I was looking at this recently due to the skinny fat article on T-Nation a couple of weeks back. If you go the leangains route, your post workout nutrition is an hour after training! Surely that is detrimental to overall gains and fat loss.
Anybody here use intermittent fasting/leangains and stuck to post workout nutrition an hour after, or did you throw back a carb/protein shake immediately after your work out?
an hour isnt much in the grand scheme of things
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
an hour isnt much in the grand scheme of things[/quote]
x2
I run IF and I sometimes eat right after my workouts, but donāt sweat it when I canāt.
For the record, I donāt train completely fasted- I take Humapro throughout the day prior to my workout and have a couple scoops of it around my workout as well (and a scoop of Biotestās BCAA structured peptides a short time before my workout). My carbohydrate timing around workouts varies, but I make sure to at least have the BCAAs/EAAs, so I donāt worry about wasting away or anything.
[quote]JJSchmidt wrote:
I was looking at this recently due to the skinny fat article on T-Nation a couple of weeks back. If you go the leangains route, your post workout nutrition is an hour after training! Surely that is detrimental to overall gains and fat loss.
Anybody here use intermittent fasting/leangains and stuck to post workout nutrition an hour after, or did you throw back a carb/protein shake immediately after your work out?
[/quote]
Not sure what article you are talking about but I have adopted some of Martin Berkhans Leangains principles to great effect. I have meals prior to working out so there is absolutely no detrimental effect to having to wait a short while after working out before my next meal. If anything you will lose more fat this way. I prefer waiting awhile after working out because a. if the workout was intense enough I can feel pretty nauseous or just not hungry at all for a brief time. b. I believe digestion is comprimised if you are still really amped up from training and think a little time to relax is a better long term strategy.
caveats: I think Keiferās carb backloading is better suited to mass gains while still embracing the benefits of leangains style fasting. Something that really made a huge difference in my strength in the gym while losing weight on leangains was adopting some of Keifers ideas and going low carb prior to training and adding coconut oil preworkout. Doing this my workouts never suffer even when low carbing on low calories.
It is doubtful the human body is so fragile that it will deflate its own muscle mass like a popped balloon if not fed immediately after exertion. If it were, our ancestors could never have survived to give rise to us. Ancestral hunters would quite likely have been adapted to hunt in a fasted state and likely would have often taken more than an hour to carry the food home and prepare it after this exertion.
(By the way, why do the Leangains people say they are āfastingā when they are just doing what a normal person calls āskipping breakfastā?)
[quote]seekonk wrote:
It is doubtful the human body is so fragile that it will deflate its own muscle mass like a popped balloon if not fed immediately after exertion. If it were, our ancestors could never have survived to give rise to us. Ancestral hunters would quite likely have been adapted to hunt in a fasted state and likely would have often taken more than an hour to carry the food home and prepare it after this exertion.
[/quote]
thatās a bit different than going for optimal muscle gain 
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
[quote]seekonk wrote:
It is doubtful the human body is so fragile that it will deflate its own muscle mass like a popped balloon if not fed immediately after exertion. If it were, our ancestors could never have survived to give rise to us. Ancestral hunters would quite likely have been adapted to hunt in a fasted state and likely would have often taken more than an hour to carry the food home and prepare it after this exertion.
[/quote]
thatās a bit different than going for optimal muscle gain ;)[/quote]
No argument there. But it does favour less fat gain. Optimal muscle gain comes with substantial fat gain. Really depends on ones goals. I think once you are past your newbie gains this can work very well for maintaining leaness and adding a little muscle.
From what I remember I read that you keep PWO nutrition to an hour PWO to allow your body to use up the stuff (I think it was free fatty acids) that is/are floating around in the blood.
I know itās vague but did anyone else happen to read about the same thing?
[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
From what I remember I read that you keep PWO nutrition to an hour PWO to allow your body to use up the stuff (I think it was free fatty acids) that is/are floating around in the blood.
I know itās vague but did anyone else happen to read about the same thing? [/quote]
That is the reasoningā¦if the body is fed to soon they may be re-absorbed as bodyfat. If I recall correctly they advocate a protein only feeding at about 30 minutes post. The thinking is you can extend the āsensitivityā period if carbs are withheld for a period after the workout.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
From what I remember I read that you keep PWO nutrition to an hour PWO to allow your body to use up the stuff (I think it was free fatty acids) that is/are floating around in the blood.
I know itās vague but did anyone else happen to read about the same thing? [/quote]
That is the reasoningā¦if the body is fed to soon they may be re-absorbed as bodyfat. If I recall correctly they advocate a protein only feeding at about 30 minutes post. The thinking is you can extend the āsensitivityā period if carbs are withheld for a period after the workout. [/quote]
This sounds more like Oriās work than anything Ive read from Martin.
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
From what I remember I read that you keep PWO nutrition to an hour PWO to allow your body to use up the stuff (I think it was free fatty acids) that is/are floating around in the blood.
I know itās vague but did anyone else happen to read about the same thing? [/quote]
That is the reasoningā¦if the body is fed to soon they may be re-absorbed as bodyfat. If I recall correctly they advocate a protein only feeding at about 30 minutes post. The thinking is you can extend the āsensitivityā period if carbs are withheld for a period after the workout. [/quote]
This sounds more like Oriās work than anything Ive read from Martin. [/quote]
Also advocated by kiefer in CBL. the PWO shake is 1 hour after lifting is over.
[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
From what I remember I read that you keep PWO nutrition to an hour PWO to allow your body to use up the stuff (I think it was free fatty acids) that is/are floating around in the blood.
I know itās vague but did anyone else happen to read about the same thing? [/quote]
That is the reasoningā¦if the body is fed to soon they may be re-absorbed as bodyfat. If I recall correctly they advocate a protein only feeding at about 30 minutes post. The thinking is you can extend the āsensitivityā period if carbs are withheld for a period after the workout. [/quote]
This sounds more like Oriās work than anything Ive read from Martin. [/quote]
Also advocated by kiefer in CBL. the PWO shake is 1 hour after lifting is over. [/quote]
I meant more the protein only thing. both leangains and CBL advocate heavy carbs at this point but I didnt know CBL suggested waiting an hour before eating.
Gl:itch.e, I was talking about the skinny fat for ectomorphs article by Anthony Mychal that was on T-Nation earlier this year. The author suggested carb cycling to bulk up for the skinny fat. I would fall into that category; when i bulk, i get a very fat stomach, but little muscle growth elsewhereā¦ I followed the authors follow up Articles online, where he advocates the lean gains approach or something similar.
But surely, in order to put on muscle mass, (the window of opportunity is within 20 minās of training to consume a post workout meal) I was thinking of taking in 40-50gr of Isolate and 20-40 gr of fast digesting carbs directly after workout, then have a solid meal of rice/potatoes and chicken/fish an hour later.
[quote]JJSchmidt wrote:
Gl:itch.e, I was talking about the skinny fat for ectomorphs article by Anthony Mychal that was on T-Nation earlier this year. The author suggested carb cycling to bulk up for the skinny fat. I would fall into that category; when i bulk, i get a very fat stomach, but little muscle growth elsewhereā¦ I followed the authors follow up Articles online, where he advocates the lean gains approach or something similar.
But surely, in order to put on muscle mass, (the window of opportunity is within 20 minās of training to consume a post workout meal) I was thinking of taking in 40-50gr of Isolate and 20-40 gr of fast digesting carbs directly after workout, then have a solid meal of rice/potatoes and chicken/fish an hour later.
[/quote]
Ahh I see. I think youd do very well with Leangains or Carb Backloading. Dont stress the timing of your postworkout feeding. If you are eating throughout the day prior to your workout you still have plenty of nutrients feeding the muscles during and after the workout. Plus if you wait a little while after working out you are going to burn a little extra fat in theory. Something that would benefit your type. I have a BCAA drink during my workouts, but then after training its all solid food.
For you Id actually recommend Carb Backloading over straight Leangains. The low carb off days and the low carb until after training days would benefit you as far as fatloss and muscle gain is concerned.
I dont know if I really believe the whole skinny fat thing though. When you say you get a fat gut but little muscle this sounds like you are not eating right at all. Wat sort of foods do you eat daily? Timing of foods and types is one thing but you still need to nail the quality and quantity of these foods.
The leangains IF method worked great for my last weight cut. I used to cut down to 145, and decided to drop to 135 lbs for my last fight. This was my best cut, despite being the hardest Iāve ever tried.
Oh yea, and my biggest meal was dinner, around 8 pm, after my last training session. Usually 50 g lean protein, 150-200 g starchy carbs (sweet potato or white rice), fat as by-product from lean protein.
Everyone is different so thereās only one way to find out. Give it a try and post your results!
The whole post workout choke down food or your shake immediately post workout was solely based on a study testing over night Fasted guys weight training. if you eat anything before the gym, you can relax on the immediately choking down a meal as you walk out of the gym.
and where do you see eat 1 hour later?
I see fasted state
12-1 PM: Training
1 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal of the day).
that looks like heās gym to home and eating.
1 preworkout meal
12-1 PM or around lunch/noon: Pre-workout meal. Approximately 20-25% of daily total calorie intake.
3-4 PM: Training should happen a few hours after the pre-workout meal.
4-5 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal).
There was some relevant discussion in this recent thread.
EDIT: Specifically, I found this post interesting.
[quote]tolismann wrote:
Berardi commented on that article in his forum.
His reply was:
"The author is wrong about a lot of his physiological points.
But his practical strategies are fine for fat loss.
For example: the body IS NOT insulin resistant after exercise!
In fact MRI/MRS data suggest that the greatest period of glucose disposal in the muscle is immediately after exercise.
So much so that type II diabetics have normal glucose disposal for the brief post-exercise window.
Also: carb intake doesnāt shut down fat burning post-exercise.
Fat is preferentially burned for a short period after exercise even in the presence of high insulin and carbs.
For fat loss, the plan in the article could workā¦ but only because it helps control calories and keep them lowerā¦ which leads to body fat losses."
PS: I deleted all the references to his forum and his coaching programs.[/quote]
Glitch.e, foods were good qualityā¦ the best, really. lean beef, chicken, turkey, oats and brown rice, green veg and a little fruit. Simple carbs post workout, with a isolate protein. I was eating every 2-3 hours, felt lethargic some days and bloated too. I seem to gain weight, but the few kgās are clearly around my mid section.
I know one should not care about abs during a bulk, but when they are well hidden behind a layer of fat, and no noticeable muscle gain in other areas, well thatās just depressingā¦ iāve tried 8 week bulks, 12 week bulks, god, Iāve even tried a full year bulk, only to feel like shit for most of the yearā¦ (maybe itās a hormonal thing, that is a separate issue altogether) Because my experiences of bulking have been so poor, the IF or Carb backloading sounds interestingā¦
I might follow your advice, and try CBL for a couple of months. Thanks.
My opinion is simply that āskinny fatā does not exist. Everybody stores fat when bulking. The difference relies in the fact that some are skinny, others are bigger.
Look.
A beginner weighing 160 lbs, squatting 150 lbs, with 40% muscle mass, will use far less energy than the 200 lbs guy with 50% muscle mass squatting 400 lbs raw. He WILL need to eat far less.
Thatās why when bulking that āskinny fatā guy will store fat and get a round belly and waist fat etc. The genetic excuse is not verified and wonāt lead you anywhere.
And thatās eventually when you donāt lift huge weight (and I am a beginner too), you should either not eat 3 tons of carbs and everything if you donāt want to get fat or either not give a fuck about your belly if you want to optimize your gains.
Considering this, I chose to use IF Leangains 16x8 personnally because I train 1st thing in the morning.
My plan is :
I eat low carb on rest days and 300 carbs on workout days
I lost fat and my weight is the same than before. So I guess I took muscle.
You can eat a lot in 2 / 3 meals with IF Leangains. Not sure itās the best way to go butā¦
Anyway my personal experience is that when I try to bulk I become fat more than I gain muscle. So I started to work on strength and heavy lift and guess what, with rather simple diet (just very high protein), I gain weight.
When you lift seriously, you will be able to go all out and gain less fat.
Just my opinion, open to critics.
Interesting Vince, interesting. How do you find (heavy) lifting without food? and when you say; 1pm eat - 9pm stop eating, do you mean one meal at 1 and another at 9? OR you eat shit loads between the hours of 1 and 9? Just curious.