Injury Risk w/ Raw Lifting?

Training Powerlifting
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Hi, New to the forum and new to powerlifting and I had a question for you experts:

My 6’0 180 lb 16 yr old brother is training for football. In the last 3 months he has increased his lifts to 315 back squat, 215 front squat, 335 deadlift, 225 bench.

I’m completely naive to this stuff, so at what point or strength levels would you try to get to (if you were him) before the risk of injury overweighs any athletic gain? (450 squat, 315 bench??)

At what point is it better to slow down or do you recommend keep increasing the weight until you plateau?

Also, at what weight level for squats/deadlift do you guys generally recommend gear (belts, wraps, ect)?

I know its a lot of questions… Like I said, I’m pretty new to this stuff.

Thanks -

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At what point should you back off on poundage increases? For the most part, Never.

I know that might sound like a ridiculous answer, but it’s the truth. As long as you’re performing exercises with good from, there’s no need to back off.

You do need to back off when form is compromised. When you’re hitching your deadlift, doing quarter squats, and half-rep bench presses you’re using too much weight for your body to handle.

Many Novice lifters also need to back off on their single-joint movements and machine work. If you’ve got 135lbs on the Leg Extension but you can’t Front Squat 135lbs, you need to back off from the Leg Extension. If you’re curling more than you can military press, you need to back off on curls. Make sure the weights you’re using for various exercises make sense.

The point in your lifting carrier where you get into belts and wraps is a personal choice. The first item most people get is a pair of lifting straps or a belt. Lifting Straps are nice but they just make pulling stuff easier, not safer. I find that Lifting straps are good for high-rep rows and shrugs but aren’t really necessary for deadlifts or chin-ups.

Leather belts that you find in most high-school gyms are relativly worthless and offer little support. If you’re going to spend money on a belt, buy a power-belt from EliteFTS that’s at least 10mm thick. These untampered, thick belts will provide equal supportive pressure around your entire midsection and will be strong enough to prevent your back from over-arching too much during Overhead Presses, Squats, Deadlifts, Rows, Shrugs, and Heavy Standing Calf Raises.
I would argue that belts are not really necessary until you can Deadlift twice your bodyweight.

Wrist Wraps are like lifting belts for your wrists. If your wrists hurt from Benching, Low Bar Squats, or Overhead Presses and Jerks you might want to invest in a pair. Wrist Wraps and Belts may provide you with more stability and confidence but they won’t make weights lighter.

Knee and Elbow wraps are primarily elastic aids that allow you to lift more weight. They may offer some protection but their purpose is to allow you to lift more weight by storing energy from the eccentric portion of the lift and releasing it when the concentric portion is performed. These aren’t really appropriate to buy until you’re strong.

Squat Suits, Deadlift Suits, and Bench Shirts serve the same purpose as Knee and Elbow Wraps. They help a bit by keeping the joints safe, but they’re primarily worn in order to lift more weight. These aren’t appropriate to buy until you’re competing in power lifting meets.

Powerlifting Wraps and Ace Wraps are entirely different. Ace Wraps are just worn for support. Ace Wraps are appropriate to wear when you’re injured but I’m not sure they’re the best thing to do for your joint problems.

There will obviously be a point where getting too huge will compromise an athletes performance. But once an athlete reaches their ideal bodyweight and body composition, they can still get stronger through training the central nervous system without getting any bigger. How do you train the CNS? Through Sprinting, Jumping, and of course Lifting Heavy Weights.

There is also obviously a point where strength training should not be the top priority of any athlete who isn’t a weightlifter. A Football lineman’s 1st priority should be pushing people. Squatting big #s might be his 3rd priority. A Wide Reciever’s 1st priority is running fast, and his second is catching stuff, and his third is agility. Weight Training is even lower on his list of priorities. A Cross-Country Runner might not even need to spend more than 15 minutes in the gym 3 times a week if at all.

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Great Reply. I appreciate the advice.

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for a football player squating more should be to help them run faster, push people around better etc. Lifting weights is a way to improve football skills, not that important in and of themselves.
Like when a powerlifter is doing good mornings to push their squat/deadlift up. Check out defrancotraining.com and read up on Westside for skinny bastards.

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As rander said, understand that lifting weights is a means to an end. The ultimate goal is not to squat x amount of weight, but to be a better football player.

There is a limited amount of training that your (or your brother’s) body can handle. The question of when to stop focusing on weights then becomes an issue of “is this the best use of my training time in order to improve my football ability” rather than “what point or strength levels would you try to get to (if you were him) before the risk of injury overweighs any athletic gain”.

What position is your brother going to play? I assume its not on the line. Based on that answer, at some point your brother may want to focus on training for speed while cutting down on the amount of lifting (still do enough to maintain though). This might mean instead of doing 5 sets of squats, doing 8x40 yard sprints followed with two or three sets of squats.

Kelley Baggett, Eric Cressey and Joe Defranco all have great material that can very informative. Note especially the differences between the regular West Side for Skinny Bastards (WS4SB) 3 and the WS4SB3 template for speed development. When your brother decides to focus on speed, this will give him a good idea on how to start.

As for the belt/straps etc. I’d avoid a belt for as long as possible… maybe only use it on lifts over 375 or 400 lbs. Basically what you don’t want to happen is to get to the point where you depend on it. If/when you do get it, only use it for your heaviest sets. You want to build the supporting/stabilizer muscles as much as possible rather than rely on the belt for support.

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FightingScott had a good reply, as did rander.

Here’s my take though:

I would avoid a belt for as long as possible–the primary reason for this is that it is easily used as a crutch, almost by accident, and this prevents your low back/abdominals from fulfilling their primary function as stabilizers. It makes your low back weaker and more susceptible to injury. I only use a belt on sets that are 90% or greater of my 1 rep max. Everything else I don’t use anything. Form is paramount, as is building a base for your low back to be strong and have endurance for stabilizing forces from weights or opponents on the gridiron. Low back stability is paramount.

Bottom line, I personally wouldn’t use a belt unless I were maxing, or as is the case currently, I’m in a leg specialization cycle where I squat and pull 5x a week. In this case I go by feel, if I feel strong, no belt. If my back is sore or fatigued, belt.

As long as form is good and you aren’t compromising technique, I wouldn’t back off poundages at all, UNLESS it is a scheduled active rest or backoff/recovery week. These backoff weeks should probably happen every 3-6 weeks (depends on your training history). Elite athletes/powerlifters back off every 3rd/4th week, beginners and intermediates back off every 5-6 weeks or so.

There is never a time or place for knee wraps unless you are a competitive powerlifter. Note these wraps are NOT the same as knee sleeves, which are meant simply to keep the joint warm and allow better nutrient flow.

There is never a time or place for lifting straps IMHO, unless you have a pre-existing imbalance that makes it impossible to get a good hamstring/back workout without them (ie-your grip is so weak that you can’t get good poundages without them). I would work on grip strength and ditch the straps ASAP in this case. The only other thing I can think of is if you ever did grip specialization before your normal workout, then you’d already be fatigued. I just really really, really hate lifting straps.

If you’re lifting w/proper technique, there is no place for anything besides a belt and some chalk for your back/hands. If you’re not, then fix your technique!

EDIT–lifting straps may be ok if you’re dealing with really bad tendonitis and can’t grip anything. In this case though, I’d blitz fish oil and recovery techniques and ditch the straps as soon as I could do so safely.

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Technique is what will protect you, a belt won’t matter much if you are sloppy with form.

That being said, I use the following, wrist wraps at 225 and up in the bench. I use a belt at 315-365 in the deadlift and my max is 570. I use a belt at two plates in the squat and I can handle 500+ with various bars ( safety squat, power bar, cambered bar, and buffalo bar).

I train with a Westside based template and use the belt as they teach.

I’ll also use elbow sleeves on bench like movements to keep the joint warm.

I actually like people to learn to use a belt at a fairly early training age. I don’t think it’s going to really matter much in your overall core strength if you wait until 90% or do it at 50%+.
I’ve heard this over the years, but I haven’t really seen much study on it.

But here’s a different take, if your squat max is 135 or so, you’re weak. 95 lbs will be easy for you, just like 315 would be for me. but the difference is now to then for me is that 315 still feels pretty heavy. Many would say it is heavy. However I’m 200 pounds under a max.

Do you think my core is very weak? I don’t, but I do know that I can hurt myself at 315 if I get nonchalant or sloppy with form.

Now my standards are my standards. I’m not carving these in stone for everyone, I just err on the side of caution.

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i’m of the opinion that wrist wraps should be mandatory. Your wrist is very vulnerable and it’s just insane to try to tough it up. Again, form is most important, but a badly hurt wrist will take you out of the game.

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[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I would avoid a belt for as long as possible–the primary reason for this is that it is easily used as a crutch, almost by accident, and this prevents your low back/abdominals from fulfilling their primary function as stabilizers. It makes your low back weaker and more susceptible to injury. I only use a belt on sets that are 90% or greater of my 1 rep max. Everything else I don’t use anything.[/quote]

I see this thrown around a lot, but I have never seen any evidence of it. I’m not being argumentative, I just don’t see how your belt becomes a crutch. Belted or not, if you are holding 700lbs on your back, your low back/abs are working their ass off.

I’m of a similar mindset to Tom. I put my belt on when the weights feel heavy, or I think it is time. I don’t believe in magical numbers to use before using wraps or belts or anything that is actual support gear and not gear-gear.

My 2cc

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[quote] Matt wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
I would avoid a belt for as long as possible–the primary reason for this is that it is easily used as a crutch, almost by accident, and this prevents your low back/abdominals from fulfilling their primary function as stabilizers. It makes your low back weaker and more susceptible to injury. I only use a belt on sets that are 90% or greater of my 1 rep max. Everything else I don’t use anything.

I see this thrown around a lot, but I have never seen any evidence of it. I’m not being argumentative, I just don’t see how your belt becomes a crutch. Belted or not, if you are holding 700lbs on your back, your low back/abs are working their ass off.

I’m of a similar mindset to Tom. I put my belt on when the weights feel heavy, or I think it is time. I don’t believe in magical numbers to use before using wraps or belts or anything that is actual support gear and not gear-gear.

My 2cc[/quote]

I did do more raw lifting at higher %s in the past, but I was smaller and not as strong. Now at app. 225 I feel the weight. I can do 2.5 times that in a squat, but that’s were I notice there’s weight on my back. I also want to use the belt ala westside, so I practice with it.

For the wrist wraps I do them at 225. form is the key, but you must protect that wrist.

As for elbow sleeves, it’s just to keep an old guys elbows warm.

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Matt–

that’s cool. I can say I’ve noticed it personally in my lifting. Obviously you’re right–700lbs = strong low back belt or no, but that is an elite lifter, stronger than even the top 1% of weightlifting athletes in the US/world. Not a high school/regular joe.

Also, I’m not so strict on 90%+ per se even though that is generally my cut-off. My point is that the low back needs heavy weights to develop it’s ability to stabilize things. While that happens to a 700 lb squatter regardless of his belt, it doesn’t happen to a 200 lb squatter in the same way. There’s just not enough overload IMHO. Also, I’m leaving aside the “technical practice” with the belt as tom63 mentioned he liked that. I’m not really talking about that, though technical practice ala Westside is a viable point.

I would check out the “Back strong and beltless” articles part 1, 2, and possibly 3. I know Paul Chek is a wacko with a lot of his theories, but this one is well referenced, and, I think, well argued. I’m not usually a big fan of his stuff, but this is a good one. There are others, but off the top of my head I can’t think of them.

The one thing I do disagree with is his assertion that you should suck your abs inward when you contract instead of outward. I think Louie Simmons and many others are on the mark when they say you should push out with your abs.

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Also, the belt thing may not be applicable to PL guys, but I think it is very applicable to athletes that need to stabilize against uncooperative opponents (football, most contact sports, etc, etc). On an ever shifting playing field, I think this is necessary.

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Cool, thanks for the followup and elaboration.

:wink:

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So for those other people that may check in and want an elaboration on my position on belt use, I’m going to post this short analysis of Chek’s “Back Strong and Beltless” that I just mentioned above

Ok, after reading through the first 2 parts of “Back Strong and Beltless” it seems to ramble more than I remember it doing. So here’s an uber brief synopsis…

Chek’s basic argument (which I agree with) is that the TVA and internal obliques, diaphragm, et al. stabilize the spinal joints when movement occurs…this happens in healthy individuals (no back pain), and this activation PRECEDES movement by 30-110 milliseconds, depending on what movements were initiated (shoulder movement, leg movement, etc). Research literature validates this. Chek states that weightlifting belts Inhibit the natural activation of the TVA and internal complex, which again the research supports. Inhibition or late activation of the TVA complex is correlated with increased back pain in numerous studies. It should be relatively self-evident why athletes in contact or speed/strength sports such as football, hockey, and rugby should desire proper TVA activation–it leads to a better ability to stabilize against multiple planes of resistance, such as someone trying to break through the line of scrimmage, or checking you into a wall, or tackling a receiver. Taking unexpected shots or tackles without an ability to instantly stabilize the spine is a very bad position to be in.

In other words, Chek states that using a belt regularly changes the natural activation patterns. While the belt gives you increased stability when lifting with it, it inhibits your natural mechanisms for lifting without it–this is one reason you see people very often injure their backs with light warm-up or moderate weights, often even just picking up their gym bag or something. Chek calls this the “Stabilization deficit”–the difference between what you can lift with and without a belt.

What has happened is that their natural protective mechanisms are so inhibited by chronic belt use or bad posture/technique (also culprits of back pain) that the TVA doesn’t fire and lets the spine shear, bend, or deform. Belt use generally increases activation of the rectus abdominus and the spinal erectors. This is notably different from your “built in” spinal protection system of the TVA. If the RA and the spinal erectors are made into the dominant stabilizers and then are overpowered by a heavy weight or compromised from fatigue, the injury potential increases a lot because the “back-up system” is offline.

So, while Chek doesn’t like belts for anything (I disagree with this), he’s right for the majority use of the belts. He disagrees completely with the 4 main benefits stated for wearing a belt from “The Weightlifting Encyclopedia”.

--------This book btw, has been and should be considered a standard reference for people interested in Oly lifting or general periodization. Great book----------

So Chek disagrees completely with these 4 benefits. This is one area I disagree with him–while it is very probable that he is correct when talking about long-term effects of regular belt use, I am pretty sure “The Weightlifting Encyclopedia” was talking about short-term or acute benefits of belt use (say for one lift, or a single set). And I totally agree with these benefits from personal experience, as well as the experience of elite lifters and coaches around the world. This is also one reason Louie Simmons advocates setting the belt a notch loose when trying to learn to activate your abs and generate intra-abdominal pressure.

So here’s how I arrived at my use of the belt–using it very sparingly on only very heavy lifts (90%+ of max) allows for the acute short-term benefits of belt use while still allowing my TVA and internal abdominal muscles to learn the proper activation patterns from the majority of my training volume and stop being inhibited. This kind of limited use also minimizes the “stabilization deficit”, allowing me to feel relatively comfortable and confident in pulling heavy weights without a belt. So I get all the benefits of TVA recruitment, and the added benefit of the weight belt when I really really need it.

Whew, ok that was long. I apologize for writing a novel. There are a lot of other researchers that say similar things…but their names escape me at the moment. I believe Stuart McGill was one. Anyway, Part 3 of the series covers Chek’s idea of how to wean someone off of belt dependence.

EDIT—I should add that a belt is very handy when undergoing shock cycles or dealing with fatigue, as this is (or should be) a short-term problem brought about by intense training. When this training needs to continue and you’re fatigued, a belt can help. I’m pretty sure I’m preaching to the choir–you all know this already. The point here is you got your body to do a lot of work without it and now it’s tired–so now a belt serves a purpose to keep you safe when you have to complete your microcycle.

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[quote] Matt wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
I would avoid a belt for as long as possible–the primary reason for this is that it is easily used as a crutch, almost by accident, and this prevents your low back/abdominals from fulfilling their primary function as stabilizers. It makes your low back weaker and more susceptible to injury. I only use a belt on sets that are 90% or greater of my 1 rep max. Everything else I don’t use anything.

I see this thrown around a lot, but I have never seen any evidence of it. I’m not being argumentative, I just don’t see how your belt becomes a crutch. Belted or not, if you are holding 700lbs on your back, your low back/abs are working their ass off.

I’m of a similar mindset to Tom. I put my belt on when the weights feel heavy, or I think it is time. I don’t believe in magical numbers to use before using wraps or belts or anything that is actual support gear and not gear-gear.

My 2cc[/quote]

I agree, I always found adding the belt altered my form slightly and would put it on sooner rather than later. Then maybe tighten up for the following sets.

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[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Matt–

that’s cool. I can say I’ve noticed it personally in my lifting. Obviously you’re right–700lbs = strong low back belt or no, but that is an elite lifter, stronger than even the top 1% of weightlifting athletes in the US/world. Not a high school/regular joe.

Also, I’m not so strict on 90%+ per se even though that is generally my cut-off. My point is that the low back needs heavy weights to develop it’s ability to stabilize things. While that happens to a 700 lb squatter regardless of his belt, it doesn’t happen to a 200 lb squatter in the same way. There’s just not enough overload IMHO. Also, I’m leaving aside the “technical practice” with the belt as tom63 mentioned he liked that. I’m not really talking about that, though technical practice ala Westside is a viable point.

I would check out the “Back strong and beltless” articles part 1, 2, and possibly 3. I know Paul Chek is a wacko with a lot of his theories, but this one is well referenced, and, I think, well argued. I’m not usually a big fan of his stuff, but this is a good one. There are others, but off the top of my head I can’t think of them.

The one thing I do disagree with is his assertion that you should suck your abs inward when you contract instead of outward. I think Louie Simmons and many others are on the mark when they say you should push out with your abs.[/quote]

I close to and probably agree with you 100% sort of. I did use the belt less at 200 pounds than my current strength levels. However, I think it’s important for a newbie to also learn to use the belt as Louie and the others states.

Here’s a good example, yesterday I hit a 475 ssb squat with loose briefs off a 13 3/4 " box, about parallel or just lower. It went ok, but I did feel as tight as I should. On my PR attempt of 515 I pushed out hard against the belt and did it with more speed than 475. It was still heavy, and maybe i didn’t have a lot more in me, but I handled it better in my training partners opinion.

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I don’t really buy a lot of Chek’s you inhibit stuff with the belt. I forget the guys name, but the one who did research about the TA didn’t agree with his assertions.

By lower back and abs are as strong as they ever were or more and I use my belt regularly. But when I was younger and lighter I didn’t as much. I probably followed the 90% or so rule. But to me, It’s seems I’ve gotten a lot stronger since I’m using it more, but that could be because I’ve been training Westside style. Of course, I also powerlfited back then, but whatever.

I would suggest not using the belt until you hit 225-315 in the squat and 225-315 in the deadlift, depending on your strength levels. If you squatting 250, that’s 90 % if you’re squatting 500, 225-315 is still heavy and you should learn to use that belt properly. Same as the deadlfit.

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Beltless I can see for athletes and n00bs, but not so much for lifters. I prefer training the core muscles with other movements, like reverse hypers, 45 back raises, ab wheel etc. When I’m squatting or deadlifting, I only want to worry about that lift.

While Chek makes sense on paper, I don’t believe it in the real world. I typically put my belt on at 225. My best gym squat in gear right now is 635 and I hope to get close to 700 at my meet in a few weeks.

My core strength has improved in taking my squat from high 3’s to mid 6’s irregardless of belt use. I think keeping the lifter safe, by keeping his core tight against the belt, outweighs the benefits of not wearing one. Those core strengths can be trained using special exercises that are far less likely to cause injury if there is a lapse in form.

I think what I’m trying to say is that I believe there is a benefit of beltless lifting, but I also believe that the risk outweighs the benefit and that there are safer alternatives to gain that same benefit.

I’m not real good with words, so I hope that made at least a little sense.

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[quote] Matt wrote:
Beltless I can see for athletes and n00bs, but not so much for lifters. I prefer training the core muscles with other movements, like reverse hypers, 45 back raises, ab wheel etc. When I’m squatting or deadlifting, I only want to worry about that lift.

While Chek makes sense on paper, I don’t believe it in the real world. I typically put my belt on at 225. My best gym squat in gear right now is 635 and I hope to get close to 700 at my meet in a few weeks.

My core strength has improved in taking my squat from high 3’s to mid 6’s irregardless of belt use. I think keeping the lifter safe, by keeping his core tight against the belt, outweighs the benefits of not wearing one. Those core strengths can be trained using special exercises that are far less likely to cause injury if there is a lapse in form.

I think what I’m trying to say is that I believe there is a benefit of beltless lifting, but I also believe that the risk outweighs the benefit and that there are safer alternatives to gain that same benefit.

I’m not real good with words, so I hope that made at least a little sense. [/quote]

I’m maybe stronger, maybe weaker than you, but pretty damn close and I think the same. I’m very lazy with my core work now, but the decreased volume at my age of 44 seems to helps me mroe than the extra work does. No aches and pains, and rising strength levels. Last night as I said I did a 515 ssb squat off a low, 13 3/4 " box and a 365 deadlift against doubled ( 4 pieces of mini over the bar on each side) minis.

My strength has gone up a lot over ten years and I doubt my core is weaker. I have been injured, but that was more to beating the hell out of myself as opposed to weak core.

But sometimes I think strength training is overrated for athletes. I’m stronger than most guys on the PSU football team, but they’re called great athletes. After some period of time, increased strength doesn’t translate to increased athletic performance because you need to play the game.

Inpowerlifting, lifting is the game.

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Interesting points guys. I agree with a lot of what you guys say. I would be very interested in seeing this other guys research if you could dig it up tom63. Seems interesting, and as a scientist I’ve always felt a need to challenge my assumptions. I can say, though, that Chek’s position seems to check out in my own life.

But I’m more concerned about the OP’s post–he was talking about HS athletes, who I think need to avoid belts (most of the time). In general anytime you take somebody and make them stronger, their core strength increases, I agree. I’m not really talking about powerlifting or lifters in general, where I think you guys have very valid points.