Check out the new article on elitefts.com it talks about this very issue.
Simply stated, a lifter who does a high volume of unbelted squatting and deadlifting is going to need significantly less direct ab work than someone who utilizes a belt more frequently.
It doesn’t make one style of training superior to another, it just is what it is.
I know plenty of ridiculously strong PL’s who base a large portion of their training on beltless squatting and pulling.
You would be suprised at how little direct ab work they perform at specific times during their training cycles and they are doing just fine.
[quote]apwsearch wrote:
elih8er wrote:
They train abs all the time.
Top level lifters are doing direct ab work. My former coach told everyone to do it as well–hanging leg raises, hypers, roman chair situps, etc. It will benefit your lifting and prevents injury. If you want to be good you do it.
Thanks for your input on what “top level lifters do.”
A topic I am certain you have vast experience with.
I will make a note of it.
[/quote]
I wont claim to be an expert on “top level lifters” but all of the top level lifters I have seen stress the importance of strong abs. And all of the ones I have seen accomplish this with direct ab work.
[quote]dankid wrote:
I wont claim to be an expert on “top level lifters” but all of the top level lifters I have seen stress the importance of strong abs. And all of the ones I have seen accomplish this with direct ab work.
[/quote]
Post wasn’t directed at you but since you chose to respond, read my post above explaining what I am telling you.
Good article on that from our friend Dave Tate http://www.elitefts.com/documents/tighten_that_belt.htm
[quote]dankid wrote:
Invictica wrote:
dankid wrote:
If you are content with being pretty weak, then ya, you dont need direct ab work. Basically if you dont have any expectations of deadlifting more than 300-400 or front squatting more than 200-300 than you probably can get by without ab work.
Not to shit on your parade. But nobody on my Olympic Weightlifting team trains abs. We all pull well over 400, we all front squat well over 300. We lift in 77kg - 94kg. I don’t think it’s right to set up such rigid limitations based on the absence of core work.
just imagine how much you would do if you DID train abs.[/quote]
Rofl. You’re funny.
Just my experience: I gained about 10 kg to my front squat almost instantly after platue when I started doing some weighted planks. I guess planks worked in some way that front squat didn’t, I don’t know…I didn’t even do planks heavy or anything, it was just 3 sets a week basically, trying to get used to the movement, but it worked.
Dan John on Abdominal Training from: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION
Someday, each of you is going to pay for the 10,000 crunches that you were sure would build a six-pack. Instead, it built a bad lower back. Ab work does absolutely “nothing” for you. Just ask any long-time strength trainer.
And now, the rest of the story. I’ve been in touch with Dane Miller, who has been training with Dr. Anatoli Bondarchuk. “Bondy” is a legend in strength training, and Miller changed the way I’ll look at abs forever. Imagine a mathematical formula as a template for your training program.
A+B+C=D
D is your goal. It could be an athletic performance or a certain amount of lean body mass.
A is an upper body movement, let’s say the bench press.
B is a full body movement, like the deadlift.
C is abdominal work.
When I increase B, either by max lift or increased volume, I’ve noticed that D improves. Therefore, dropping B is universally bad. No matter what your goals are, you should keep deadlifting, or squatting, or whatever. Generally, increases in A have some effect on D, but it’s more difficult to see the value.
Which leads us to C. Increasing ab work doesn’t seem to help us with the goal. I’ve seen guys using ridiculous weight on 45-degree abdominal boards. What’s the point, besides back surgery before you’re middle-aged?
So, why do abs? Well, according to Miller, when you drop C, A and B go straight to hell, which we already know is going to impact D so fast it’ll make your head swim. In other words, abs support your training goals as much as they support your internal organs! You have to do abs, simply to support the whole training system.
That’s the rest of the story with abs. No, working your abs won’t help your six-pack, but it will support all your efforts to be able to show off your six-pack.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
Can I build my abs with front squats and deadlifts only? Or do I REALLY have to do some weighted abs to make them stronger? I’m not looking to “bring them up with the rest of my body”. I’m just curious if they would get waaay too understimulated if I train without direct ab work. I just don’t want them to be too weak where they actually affect my squatting strength.
Thank you! :)[/quote]
Lift heavy weights above your head, that will work your core.
[quote]theuofh wrote:
I think you may be missing the point. Not doing them and hoping that your squat strength is not affected, is not the same as doing them in hopes of getting a stronger squat.
Are you afraid of getting a ‘blocky’ midsection?
There was an article in this month’s performance menu about core training for weightlifters that may be of some interest to you. [/quote]
Thank you sir. Please post the link. I NEED IT!!
I’ve heard from a Smolov practitioner that it is IDEAL to avoid ANY other exercises (while in the smolov cycle) that somewhat involves your core… I am a firm believer of this concept mainly because there have been ALOT of reliable sources that have stated that “less is more”. I think some of you have probably heard of olympic weightlifters only doing 3 exercises. (Snatch, Clean and Jerk, Front squat in that order.)
I think the better question is…
Which is more optimal?
Both ways could work but who knows? Maybe one of them is better.
[quote]Invictica wrote:
dankid wrote:
If you are content with being pretty weak, then ya, you dont need direct ab work. Basically if you dont have any expectations of deadlifting more than 300-400 or front squatting more than 200-300 than you probably can get by without ab work.
Not to shit on your parade. But nobody on my Olympic Weightlifting team trains abs. We all pull well over 400, we all front squat well over 300. We lift in 77kg - 94kg. I don’t think it’s right to set up such rigid limitations based on the absence of core work.[/quote]
This confirms what I said about olympic weightlifters doing very few exercises…
Plus, check out this interview with Taranenko.
Bud Charniga: Do you do any abdominal exercises?
Taranenko: No. I’m too lazy.
Spoken like a true lifter. lol.
[quote]aaron_lohan wrote:
TYPE2B wrote:
Can I build my abs with front squats and deadlifts only? Or do I REALLY have to do some weighted abs to make them stronger? I’m not looking to “bring them up with the rest of my body”. I’m just curious if they would get waaay too understimulated if I train without direct ab work. I just don’t want them to be too weak where they actually affect my squatting strength.
Thank you! 
Lift heavy weights above your head, that will work your core.[/quote]
I know. I used to do power jerks a few days back. Something in the air made me stop doing them. (sigh)
[quote]dankid wrote:
Why would you not want to train them directly? Are you lazy, or strapped for time, to where you cant throw in a couple sets of abs here and there?[/quote]
Yes. All of the above. Honestly, one of the reasons why I made this thread is because I’m trying to find a justifiable reason for me to not do ab stuff… So far, the articles that I have read have been giving me hints that It could work, that it may actually be better. WHat better place to find assurance that T-Nation.com?
If I stop doing ab work my standing overhead presses will stall out about two weeks later. It also makes my squatting more solid, but I can get by without doing it.
My single ply comp squat went from 245kg to 305+kg in less than 12 months last year. My raw squat went up about 20kg…
The difference?? Pulldown Abs. I trained the absolute shit outta them and my squat just took off. DL went nowhere tho!
[quote]Hanley wrote:
My single ply comp squat went from 245kg to 305+kg in less than 12 months last year. My raw squat went up about 20kg…
The difference?? Pulldown Abs. I trained the absolute shit outta them and my squat just took off. DL went nowhere tho![/quote]
Now just imagine how much your squat would have gone up if you lifted in pounds!
[quote]DaCharmingAlbino wrote:
If I stop doing ab work my standing overhead presses will stall out about two weeks later. It also makes my squatting more solid, but I can get by without doing it.[/quote]
I cannot stress enough how much doing ab rollouts a few times a week has increased my overhead press. The stability I have now compared to before is much much better.
This thread is crazy…
Read some research, there is more activation in most all muscles involved in the trunk/midsection during squats and deads and variations.
In comparison there is relatively little activation during any plank or core hold.
Also, the term “core” is awful. A socially created word to sell exercise to women and the stupid.
If you think that direct work will help a lift such as a squat, you are mistaken. Maybe you should spend more time actually squatting heavy weight.
And yes, there is always an outlier to the rule, someone may have had success doing it, but that doesn’t make it the rule.
[quote]DeLong wrote:
This thread is crazy…
Read some research, there is more activation in most all muscles involved in the trunk/midsection during squats and deads and variations.
In comparison there is relatively little activation during any plank or core hold.
Also, the term “core” is awful. A socially created word to sell exercise to women and the stupid.
If you think that direct work will help a lift such as a squat, you are mistaken. Maybe you should spend more time actually squatting heavy weight.
And yes, there is always an outlier to the rule, someone may have had success doing it, but that doesn’t make it the rule.[/quote]
Who here is recommending only planks? Most of us here who do extra core work do heavy trunk flexion and extension exercises (pulldown abs, back raises, etc).
Now, tell me this smart guy…does activation = stimulation = fatigue?