Jtrin,
How is this waveload working out for you and your athletes? I assume you guys are hitting some PRs if this is a set up you like. Also, earlier in this thread you said you do an important circuit and a less important circuit. Do you add a less important circuit in after this one you outlined?
[quote]bigTR wrote:
Jtrin,
How is this waveload working out for you and your athletes? I assume you guys are hitting some PRs if this is a set up you like. Also, earlier in this thread you said you do an important circuit and a less important circuit. Do you add a less important circuit in after this one you outlined?[/quote]
Yeah, it’s been working pretty well, of course they are still pretty much beginners so most things would probably work for them as well. I’ve hit some PR’s, but then again I still consider myself pretty much a beginner. But yeah, working well and hittin some PR’s so far.
Yeah, I’ll usually do a “less important” or just straight-sets circuit after that. I’ve found that I can go one, MAYBE two lifts per session that are really CNS-intensive and then the rest just fatigue the muscles and try to keep them growing or at least not declining. Anything more than that and I feel it takes too long to recover, at least on the training scale I’m on.
[quote]bigTR wrote:
Squattin,
Thanks for all the help.
LD,
To learn about CFTS go to CharlieFrancis.com and read the archives or buy the CFTS ebook at the site. Regarding the ISOs I think it is best to do flexion (rows, etc)exercises in the PAP and extension exercicses (squat, RDL, etc) in the CJC.[/quote]
Great, I’ll look into that.
No problem BigTR
Help is what this forum is all about
One thing that’s been bugging me and what I wonder about a lot is, how strong is strong enough? As in, how do I know when I’ve reached the basic level of strength to switch to training focus to absorption?
There are claims that one should be able to squat 1.5-2x bodyweight, deadlift 2xbodyweight etc. I think Kelly Baggett mentioned that at least somewhere between 1.5-2xBW squat is needed before getting fancy with training.
Jumanji, I think you’ve touched on this subject as well in some thread, could you offer any assistance?
Of course, everybody else too…
DB mentioned in an article that max strength levels need not be as high as generally recommended, but I didn’t find any guidelines. This confused me up even more, as I’m thinking if I really should just simplify training and get to 1.5 or 2xBW squat and deadlift, or work slowly to bring up all qualities, with a bigger focus on max strength.
Also, if one would have his training focus on max strength, how would one make sure not to mess up firing patterns and become too slow in the process, possibly even improving on them. Restorative warmups/Recovery methods? I know doing your sport specific practice is needed, I’m just wondering how much additional stuff one should do.
LDizzle,
I think the reasons there are no guidelines is because it’s so individual. The old “little kids play hopscotch all the time, can they squat double bodyweight?” argument kicks in.
1.5x-2x bodyweight squat was recommended by Verkhoshansky for depth jumps of around .75 meters and depth drops of around 1 meter, I believe.
Obviously anybody (or at least most anybody) is capable of hopping off a 4" step and absorbing impact.
That being said, most people who can’t squat 1.5x bodyweight are simply not going to be all that fast or explosive, with the exception of athletes who are super rate-dominant and have practically no explosive strength deficit.
To try to answer the question about how to not become too slow, I think you hit the nail in the head when you said the answer could be in the restorative/warmup methods.
The warmup is something I’m trying to slowly add to and prioritize it more, both in my training and with my athletes. I think it should go from general to specific, as DB (and tons of others) have said. Start a couple bodyweight strength-endurance exercises (pushups, pull-ups, bear crawls, walking lunges, etc. etc.) and speed-endurance exercises (sub-max sprints, repetitive back and forth med ball throws over a sub-max distance, line hops, etc.) and work towards something more specific. If the training session is designed to bring up explosive strength, finish with some broad jumps, standing countermovement jumps, or med ball keg throws for distance. If the training is designed to bring up reactivity, maybe finish with some bounding, sub-max depth jumps, etc.
Dan John has talked about “the warmup is the workout” and I think more athletes should think about this. Maybe not to the extreme where performance levels are totally dropped during the training session, but even if you have induced a little fatigue in the warmup so that performance suffers just a bit, I think that is acceptable. I know for myself, especially doing max strength work, I’m so concerned with the weight I’m going to lift that I barely warm up for fear of inducing fatigue and not hitting or beating my max.
Alright that was kind of long and ranting and not quite on topic, but maybe I said something useful.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
One thing that’s been bugging me and what I wonder about a lot is, how strong is strong enough? As in, how do I know when I’ve reached the basic level of strength to switch to training focus to absorption?
Also, if one would have his training focus on max strength, how would one make sure not to mess up firing patterns and become too slow in the process, possibly even improving on them. Restorative warmups/Recovery methods? I know doing your sport specific practice is needed, I’m just wondering how much additional stuff one should do.
[/quote]
So if power is not improving then swithc to a strength template until strength plateaus or increases enough of your liking to switch back to a power cycle
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
LDizzle,
I think the reasons there are no guidelines is because it’s so individual. The old “little kids play hopscotch all the time, can they squat double bodyweight?” argument kicks in.
1.5x-2x bodyweight squat was recommended by Verkhoshansky for depth jumps of around .75 meters and depth drops of around 1 meter, I believe.
Obviously anybody (or at least most anybody) is capable of hopping off a 4" step and absorbing impact.
That being said, most people who can’t squat 1.5x bodyweight are simply not going to be all that fast or explosive, with the exception of athletes who are super rate-dominant and have practically no explosive strength deficit.
To try to answer the question about how to not become too slow, I think you hit the nail in the head when you said the answer could be in the restorative/warmup methods.
The warmup is something I’m trying to slowly add to and prioritize it more, both in my training and with my athletes. I think it should go from general to specific, as DB (and tons of others) have said. Start a couple bodyweight strength-endurance exercises (pushups, pull-ups, bear crawls, walking lunges, etc. etc.) and speed-endurance exercises (sub-max sprints, repetitive back and forth med ball throws over a sub-max distance, line hops, etc.) and work towards something more specific. If the training session is designed to bring up explosive strength, finish with some broad jumps, standing countermovement jumps, or med ball keg throws for distance. If the training is designed to bring up reactivity, maybe finish with some bounding, sub-max depth jumps, etc.
Dan John has talked about “the warmup is the workout” and I think more athletes should think about this. Maybe not to the extreme where performance levels are totally dropped during the training session, but even if you have induced a little fatigue in the warmup so that performance suffers just a bit, I think that is acceptable. I know for myself, especially doing max strength work, I’m so concerned with the weight I’m going to lift that I barely warm up for fear of inducing fatigue and not hitting or beating my max.
Alright that was kind of long and ranting and not quite on topic, but maybe I said something useful.
[/quote]
Yes you did say something useful, thanks.
I use primarily a Magnificent Mobility circuit for warmups now… plus a PF exercise, like BB walks…
One other thing is, how do people judge what are the lifts to measure strength with? Obviously it’s the compound lower body lifts mentioned earlier, but why is a squat a better measure than, say a deadlift, or vice versa? or a sumo dead over box squat? That kind of thing…
Also concerning “how much is enough”, I don’t know how much GPP is enough, or how what a good speed/strength endurance base is good…
I have to admit that all of the peri-workout stuff is something I need to work on as well, stuff like warmups, and especially stuff that would happen after the actual lifting, like RW’s and such, or cooldowns, whatever you might call it/them…
[quote]squattin600 wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
One thing that’s been bugging me and what I wonder about a lot is, how strong is strong enough? As in, how do I know when I’ve reached the basic level of strength to switch to training focus to absorption?
Also, if one would have his training focus on max strength, how would one make sure not to mess up firing patterns and become too slow in the process, possibly even improving on them. Restorative warmups/Recovery methods? I know doing your sport specific practice is needed, I’m just wondering how much additional stuff one should do.
So if power is not improving then swithc to a strength template until strength plateaus or increases enough of your liking to switch back to a power cycle
Good point about the ISO’s.
I finished re-reading DB’s article.
Here’s what I understood so far.
Example:
Athlete A weighs 100kg and squats 110kg.
Taking his bodyweight into consideration, he’s actually squatting 202kg. 110+(0.92100)=202.
the AW 1RM of that is 2020.51=103.02kg.
Substract his bw*0.92 from that number and you get 11,02kg of weight (103.02-92=11,02).
This is obviously too low to start a power template.
This is where I get confused. When is it ok to start power training?
How big should that number (which is 3.02 now) be before going to a power template?
Let’s assume that he ups his squat, while maintaining his bw, to 150kg, or 1.5bw (not AW 1RM, just straight 1RM).
Doing the same calculations for this new max, his power percentage weight to use would be 31,24kg. High enough or still low?
If he increased his squat to 200kg, or 2bw, he would use 56,92kg for a power template…
Any thoughts?
[quote]squattin600 wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
One thing that’s been bugging me and what I wonder about a lot is, how strong is strong enough? As in, how do I know when I’ve reached the basic level of strength to switch to training focus to absorption?
Also, if one would have his training focus on max strength, how would one make sure not to mess up firing patterns and become too slow in the process, possibly even improving on them. Restorative warmups/Recovery methods? I know doing your sport specific practice is needed, I’m just wondering how much additional stuff one should do.
So if power is not improving then swithc to a strength template until strength plateaus or increases enough of your liking to switch back to a power cycle
THe 2 weeks strength/ 1 week power method be applied when strength is main focus, yes?
Sorry, I’m a little confused…
Well first you’d want to start with an Aw of 31% since speed strength is the 20% window under mag
Otherwise the math looks fine
If you get a positive # with 31% then you are strong enough to commence power training, although you’d mainly be using bodyweight jumps and such (no depth jumps) until you grow stronger.
hope that helps
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
Good point about the ISO’s.
I finished re-reading DB’s article.
Here’s what I understood so far.
Example:
Athlete A weighs 100kg and squats 110kg.
Taking his bodyweight into consideration, he’s actually squatting 202kg. 110+(0.92100)=202.
the AW 1RM of that is 2020.51=103.02kg.
Substract his bw*0.92 from that number and you get 11,02kg of weight (103.02-92=11,02).
This is obviously too low to start a power template.
This is where I get confused. When is it ok to start power training?
How big should that number (which is 3.02 now) be before going to a power template?
Let’s assume that he ups his squat, while maintaining his bw, to 150kg, or 1.5bw (not AW 1RM, just straight 1RM).
Doing the same calculations for this new max, his power percentage weight to use would be 31,24kg. High enough or still low?
If he increased his squat to 200kg, or 2bw, he would use 56,92kg for a power template…
Any thoughts?[/quote]
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
THe 2 weeks strength/ 1 week power method be applied when strength is main focus, yes?
Sorry, I’m a little confused…:)[/quote]
you are correct
2-3 weeks developing target quality,
1 week maintaining the other quality
Squattin,
Thanks, that cleared things up a bit.
Anybody see the RFI front raises in EC’s new “Shoulder Savers” article?
I’m sure that’s not where he got them from, I just thought it was amusing.
I love when that sort of stuff happens though, two coaches (or “schools”) recommending the same exercise or method. Let’s you know that the method probably has validity.
Jtrin,
I noticed that as well but wouldn’t those be considered OIs?
[quote]bigTR wrote:
Jtrin,
I noticed that as well but wouldn’t those be considered OIs?[/quote]
Nah, you can see he’s actually releasing and catching the weight quickly. He’s also going through the full range of motion. OI is just “relax and tense” through a small range of motion (hence, oscillatory isometrics, oscillating around the critical joint angle) while RFI work involves actually releasing and catching the weight.
Typically RFI is much lighter as well, although you can’t really tell the weight he’s using, the DB’s look like 5s or 10s to me.
BigTR, all,
Where do I start on the Charlie Francis forum? There are some my boards on that site, it’s overwhelming.
[quote]L-Dizzle wrote:
BigTR, all,
Where do I start on the Charlie Francis forum? There are some my boards on that site, it’s overwhelming.[/quote]
hmm…
I’d start with purchasing either the forum review 2002 or the CFTS book. Sorry to plug products but it is the easiest way to learn his stuff
Otherwise just start digging in.
Also you can search the hi-lo method at elitefts or james smith;s site (he writes for elitefts). Basically CFTS is the hi-lo method with a short to long approach.
hope that helps
[quote]squattin600 wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
BigTR, all,
Where do I start on the Charlie Francis forum? There are some my boards on that site, it’s overwhelming.
hmm…
I’d start with purchasing either the forum review 2002 or the CFTS book. Sorry to plug products but it is the easiest way to learn his stuff
Otherwise just start digging in.
Also you can search the hi-lo method at elitefts or james smith;s site (he writes for elitefts). Basically CFTS is the hi-lo method with a short to long approach.
hope that helps
[/quote]
I’m kind of reluctant to buy products rught now… I just recently got the magnificent mobility dvd, so that will have to do for a while… don’t really know how much money I can spend right now, future is a little unclear for 2 more weeks…
I started reading the articles on the forum, we’ll see where I go from there.
I haven’t been on elitefts.com in a while, maybe it’s time to visit.
Thanks.
if you go to higher-faster-sports(dot)com Kelly has a mini article about the hi-lo system (basically CFTS)
From there just train short to long