Injection Frequency vs Muscle Mass

You guessed right, I didn’t. Didn’t need to with a full round of symptoms such as creaking joints (im 30!), zero libido, urinating very very often, zero pumps in gym, no energy, no emotion, no sympathy, no feeling, weight loss (im already very lean and thin and very low BF), among lots of others… Everything was worse than pre TRT. Yet I used to sweat like crazy so I knew the T was active. I gave it about 9 weeks. E3D subq vs daily IM is a million % different for me! Im putting it down to E2 based on each and every E2 symptom in the book. Its indisputable, but may be hard to swallow for those who are battling at the other end of the E2 spectrum like you.

Im not proposing everyone switch to E3D. Im presenting the idea that there exists a category of potentially low aromatisers, who may crash with frequent protocols and would benefit from higher E2 from less frequent injections.

The problem is you don’t know if you crashed your estrogen. Most of the guys I’ve seen on daily injection protocols that get labs done have higher estrogen levels than they do on trough from less frequent injections. Say you switched to once a week injections. Is your E2 crashed at the end of every week? Crashing estrogen from an injection frequency that keeps your T levels higher than they would be at trough on a less frequent injection protocol doesn’t really make sense to me.

I really really respect your views on this forum, but now you have flown in the face of the MAIN reason for dailies…E2 management! For 99% of the proponents out there for dailies, it is and always has been lower E2 and management of E2 symptoms.

Well I hate to be the one to break it those guys but it doesn’t lower estrogen. I’ve posted my labs here 8,000 times (literally) and I’ve posted my E2 level double that. The reason I (and most everyone I’ve seen that has gone to daily shots) is to lessen hormonal fluctuations. We are basically taking a time release drug and making it more “time-released” so that levels don’t fluctuate as much. Your levels will be lower than peak but higher than trough compared to someone on a less frequent protocol (which is the point of daily shots).

Most of the guys whining about estrogen don’t really know what they are talking about.

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It controle E2 by limiting the range. Your high is lower (For most), but your low is higher. The median should be the same, just no spikes.

If this was true, then there would be a lot of really jacked women walked around, but that is not the case.

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Actually it is. Assuming your test levels are high enough. Hence women aren’t jacked.

You are oversimplifying. Everything has an effect - to an extent. SOME estrogen improves things, more is not better after a certain point. Same as anything else. You linked an interesting study, but it doesn’t actually support your hypothesis. The effects of estrogen in women comparing post menopausal levels with normal ranges does not support the theory that estrogen at other levels - or in men even - will result in greater hypertrophy than normal range E2.
The biggest female lifters running serious cycles are still smaller than me at normal range levels. You need ENOUGH E2 to function well, but having more isn’t going to result in huge hypertrophic increases in size.

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Then why are bodybuilders popping birth control (estrogen) pills?

Estrogen promotes hypertrophy via water retention. That’s why bodybuilders only take AIs right before contest to kill estrogen and dry up. While prepping they’re all bloated and string as fuk.

From excelmale: “A lot of bodybuilders also take birth controls pills when bulking. Estrogen helps pump glycogen into muscles. Estrogen is anabolic. You can’t gain muscle with low estrogen”.

This comment was liked by Nelson Velgel. He himself states in another post he takes these pills to increase E.

So, somebody’s opinion. I actually have a background in competitive strength sports, and know plenty of bodybuilders as well. BBing is not a strength sport, and most of them are in fact not very strong - not a slight, as it’s not really the goal of BBing. (That’s in response to the "string as fuk "(sic) comment from @sublimeprince32)
The popularity of something amongst some in a given community of people is evidence only of commonality of belief. It is commonly held in Latin American countries that washing your hands after ironing causes arthritis. That doesn’t make it a reality. Estrogen is absolutely necessary for health as well as building muscle. BBers will also commonly be taking a less than intelligent dose of AI, so they are in fact simply adding back pharmaceautically what they take away pharmaceutically. Stupid? Yes. Evidence of anything else? Nope. Is the estrogen itself causing hypertrophy? Maybe up to a certain level, but that is actally doubtful. Is increased body mass and greater water and ATP resources contributing anything? Uh, absolutely. That’s how creatine works. If you weight more, you lift more. Greater stores of glycogen and other necessities permit greater volume of training and recovery. Is it the estrogen? Not really, at least not directly. 20 years ago it was “Stomp that E2 into the ground, as close to zero as possible”, now we know better than that. Some have now swung the other way, in time the evidence will be there that that isn’t any better or brighter.
I have never advocated low E2. My former training partner got a pacemaker at 27, we were pretty sure then that it was the AI overuse that caused that, and I’m even more sure of it now. However, that doesn’t mean more is always better and there is an upper limit. Risk versus reward. If you want to tell yourself that no amount is counterproductive and more is better, I feel for the pain that you are going to cause yourself. E2 is an androgen, so by definition it is androgenic. It is not MORE androgenic than other things, especially not test, especially not in men.

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You just said “Bloat equals hypertrophy”. It does not. Extra work capacity can aid in the pursuit of hypertrophy, but mor water is not more lean mass.

He knows. I had the exact experience he describes on dailies. And he explains the symptons perfectly. Low e2:androgen ratio is easy to distinguish if you know your body.

High e2 automatically gets the blame for everything. I crashed e2 on dailies. No ai. Low e2:androgen ratio is just as likely the cause of problems as high e2. And low e2 symptons are a lot worse and harder to correct.

This has to be the dumbest statement I’ve read all week. One cannot get body builder sized muscles without being strong.

That doesn’t make sense (like just about everything you post). Whoever started calling daily injection “dailies” needs to up their dose and bring their testosterone levels to that of a man.

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You are blissfully unaware of how things work if you think that.

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Bodybuilders are not very strong. Got it.

And don’t forget, marathon runners have no long distance endurance.

Relatively speaking, they are not. Compared to the average guy who has never lifted anything sure. Not relative to other lifters. It would be the wrong training. The exception is Coleman, who was a Powerlifter before BBing. We would all train the same way if all roads led to Rome. There is quite a bit of actual science behind muscle typing and tailoring programs to goals. Halfthor Bjornson would be in the running for the Olympia if it was all the same thing. You clearly haven’t been around higher level guys from the different sports or you would have a different opinion.

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