Read some research, there is more activation in most all muscles involved in the trunk/midsection during squats and deads and variations.
In comparison there is relatively little activation during any plank or core hold.
[/quote]
Lol… nice. You’ve “won” by completely missing the point.
No one said squats and deads weren’t great for the core, they are. But if you can get ADDITIONAL work in then there should be a positive carryover, since they hit the core so hard.
Why are you talking exclusively about planks and core holds as the method of choice for ab training? When it comes to increasing your squat pulldown abs, hanging leg raises and weighted decline sit ups are far better.
OK…core holds or planks are just examples, I would be willing to bet that most of these ‘direct’ exercises are similar.
But your responses are in my favor, the squat and deads have high activations of trunk muscles, however, relatively low activation of the abdominals. What does that tell us? Direct AB work probably isn’t that important or useful to increase squat or dead weights.
Want to know if your trunk or “core” is strong enough? Try front squats with 90%, sit in the hole and breathe all your air out…if you can stay upright then your prolly strong enough through the midsection
STRONGHOLD: does activation mean that a muscle is stimulated? Yes. Does it mean its fatigued? No. Why are you trying to fatigue everything? Your not going to get maximal strength if you are always fatigued, ever seen a fit-fat graph?? Ha.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
DeLong wrote:
This thread is crazy…
Read some research, there is more activation in most all muscles involved in the trunk/midsection during squats and deads and variations.
In comparison there is relatively little activation during any plank or core hold.
Lol… nice. You’ve “won” by completely missing the point.
No one said squats and deads weren’t great for the core, they are. But if you can get ADDITIONAL work in then there should be a positive carryover, since they hit the core so hard.
Why are you talking exclusively about planks and core holds as the method of choice for ab training? When it comes to increasing your squat pulldown abs, hanging leg raises and weighted decline sit ups are far better.[/quote]
Its like saying can I get stronger at benching by only benching and not doing any assistance work. Sure you can, but why would you not want to do additional work that would very likely help you get stronger faster.
I think we all agree that you can get stronger on squats and have decent core strength by just squatting. But why wouldn’t someone take the 5-10 minutes to strenghen their abs and greatly improve their gains, and likely make training safer.
The OP already said the main reason is he’s just lazy, so that kinda shows how much he wants to be able to squat more.
[quote]DeLong wrote:
STRONGHOLD: does activation mean that a muscle is stimulated? Yes. Does it mean its fatigued? No. Why are you trying to fatigue everything? Your not going to get maximal strength if you are always fatigued, ever seen a fit-fat graph?? Ha.[/quote]
Where did I say anything about doing ab work before your main lifts?
Riddle me this. My glutes, hams, quads, and hip flexors are all activated when I walk up my stairs.
Where did I say anything about doing ab work before your main lifts?
[/quote]
You didn’t, and neither did I…
Either way, you make my point clear. If walking up stairs was the best way to train those muscle groups would you take time to use less stressful and less efficient exercises? Or just walk up more stairs?
Where did I say anything about doing ab work before your main lifts?
You didn’t, and neither did I…
Either way, you make my point clear. If walking up stairs was the best way to train those muscle groups would you take time to use less stressful and less efficient exercises? Or just walk up more stairs?
[/quote]
Since when are sit ups with a 45 lb plate behind your head less stressful?
Sorry, your line of reasoning is flawed and has been exposed and refuted ad nauseum in the bodybuilding forum.
Ok, so we all know that if you want to be stronger and progress you should train your abs directly. But what do you guys think are the best exercises for carryover to squats and deadlifts?
I know a lot of pl’ers are big on standing ab exercises like pulldown abs, but I just cant figure these out. I tried them today, progressively going heavier. Then it got too heavy for me to do them without falling back, so I put some dbs over my feet. I was able to go a bit heavier, but still didn’t feel anythin whatsoever in my abs. Im gonna try them with a band to see if that works better, but what have you guys had the most success with?
I think it’s important to think about the role of the trunk during squating and deadlifting. Through both movements a neutral spine position should be maintained, which means that any direct trunk work should focus on the maintainance of that position. Training the abdominals often comprises of spinal flexion movements (think sit ups, pull down abs, hanging leg raises) so by doing more and more of these you are making the trunk flexion movement pattern stronger.
As has been mentioned, rollouts could be found to be beneficial because they require the athlete to lock out their trunk to prevent hyper extention of lumbar spine at the end point of the movement, and on the return to the start, natural lumbar lordosis should be maintained. An equally effective movement would be the candlestick; simply laying on a flat bench, holding tight to the head rest, perform a shoulder stand movement then slowly lower to the bench whilst keeping the trunk locked. Before the hips touch the bench reverse the direction without piking at the hips to return to the start position.
I’m sure many would argue that plenty of elite powerlifters and weightlifters made it to the top of their game by doing exercises such as weighted crunches etc, although an athelte with the natural gifts required to reach that point will often acheive greatness regardless of the assistance exercises they do.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
My single ply comp squat went from 245kg to 305+kg in less than 12 months last year. My raw squat went up about 20kg…
The difference?? Pulldown Abs. I trained the absolute shit outta them and my squat just took off. DL went nowhere tho![/quote]
Very impressive.
Here’s the better question…
Did your increase your squat due to some improvement in the execution of the lift, or did you actually get STRONGER? I’ve been hearing alot of guys who dramatically increase their lifts by shifting technique (learning leg drive when bench pressing, learning the “scoop” when doing a clean, etc.).
Who knows? Maybe you simply learned how to flex your abs or something…
Now, tell me this smart guy…does activation = stimulation = fatigue?
[/quote]
They’re linked. It’s IMPOSSIBLE to fatigue anything without stimulating it, nor is it possible to stimulate any muscle without activating it first. The answer to that is…
Muscle gets activated… and then it MAY get stimulated… which WILL then cause (if it did get stimulated) a fatigue of some degree (REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU DO, THERE IS ALWAYS ATLEAST SOME TYPE OF FATIGUE INVOLVED)
[quote]Hanley wrote:
DeLong wrote:
This thread is crazy…
Read some research, there is more activation in most all muscles involved in the trunk/midsection during squats and deads and variations.
In comparison there is relatively little activation during any plank or core hold.
Lol… nice. You’ve “won” by completely missing the point.
No one said squats and deads weren’t great for the core, they are. But if you can get ADDITIONAL work in then there should be a positive carryover, since they hit the core so hard.
Why are you talking exclusively about planks and core holds as the method of choice for ab training? When it comes to increasing your squat pulldown abs, hanging leg raises and weighted decline sit ups are far better.[/quote]
How much additional work is too much?
And what’s the deal with people doing 10% max effort work and 90% “rep work”? It’s like half assing your powerlifting career…
[quote]DeLong wrote:
OK…core holds or planks are just examples, I would be willing to bet that most of these ‘direct’ exercises are similar.
But your responses are in my favor, the squat and deads have high activations of trunk muscles, however, relatively low activation of the abdominals. What does that tell us? Direct AB work probably isn’t that important or useful to increase squat or dead weights.
Want to know if your trunk or “core” is strong enough? Try front squats with 90%, sit in the hole and breathe all your air out…if you can stay upright then your prolly strong enough through the midsection
STRONGHOLD: does activation mean that a muscle is stimulated? Yes. Does it mean its fatigued? No. Why are you trying to fatigue everything? Your not going to get maximal strength if you are always fatigued, ever seen a fit-fat graph?? Ha.[/quote]
Just a hint, try not to be condescending. (it didn’t work well for me dude.)
Either way I’m gonna have to agree with you with this one:
“Your not going to get maximal strength if you are always fatigued”
THIS IS ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS THAT DROVE ME INTO QUESTIONING THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ADDITONAL “CORE WORK”.
[quote]dankid wrote:
Hanley wrote:
DeLong wrote:
This thread is crazy…
Read some research, there is more activation in most all muscles involved in the trunk/midsection during squats and deads and variations.
In comparison there is relatively little activation during any plank or core hold.
Lol… nice. You’ve “won” by completely missing the point.
No one said squats and deads weren’t great for the core, they are. But if you can get ADDITIONAL work in then there should be a positive carryover, since they hit the core so hard.
Why are you talking exclusively about planks and core holds as the method of choice for ab training? When it comes to increasing your squat pulldown abs, hanging leg raises and weighted decline sit ups are far better.
Its like saying can I get stronger at benching by only benching and not doing any assistance work. Sure you can, but why would you not want to do additional work that would very likely help you get stronger faster.
I think we all agree that you can get stronger on squats and have decent core strength by just squatting. But why wouldn’t someone take the 5-10 minutes to strenghen their abs and greatly improve their gains, and likely make training safer.
The OP already said the main reason is he’s just lazy, so that kinda shows how much he wants to be able to squat more.[/quote]
Yes, I am lazy. It’s mainly because of this strong intuition that I have that whatever “additional core work” I may be doing is somewhat useless.
Nearly every man who is educated in the field of REAL strength training WILL and SHOULD KNOW how fatigue can wreak havoc to their CNS. If you can manage to provide stimulus to your body (that can result in strength gains) all while minimizing fatigue, then for God’s sakes DO IT!
You aren’t at a high enough level to worry about CNS fatigue AND direct ab work is not CNS intensive. And if you know anything about what you are suggesting, then you’d know you are basically disproving yourself.
If you had two options of training.
A)5 sets of squats, followed by 5 sets of abs
B)7 sets of squats, followed by 0 sets of abs
Surely you can see that in order to make up for the lack of direct ab exercises, you’d have to do more heavy squatting/deadlifting. This is the true CNS intensive exercise, and thus you’d be more likely to overdo it by NOT training abs than if you did em. You basically have two choices. Stop being lazy, and do what is needed. Or continue being lazy and accept that you aren’t going to get very strong, but at least you’ll know why.