I’ve completed 6 cycles of Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 and have made the following gains:
MP: 50 lbs
DL: 100 lbs
BP: 50 lbs
SQ: 50 lbs
For Cycle 7:
Would replacing the Squat 5/3/1 day with Super Squats be a good idea?
I’ve been considering doing the 20 rep squat program, but I don’t want to lose my strength gains (in DL, MP and BP) from 5/3/1.
Or maybe replace the Squat assistance work with 1x20?
I think 20 rep squats are more about building toughness and attitude than anything else. Mixing and matching programs usually isn’t a good idea. Programs are designed to work as a whole. Once you start changing parts you mess with that.
what do you think about replacing wendler’s 5/3/1 squat day with the Super Squats (just as an experiment)?
Super Squats calls for 2-3 times a week, but I’ve heard of sucess from doing it only once a week. I have poor recovery abilities, so Super Squatting 1x a week would be suitable for me (to start off, anyway).
A 5/3/1 cycle lasts about the same length as the super squats routine (6 weeks)–depending on how you structure the 5/3/1 cycle. The 5/3/1’s flexibility is awesome like that, and I’m thinking that incorporating Super Squats into the cycle in place of 5/3/1 squats would make an interesting experiment. My Squat gains in 5/3/1 weren’t as great as I expected (compared to my 100lbs gain in my deadlift), so the super squats could be a great change, and hopefully help make a new PR. Plus, the mental toughness I gain from this will carry over to 5/3/1 squats.
Or… i was thinking of doing the super squats (20 rep squats @ 10RM) as assistance work after the 5/3/1 squats (instead of doing 5x10 squats).
The problem with this approach, is that the 5/3/1 squats may affect my performance on the 20 rep squats (assistance), so I may end up having to do 20 reps @ 15RM instead…?
Or should I stick to the actual super squat routine instead of mixing routines?
I ordered the Super Squats book and should be receiving it next week.
Remember the purpose of the assistance lifts in the 5/3/1 program- to make your main lifts go up. Try the 20 rep squats as assistance and see what happens to your lifting numbers. If your main lifts keep going up, great. If the main lift numbers stay the same or go down, find something else to do for assistance.
This sounds like a horrible idea if you are anything other than a beginner.
You’ve added 50 pounds onto your squat in 6 months and you aren’t happy with those results?
Wendler says you can’t be a slave to 2 different masters; he was talking about cardio and strength, but I think it can be applied here as well. 5/3/1 will screw up your 20-rep squats and vice versa. If you’re still making those great gains on 5/3/1, stay with that, seriously. If you’re not making gains and your squat is more important than the other 3 lifts, try another program like 20-rep squats. I personally would stay with 5/3/1 as written.
[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
Remember the purpose of the assistance lifts in the 5/3/1 program- to make your main lifts go up. Try the 20 rep squats as assistance and see what happens to your lifting numbers. If your main lifts keep going up, great. If the main lift numbers stay the same or go down, find something else to do for assistance. [/quote]
Yup, this
[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
Mixing and matching programs usually isn’t a good idea. Programs are designed to work as a whole. Once you start changing parts you mess with that.[/quote]
This!
Thanks for the advice everyone!
[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
Remember the purpose of the assistance lifts in the 5/3/1 program- to make your main lifts go up. Try the 20 rep squats as assistance and see what happens to your lifting numbers. If your main lifts keep going up, great. If the main lift numbers stay the same or go down, find something else to do for assistance. [/quote]
I’ll try the 20 rep squats as my squat assistance. I’ll start off with 15RM instead of 10RM, and go from there.
My next cycle starts next week. I’ll post the results by the end of the cycle. This will make an interesting experiment.
You’re getting training ADD. Experiment if you want, they are your gains.
i asked about the 20 rep squats as assistance on the q%a jim wendler said it was fine at the time i was doing boring but big i just did the 5/3/1 squats thw widow maker then some light abs and that was it
[quote]deep squat wrote:
i asked about the 20 rep squats as assistance on the q%a jim wendler said it was fine at the time i was doing boring but big i just did the 5/3/1 squats thw widow maker then some light abs and that was it [/quote]
Did u do it with 10RM, or did you find yourself having to use a lighter load?
I’d really like to see one of these supposed 20 rep sets w a 10RM. I understand the concept behind extending the set, but even when you are just standing there catching your breath your fatiguing all the support muscles.
If you’re defining “10RM” as teh heaviest weight you could do for 10 reps with no pause, just up and down like a piston, I could absolutely see that, but you wouldnt need 5 minutes. And a weight that is light enough that you can stand there for 5 minutes is probably too light to bother squatting 20x - you probably wouldnt need 5 minutes
If your goal is added strength, I wouldn’t personally advocate 20 rep squats. My experience with the program was that I gained a good deal of weight, great mental fortitude and toughness, and minimal strength. My 1rm for squats went up maybe 5lbs.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
If your goal is added strength, I wouldn’t personally advocate 20 rep squats. My experience with the program was that I gained a good deal of weight, great mental fortitude and toughness, and minimal strength. My 1rm for squats went up maybe 5lbs.[/quote]
how much of your weight gain was muscle? because I wouldn’t mind gaining extra muscle from the 20 rep squats (while making strength gains via 5/3/1 squats).
[quote]cmchan wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
If your goal is added strength, I wouldn’t personally advocate 20 rep squats. My experience with the program was that I gained a good deal of weight, great mental fortitude and toughness, and minimal strength. My 1rm for squats went up maybe 5lbs.[/quote]
how much of your weight gain was muscle? because I wouldn’t mind gaining extra muscle from the 20 rep squats (while making strength gains via 5/3/1 squats).[/quote]
If you are eating adequately, you will add plenty of muscle doing 5/3/1 as written. Drink a gallon of milk a day and do the boring but big template from the book and you will get results comparable (if not better than) those people normally report with super squats.
Jim talks about this extensively in the book. Buy the book.
[quote]cmchan wrote:
I’ve completed 6 cycles of Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 and have made the following gains:
MP: 50 lbs
DL: 100 lbs
BP: 50 lbs
SQ: 50 lbs
[/quote]
For you to have results like this and then even CONSIDER doing something else is completely fucking insane. There is really no excuse for this question, and no answer other than “You’re an idiot.”
I say that not to tear you down, just to make you realize that you are basically tinkering with something is not only not broken, but is in fact working about as well as anything can work. Start screwing around and experimenting when your gains stall and not a second before.
i did in with about 60% of my training max
made my deadlift day suck though with having such sore legs
[quote]cmchan wrote:
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
If your goal is added strength, I wouldn’t personally advocate 20 rep squats. My experience with the program was that I gained a good deal of weight, great mental fortitude and toughness, and minimal strength. My 1rm for squats went up maybe 5lbs.[/quote]
how much of your weight gain was muscle? because I wouldn’t mind gaining extra muscle from the 20 rep squats (while making strength gains via 5/3/1 squats).[/quote]
I would have no idea how much of my weight gain was muscle without measuring bodyfat levels before and after, which would require me to 1: Have a way to accurately measure bodyfat and 2: Care about my bodyfat%
I put on 12lbs in 6 weeks, but I’ve also put on weight with Westside, stuff from Pavel, and everything else. Just eat big.
If you want to do 20 rep squats, quit trying to shoe horn it into some other program and just take 6 weeks and do it, then return to your strength training.