with lots of gas and bloat. The combination of cutting all gluten sources from my diet, and the fasting has made everything perfect. No more fat lumps in the stool. No more gas. For the first time in my life everything is regular, always.
It could be just the removal of gluten, but I’ve tried cutting significantly in bread before, and didn’t get a result anywhere near as good as this.[/quote]

I started doing a Warrior Diet type eating plan about 3 months ago myself. And just like you, I have noticed a huge reduction in any type of digestive problems. I may have lost some muscle and strength initially but now I am just as strong but 10 lbs. lighter. I am going to follow this type of eating plan for the rest of my life.

Also, on another positive note, I have noticed that my skin is much clearer and healthier looking. I guess not eating for 16 hours preps the body to absorb nutrients much better.

[quote]Grungern wrote:
This stuff makes your body more senstive to prepre for some serious, hmm, drowsyness after the big meals. Going from fastet to superbig meal makes u want to sleep :P[/quote]
I’ve been IFing lately, and it does work for me. The only two drawbacks are that 1) even though I’m hungry when I do eat, sometimes it’s hard to get down such a big meal, and 2) what Grungern said: I get really tired after eating the first big meal.

My solution, and I only do this on non-training days, is to have a protein shake (50g whey, splash of low-fat milk and water) at around 2 pm, then a huge meal at 5 pm. I’m much less tired after the big meal if it isn’t the first meal of the day, and it’s easier to get down too.

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]Clutch wrote:

Hey RS,

Have a look at this article on skipping breakfast…
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=291

Also have a look at these reads on a more conservative (16/8) version of IF… http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/interviews/intermittent-fasting—to-feast-or-not-to-feast-an-interview-with-martin-berkhan/

Cheers
Clutch
[/quote]

Skipping breakfast and eating late to get lean - Has anyone tried an approach like this? Does it work?

I’ve read about high cortisol in the morning elsewhere and these articles from clutch on the dangerously hardcore site seem to make some sense.

Here’s part 2:
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=303

Part 1 link again:
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=291
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=291

[/quote]

Yes I use intermittent fasting as detailed by Martin Berkhan on his site:

I’ve been working on this diet for 2 weeks now and its very effective for me. I had been on a low carb diet for nearly two months and became very lean, but i was miserable and exhausted. I was combining HIT cardio with this low carb diet and this meant my cortisol levels were chronically high.

With intermittent fasting I eat much more carbohydrates on workout days post workout which has given me more energy, improved my mood, and from what i read it seems my cortisol and leptin levels have returned to normal. And im losing much more fat than before, i had hit a plateau, but im now starting to get veins popping out on my abs, which id never had before with any other diet or training strategy.

I have also pretty much dropped cardio out of my routine, after 12 hours of fasting going for a brisk walk is more than enough cardio to take advantage of the fat burn. My fasts last 16 hours and then i refeed for 8 hours as Martin suggests, its fantastic! I never feel hungry, and really get to enjoy eating what seems like a huge amount of food in the 8 feeding hours.

I have been watching macronutrients and calories in the 8 hours feeding and im finding it hard to actually eat more than -500kcal off my BMR. Thats something i never thought i would be able to say, i usually have a seemingly unsuppressible appetite. Ive been eating at least 1g protein per lb of bodyweight and its worked very well to preserve muscle, in fact if anything ive gained strength. The best thing about Intermittent Fasting is the fact that its so easy to maintain, meaning i dont feel like im on a diet at all! So i could very easily stick to this routine indefinately, subsequently staying lean indefinately.

Also, check out Martin’s blog about alcohol and fat intake, ive found it incredibly useful, allowing me to still party as hard as ever with none of the guilt, its almost too good to be true, but ive tried it and it seems to work.

[quote]captaincalvert wrote:

[quote]Skipping breakfast and eating late to get lean - Has anyone tried an approach like this? Does it work?

I’ve read about high cortisol in the morning elsewhere and these articles from clutch on the dangerously hardcore site seem to make some sense.

Here’s part 2:
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=303

Part 1 link again:
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=291
dangerouslyhardcore.com/?p=291 [/quote]

Yes. Like I said above. That’s basically what I’m doing at the moment. It works, and I feel fine.[/quote]

Started with skipping breakfast and back-loading carbs/calories. This has progressed into a sort of play-it-by-ear (autoregulated?) approach. I do tend to have one meal a few hours after waking. Everything else is crammed in a 4-6 hour window during/after my workout (which usually takes me to an hour before bed).

I seem to avoid any distracting hunger signals with the one meal, and energy levels are great. I’ve NEVER had a problem working out on an empty stomach, and in the exceptional case that it feels really empty I’ll eat a FINiBar an hour before. The key is eating enough at night.

This is coming from a guy who swallowed the six meals a day mantra hook, line and sinker.

[quote]timmypectorals wrote:
I’ve been working on this diet for 2 weeks now and its very effective for me.

…My fasts last 16 hours and then i refeed for 8 hours as Martin suggests, its fantastic! I never feel hungry, and really get to enjoy eating what seems like a huge amount of food in the 8 feeding hours.
[/quote]

Timmy,

When do you strength train with this protocol? Do you use completely fasted training or do you have any meals prior to strength training?

Do you incorporate any peri-workout nutrition with his version of IF?

What strength training protocol are you using? (I know Martin has recommendations on his site.)

Thanks

His version uses BCAA before training.

Timmypecs= your avatar creeps me out.

[quote]Roygion wrote:

[quote]timmypectorals wrote:
I’ve been working on this diet for 2 weeks now and its very effective for me.

…My fasts last 16 hours and then i refeed for 8 hours as Martin suggests, its fantastic! I never feel hungry, and really get to enjoy eating what seems like a huge amount of food in the 8 feeding hours.
[/quote]

Timmy,

When do you strength train with this protocol? Do you use completely fasted training or do you have any meals prior to strength training?

Do you incorporate any peri-workout nutrition with his version of IF?

What strength training protocol are you using? (I know Martin has recommendations on his site.)

Thanks
[/quote]

like mch60360 said i use BCAA about 10 mins before my workouts (nothing else, and usually try to wirkout in the 15th hour of the fast) and then have my first meal immediately following the workout. Im also trying out Martin’s pyramid training as he suggests, which is going well. Sorry about the avatar mch60360 ha

[quote]timmypectorals wrote:
like mch60360 said i use BCAA about 10 mins before my workouts (nothing else, and usually try to wirkout in the 15th hour of the fast) and then have my first meal immediately following the workout. Im also trying out Martin’s pyramid training as he suggests, which is going well. [/quote]

Have you experienced any weakness or fatigue from training fasted? I haven’t had the courage to do it yet with Squats, Deads, etc, as I am starving by the 16th fast hour? Perhaps that will change.

How long after your training do you eat a meal? I assume from your comments you take no post-workout drink.

The other concern is the volume of a training routine, applied when in a fasted state. Martin’s RPT is pretty low volume, comparatively, so seems one reasonable choice to do while fasted. While protocols like CT’s or traditional bodybuilding routines, contain much higher volumes, and these might drain a fully-fasted body much more.

[quote]Roygion wrote:

[quote]timmypectorals wrote:
like mch60360 said i use BCAA about 10 mins before my workouts (nothing else, and usually try to wirkout in the 15th hour of the fast) and then have my first meal immediately following the workout. Im also trying out Martin’s pyramid training as he suggests, which is going well. [/quote]

Have you experienced any weakness or fatigue from training fasted? I haven’t had the courage to do it yet with Squats, Deads, etc, as I am starving by the 16th fast hour? Perhaps that will change.

How long after your training do you eat a meal? I assume from your comments you take no post-workout drink.

The other concern is the volume of a training routine, applied when in a fasted state. Martin’s RPT is pretty low volume, comparatively, so seems one reasonable choice to do while fasted. While protocols like CT’s or traditional bodybuilding routines, contain much higher volumes, and these might drain a fully-fasted body much more.[/quote]

No i feel really good during my workouts, i feel if anything a little stronger. If you just go in there mentally ready to dominate the weight i find i feel very energetic. Although, im no stranger to working out fasted or near fasted. I was for a few months on a very low carb diet and then i would go into the gym and do a weights session supersetted with HIT cardio, which was very tough, so right now i feel great as ive dropped the HIT cardio.

I try and do my workouts in the 15th hour of the fast so that when i finish the workout i can break the fast by downing a protein shake and eat a banana immediately, then as soon as i get home i cook up a big meal high in carbs and protein so im eating that meal maybe an hour to an hour and a half after the workout finishes.

With regards to training volume, i dont worry to much about overdoing it. I work hard and try to push myself in the workouts but i just listen to my body, if i feel like im in need of an extra rest day here and there i will throw them in, and if i feel weak in a session or sore i will cut the workout short. I usually do legs and chest one day, then core and back another (then throw in arms and shoulders in another workout where i see fit) I usually do 3 or 4 exercies for each muscle group (minimum of 2 exercises) and i like to mix the type of lifting i do to keep things exciting. sometimes i will go and do german volume training (10 sets of 10) and others i will go heavier and apply the pyramid training. I let the leading principle of my training be fun as opposed to concentrating too much on science or rep ranges, if im having fun i push harder.

[quote]timmypectorals wrote:
No i feel really good during my workouts, i feel if anything a little stronger. If you just go in there mentally ready to dominate the weight i find i feel very energetic. Although, im no stranger to working out fasted or near fasted. I was for a few months on a very low carb diet and then i would go into the gym and do a weights session supersetted with HIT cardio, which was very tough, so right now i feel great as ive dropped the HIT cardio.

I try and do my workouts in the 15th hour of the fast so that when i finish the workout i can break the fast by downing a protein shake and eat a banana immediately, then as soon as i get home i cook up a big meal high in carbs and protein so im eating that meal maybe an hour to an hour and a half after the workout finishes.
[/quote]

Thanks. I understand your post-workout feeding; it makes good sense to have that immediate intake and then the high carb/high protein meal soon after. I think as I get more used to the 16h fast, I might try training fasted (strength work). In your experience, does fasted strength training have any body comp advantages–that you have actually realized–over say, having one meal some hours prior?

Also, does anyone here know if that guy in the deadlift video (I posted on the Pulse Feast / LeanGains Principles thread) is actually Berkhan?

As for advantage over having a meal before, tough for me to say to be honest in terms of body composition. Changes in body composition are so gradual and are often disguised by water retention, so id be lying if i said i could tell a difference either way really. Having said that, I believe workouts in fasted state work well for me, i feel strong and lean, even if its just a placebo it seems to be working for me. Martin talks about the scientific reasons why fasted training (with 10g BCAA before your workout) can be beneficial in terms of the training becoming a greater stressor or greater stimulant and the body overcompensating becoming hyperanabolic to make up for the lack of nutrients (which makes the high carb and protein intake after potentially so much more effective).

Not sure about the deadlift video, i think its him though.

I have a question for any 16/8’ers.

I am trying to recomp currently, and have been eating on average 2500 cals a day, the 5 meal a day approach with workout nutrition.

I am trying IF, and started Sunday. My last meal on Saturday was about 10pm. I ate again Sunday 3pm (not quite 16hrs) a 1200 calorie meal, and then had a 600 calorie meal at 6:30, and then another at 9:30pm.

Today I got up at 7am for work. I had coffee with 2 tsp heavy whipping cream and splenda (should not interfere with fast). I also had 10g BCAA upon waking (I know, not needed, just did.)

For lunch at noon, I had 50g protein from grilled chicken, 2 cups steamed brocoli, 1/4 cup mixed nuts. This was about 500 calories.

At 3pm, I ate again. I know shakes aren’t recommended, but I have to at work. I had 50g protein blend, 1 cup berries, 2 caps fish oil, 2 caps evening primrose oil.

I know this isn’t what is recommended on LeanGains, but I had my normal workout nutrition:
5:45 Preworkout
30g WMS
30g blend (10g PeptoPro, 6g extra Leucine, 6g Citrulline Malate, 6g Creatine Mono, 4g Beta Alanine)
Start warming up at 6:00
6:15-7:15 training
2 scoops Gatorade powder
2 scoops BCAA Plus (16g BCAA)

I come home for dinner, and I am not even hungry. I force fed myself and probably barely only managed to get 1000 calories in by 9pm.

This only puts me at around 2000 calories in a 9 hour feeding window.

Questions-
Since I hadn’t trained since Friday, will I adjust and get hungrier post workout?
Did my workout nutrition blunt my post workout hunger?
Any opinions/criticisms/etc?

Thanks

[quote]gabex wrote:
Questions-
Since I hadn’t trained since Friday, will I adjust and get hungrier post workout?
Did my workout nutrition blunt my post workout hunger?
Any opinions/criticisms/etc?
Thanks[/quote]

In the interest of seeing the results myself, I have now had four 16/8 days. I made certain, no matter what, to get in the same calories and nutrients I had before. Each day the morning fast got easier, and yesterday wasn’t a problem at all, could even have extended it.

My version uses 1 meal a few hours before training (eat at noon). Haven’t had the nerve to deadlift and squat fasted, and don’t think I ever will lift fasted.

To your question, try having a lighter peri-workout feeding–like just BCAA in water. That might not fill you up the same and enable you to take in more calories.

I would avoid the Gatorade, it is very filling (I’ve done that myself). Just BCAA and water, and see if that helps. Start drinking it 15mins prior, a little during, and the rest after. Then eat soon as possible after. (I myself cannot eat a large meal immediately after and wait about 45 mins.)

In any case, I think the reason folks lose weight with IF is that they simply take in fewer calories, and that there is nothing special about the fast per se. But I’m just starting the IF approach, so time will tell. I do enjoy the added alertness in the morning and the convenience of not having morning meals.

Yeah my rationale for doing IF is-
easier mornings
not having to eat every 2-3 hours
at work without worrying about eating the whole time during each break I get

and I wanted to test out the ideas supporting IF in regard to
hormonal responses
nutrient partitioning

I know the term “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” … but I was doing fine on a recomp before this. In 5 weeks, I lost 1/4 inch around each measurement on my waist, while gaining 1/4 inch on my arms, maintaining size in my thighs, and hips. I just thought I would give this a go.

I fast intermittently with a lean gains approach for about 6 months, gained muscle and reduced fat. I have always trained fasted (with only 10 g bcaa supplementation) and have seen no muscle breakdown. given, the 10g bcaa is a MUST if you are training fasted. otherwise, break fast at the 16th hour and workout 2 hrs later.

I just got free online book from Berardi thru Joel Jamiesons mailing list (look for 8weeksout). Berardi tried out several different varations of the IF in 6 months. He gives his opinion about each variation. Ultimately he saw IF as good way to loose weight and picked up 2 best choices, which were either 1 whole day fast or the leangains fast (16/8).

There is also his before and after pics and I can say, that the difference was amazing. His goal was only to loose weight for sprinting purpose. One “problem” he saw with the leangains fast against his goal was getting heavier while loosing fat. I bet many of us just loves that.

I’ve done the leangains as well as possible. My fast is only 14/10 which isn’t ideal. I can’t change my training time (MA classes) and there is a certain time I can get to lunch (work related), so 14 h fast is the best I can do at the moment. I’ve had good success, but it good be even better with the suggested 16/8.

I train for powerlifting, so my goals may be a bit different, but here’s my experience.

I started doing a 16/8 IF about 4 months ago. I improved my body composition with no loss of strength. I lost about 5 lbs of fat in 2 months without eating particularly clean just by moving it all into an 8 hour window. My training at the time was a rehab cycle, so I wasn’t even training all that hard. My energy did not change noticeably - I spent about 4 months beforehand systematically eliminating foods that my body doesn’t tolerate, and I think that made a much larger change in my subjective energy.

However, it didn’t work for me for a lot of logistic reasons. I train with a crew at 7pm during the week, so getting home at 9pm and eating for 8 hours was out of the question. I found that a feeding window from 2pm to 10pm worked pretty well, but I just couldn’t find the happy medium between eating too much before training and being sluggish and eating too much after training and not being able to sleep.

On off days I also had a bad habit of getting stuck at work or in my lab until pretty late and missing the opening of my feeding window - dismissing hunger pangs has never been hard for me, and once I get past the first wave I can fast all day.

After about 2 months of 16/8, I was still getting hungry at 11 or 12 pretty consistently, so now I eat my first and largest meal around then, eat again sometime in the afternoon, then eat something small in the evening. On training days I have shakes around my training and a small meal after. If I’m really hungry, I might have a massive meal after training, but I have to listen to my body or I risk not being able to get to sleep.

For example, this is what monday looked like:
Meal 1 (11am): 1 lb grassfed beef patties, 5 strips of bacon, 3 sweet potatoes, 1 scoop rice protein, kefir
Meal 2 (3-4pm): 0.5 lb pork chops with applesauce, apple with 3-4 tblspoons peanut butter, 1 scoop rice protein, maybe some greek yogurt or kefir
Meal 3 (7-8pm): 0.5 lb pork chops with applesauce, green beans with real salt and grass-fed butter, maybe some greek yogurt or kefir

I can’t have milk proteins or eggs daily or I would. I eat wheat very rarely and other grains sparingly. I also eat other random things between meals - terra chips, oatmeal, nuts, basically whatever. As long as I avoid foods my body doesn’t tolerate, I don’t worry about eating clean, just eating enough - but avoiding wheat means avoiding about 99% of junk foods so I can’t always dirty it up as much as I would like when I need to get calories in.

Sometimes meal 2 is the biggest meal (if I have to be physically in my lab around lunch and I don’t have enough food prepared for meal 1), but I feel best if meal 1 is largest.