yep. H.
There isn’t enough basis to say for sure, but on the chance someone else experiences this weird symptom and is unsure what is causing it:
Pretty promptly after starting the GHRP-6/CJC/MGF cycle mentioned a few posts back, at first it seemed I was getting annoyingly obvious acne on the forehead. However I came to realize it really didn’t look like any acne I’ve ever had: basically pinhead-sized red dots.
Additionally there was the fact that sebum seemed to have absolutely nothing to do with it.
After a week or so it was clear that it wasn’t acne, as it was also appearing on the backs of my hands and the tops of my feet: hardly locations for acne. As well as somewhat on the forearms.
Now, some other factors had changed and so conceivably it could have been a weird reaction to something else. But I am not very prone to allergies and have never had things like this before.
Luckily by the time I had had it with this and decided to discontinue, the planned 2 weeks were nearly up anyway, it was nearly time for the IGF-1LR3 phase, and it was no big deal to just discontinue the first and start the latter a day early.
I kept everything else the same. The only thing that changed was discontinuing that peptide mix and taking the IGF-1LR3 (which I don’t think was a curative agent.) The red spots slowly disappeared, taking about 2 weeks to go.
I doubt the GHRP-6 caused it as I have done fine with it before. It might be the CJC or the MGF, or perhaps somehow the combination.
I’m not saying it definitely is.
But if someone else uses these and starts seeing these, then it would be reasonable to suspect the peptides.
Oh, if not for the inevitable hiccups along the path of experimentation…
Can’t blame my luck, as this is the first time I’ve ever suffered anything untoward and weird like that. (Did used to suffer some degree of acne on-cycle and post-cycle, but not since using letrozole rather than a SERM for estrogen control.)
I’m glad it was short-lived and didn’t throw off your intended protocol. Do you think one of the peptides was compromised or do you think you may simply have a sensitivity to one or a combination?
There’s really no telling. I think it would be unfair to the seller to mention even a hint of the name because I have just no way of knowing if the same thing would happen to me with the same peptides from any maker, or not. Let alone to any other person.
Heck I don’t even know if it was the CJC or the MGF, or somehow a result of the combination.
I am guessing that it is probably personal sensitivity. The seller is a well-known one and if one of these peptides usually gives this result for people, there would have been noise about it.
But maybe, even if personal, it is not unique but is something that will strike some percentage of people, even if small. (This is more common really than unique responses.) If so it seemed useful to mention it, so that if someone else gets the red dots they will have more basis to figure that a peptide caused it, rather than perhaps an allergy to some unknown thing to which there just happened to be exposure at about the same time.
Thanks to Bill R. and Brook for this thread. I’ve found it useful and interesting.
Brook, I found your observations regarding Dbol to be interesting. And to confirm, did you find it to be more of a psychological impairment of your workouts rather than a physiological impairment (such as dbol can cause mid-workout with back pumps, etc.)? Lastly, what AD are you using? I’m curious because of what you said about the possible interactions between your AD and the dbol.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There isn’t enough basis to say for sure, but on the chance someone else experiences this weird symptom and is unsure what is causing it:
… at first it seemed I was getting annoyingly obvious acne on the forehead. However I came to realize it really didn’t look like any acne I’ve ever had: basically pinhead-sized red dots.
[/quote]
You may think it bizarre but I am replying because I just got these exact same red dots which I thought was acne at first only yesterday. I was very surprised because I have always had good skin and no problems with acne ever.
I had injected 25mg progesterone for five days. Then increased the dose to 50mg and did that for two days - my skin was glowing. Stopped since it was the end of the cycle and also stopped the Alflutops wich I was injecting concurrently.
I thought it was acne due to the sudden higher progesterone dose and drop, and the onset of menstruation. But today it looks more like a rash that is getting lighter and smaller ( bumpy skin ).
I only have it on the forehead.
It may be completely unrelated to your reaction but what a coincidence just yesterday I was wondering the same about these things which sprang up on my forehead which is a first time for me.
Maybe not!
I have no idea if there’s any mechanism by which either of those peptides might increase progesterone, but I’ll look into it.
Or conceivably it could be more complicated and might not be figured out for that reason, where one of these peptides might have increased a given thing which progesterone also increases.
Or as you say it could be one of those weird coincidences. Interesting anyway, for sure.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Maybe not!
I have no idea if there’s any mechanism by which either of those peptides might increase progesterone, but I’ll look into it.
Or conceivably it could be more complicated and might not be figured out for that reason, where one of these peptides might have increased a given thing which progesterone also increases.
Or as you say it could be one of those weird coincidences. Interesting anyway, for sure.[/quote]
Autoimmune Progesterone Dermatitis.
I think that is what I had.
I think this could be my organism reacting to the synthetic elevation and/or sudden drop of progesterone concentration.
I found this condition was treated in Israel with Danazol and in the UK with Tamoxifen:
"PROGNOSIS AND TREATMENT CHARACTERIZATION
PROGNOSTIC FACTORS
TREATMENT
DANAZOL
Autoimmune progesterone dermatitis: effective prophylactic treatment with danazol.
Shahar E, Bergman R, Pollack S.
Institute of Allergy, Clinical Immunology, and AIDS, Rambam Medical Center, Haifa, Israel.
Int J Dermatol 1997 Sep;36(9):708-11 Abstract quote
BACKGROUND: Autoimmune progesterone dermatitis is a rare condition appearing during the perimenstrual period or following progesterone treatment. Various treatment modalities have been suggested, but most have proved to be ineffective.
METHODS: We used the anabolic androgen danazol as a preventive treatment for recurrent episodes of autoimmune progesterone dermatitis in two young women. The treatment regimen consisted of 200 mg danazol twice daily, starting 1-2 days before the expected date of each menses and continuing for 3 days thereafter.
RESULTS: This treatment regimen proved to be highly effective in preventing the eruptions in these two patients.
CONCLUSIONS: Patients with autoimmune progesterone dermatitis may benefit from prophylactic treatment with danazol.
Autoimmune progesterone dermatitis responding to Tamoxifen.
Stephens CJ, Wojnarowska FT, Wilkinson JD.
Wycombe General Hospital, U.K.
QBr J Dermatol 1989 Jul;121(1):135-7 Abstract quote
A case of autoimmune progesterone dermatitis is described. Exacerbation occurred premenstrually and after intramuscular and oral challenge with synthetic progesterone.
The condition failed to respond to oestrogen, but there has been a marked improvement with the anti-oestrogen drug Tamoxifen."
I was going to look into GnRH antagonists.
Maybe you had some autoimmune “response to X” dermatitis.
“X” may have been an antagonist…or maybe just autoimmune response to that specific synthetic substance.
what about insulin? Don’t GHRP and Progesterone have an effect on insulin?
Just curious since I had similar symptoms on the progesterone as some men reported on GHRP…
Just speculating…
In general don’t know, will have to think about it.
I wouldn’t think it insulin related as I’ve had no problems with insulin itself. I’ve also used GH and so wouldn’t think that the intended-result higher GH levels caused it.
The CJC-etc peptide could be a likely candidate for a problem as it is modified from the natural form. That doesn’t mean that it was the cause, but only that it could be related to an immune problem for that reason.
But, Monday Night RAW is back on again… 
[quote]ericcartman wrote:
Thanks to Bill R. and Brook for this thread. I’ve found it useful and interesting.
Brook, I found your observations regarding Dbol to be interesting. And to confirm, did you find it to be more of a psychological impairment of your workouts rather than a physiological impairment (such as dbol can cause mid-workout with back pumps, etc.)? Lastly, what AD are you using? I’m curious because of what you said about the possible interactions between your AD and the dbol.[/quote]
Kinda both… I use prozac and like to self med with selegeline (which is an excellent combo for me).
Anyway, i found that with dbol (and this is the case after 1 week of use, any time i use it) that it makes me lethargic, depressed, weak physically - but this feels directly related to neural strength/muscle unit efficiency rather than muscle kinetics - i really benefit from the swelling in size from drugs like dbol on strength, more so that neural increases in strength as is common with DHT/more androgenic compounds.
I am going to experiment with drol again, and see if i prefer that - i will be using no less than 75mg/day however, likely the full 100mg/day. I found that with letro it reduced ALL bloating on drol, so i will use adex instead - to benefit from aforementioned strength increases from intracellular water retention.
B
Well i have not experienced that with GHRP… so that may help.
I get the spots - but they are DEFINITELY AAS caused, and are simply my ‘version’ of acne (as i have generally good skin)
These were definitely not acne: no build up of sebum, and formation where acne just doesn’t happen, such as back of hands.
I initially thought acne because of the redness and first-noticed location (forehead) but did immediately think it did not look like any acne I’d ever had in my life. And not a single spot ever developed to looking towards any acne blemish I’ve ever had. Nor did topical salicylic acid do a thing, while for me it always works pretty well for acne.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The CJC-etc peptide could be a likely candidate for a problem as it is modified from the natural form. That doesn’t mean that it was the cause, but only that it could be related to an immune problem for that reason.
[/quote]
I know the cause:
You got mad at me because I said Arnold was average.
And the reason we both got it together is not a coincidence but a deep intra-psychic autoimmune response where I, being female, picked up your psychic outrage like an sms ( who gave you my number? )
: D
…On a serious note, mine is definitely not acne either. The rash is less inflamed today though it attempts to be itchy. I don’t think it was the progesterone per se but the fact I took an overload of a synthetic substance in a short period of time. 25mg a day seemed fine before I got greedy.
If your rash is burdensome may I suggest applying a little bit of NATURAL progesterone cream, it may soothe the irritation and calm the skin down. I think the worst it could happen to you is make you sleep - which will also contribute to your immune system returning to an equilibrium.
Just a thought.
[quote] Brook wrote:
I use prozac [/quote]
Would you consider trying progesterone?
I can tell you from my brief experiment with it that as soon as the substance entered my muscles I felt a deep sense of well being overtake me. I love the Carbolin 19 for the effect of being able to breathe fully but the progesterone took my breathing from just a mechanical response to an experience of contentment.
I know Prozac was dubbed as ‘the happy pill’, well I would say progesterone is the happy hormone.
I also felt quietly powerful and experienced a psychological and emotional stability as in the days when I didn’t have to pay taxes to the Government ( I speak of childhood ).
Though tired and dreading my workout, after the shot I was ready and eager to go to the gym and had excellent workouts.
Strength was not up ( like the Var ) but stamina was through the roof and I became kind enough to let men say hi to me during workout - I even made eye contact with them.
( Don’t laugh, I am highly unapproachable when training )
My skin was also glowing and my heart beat was strong and steady but not “in my mouth”, like with the Var. It just made training possible in a controlled and consistent way.
Of all effects I really experienced an emotional stability which made all other things possible.
No wonder progesterone shoots up in pregnancy. I wouldn’t pass a child if you paid me.
Now I know how women do it - this hormone deceives them.
Thanks! It is about 98% gone now. Whether the length it hung on past the last peptide injection (about 2 weeks to be very largely but not absolutely completely cleared) is due to long-lasting biological effect or long duration of action of one of the peptides – at least the MGF is thought to be long-acting – I don’t know.
Topical progesterone if very very carefully used, by which I mean first looking up the data on transdermal delivery and making certain the delivered dose would be sufficiently low – might be OK for a man. But substantial doses of progesterone I am pretty sure would be awful for a man, based on how undesirable (at least to my taste) progestagenic anabolic steroids are. And compared to the real thing, I think, though am not absolutely positive, they’re pretty weak stuff as progestins.
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
The CJC-etc peptide could be a likely candidate for a problem as it is modified from the natural form. That doesn’t mean that it was the cause, but only that it could be related to an immune problem for that reason.
I know the cause:
You got mad at me because I said Arnold was average.
And the reason we both got it together is not a coincidence but a deep intra-psychic autoimmune response where I, being female, picked up your psychic outrage like an sms ( who gave you my number? )
: D
…On a serious note, mine is definitely not acne either. The rash is less inflamed today though it attempts to be itchy. I don’t think it was the progesterone per se but the fact I took an overload of a synthetic substance in a short period of time. 25mg a day seemed fine before I got greedy.
If your rash is burdensome may I suggest applying a little bit of NATURAL progesterone cream, it may soothe the irritation and calm the skin down. I think the worst it could happen to you is make you sleep - which will also contribute to your immune system returning to an equilibrium.
Just a thought.
[/quote]
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Thanks! It is about 98% gone now.
Topical progesterone if very very carefully used, by which I mean first looking up the data on transdermal delivery and making certain the delivered dose would be sufficiently low – might be OK for a man. But substantial doses of progesterone I am pretty sure would be awful for a man, based on how undesirable (at least to my taste) progestagenic anabolic steroids are. And compared to the real thing, I think, though am not absolutely positive, they’re pretty weak stuff as progestins.
[/quote]
You are welcome.
It is quite interesting to me reading what all the men go through after a steroid cycle and PCT, needing pills to aid sleep, ect…I have done the research on progesterone for myself but I keep thinking wouldn’t men benefit from this on small doses either during a steroid cycle or PCT? I know it is recommended for men in their late forties. It is also recommended for men who are losing their hair even if younger ( apparently it grows hair back in women who have lost it all after a severe drop of progesterone post pregnancy! ). It is used for prostate cancer in men, and to improve their skin complexion and aid sleep.
I have also read in most papers that synthetic, pharmaceutical grade is a no no for both men and women. When you speak of “the real thing” I assume you refer to pharmaceutical grade progesterone. Progestins are not the natural progesterone. Every where I also read the issue of not being able to patent a natural substance therefore pharmaceutical business interest does not foster research. There is also cream that has wild yam in it : this is also a no no, the body cannot convert it into progesterone. The cream preparation also must not contain certain substances and it must be non-greasy. Injections must be USP progesterone converted from wild yams - not ‘pharmaceutical grade’. But I don’t see why men would need or want injections of progesterone when all they require for well being might be 3mg.
When I split my dose into 2 25mg, I experienced somnolence on the second dose and had to fall asleep. When I took 50mg in one shot I felt great and went straight to the gym when I had already said I wasn’t up for it and had a great workout.
If I hadn’t come up with the rash I would have gone up to 75mg just to see what resulted.
So I understand you guys are much more powerful physically and don’t seem to take anything below 100mg. But all a man may need is 3mg of a natural cream. Any way you have a window of 3 to 12 to experiment.
I agree from experience it may be terrible for a man who is emotionally stable. I felt “tamed” and even “domesticated” on it but for me pre menses this is welcomed and even desirable ( I get road rage - I drive a lot - I pick up fight with cyclist, not good, lots of cctv everywhere I don’t even have the freedom to get angry proper, so have to control… ).
But after the exaggerated aggression pre menses I would not want to , nor do I feel the need to have progesterone. If I felt emotional flatness, aggression, apathy, lack of libido, lack of energy and drive I might need it to just push start my organism or stabilize it. I found it to be a great balancing hormone when one’s system is upset.
Here is just a couple of articles that reminded me of the men here:
"Why Would Men Need to Use A Progesterone Cream?
Did you know that men make estrogen and estradiol?
Well they do, but in much lower amounts than women. The male hormone, testosterone, is antagonist to estradiol. Testosterone prevents estradiol from causing prostate cancer by destroying the prostate cancer cells it stimulates. Testosterone does NOT cause prostate cancer. If this were true 19 and 20-year-old males would be developing prostate cancer, as these are the individuals with the highest levels. This is obviously not the case. Males also produce progesterone, although about half as much as females do. The progesterone prevents the body from converting testosterone to dihydro testosterone. It does this by inhibiting the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. Progesterone inhibits 5 alpha reductase far more effectively than Proscar and Saw Palmetto, which are the more standard agents employed in traditional and natural medicine.
As a male ages, his progesterone level decreases, just like it does in women. In women this decease occurs about the age of 35 and men about ten years later. When progesterone levels decrease, the male’s 5 alpha reductase converts the testosterone to di-hydro testosterone, which is useless at removing the prostate cancer cells that estradiol stimulates. Estradiol also stimulates the enlargement of the prostate. This allows the prostate gland to swell and enlarge and in many cases transform into prostate cancer.
The prostate is embryologically similar to the female uterus. Prostate cancer is the NUMBER ONE cancer in men. Prostate enlargement is a major cause of problems in elderly men. It appears we now have a simple, safe inexpensive solution to prevent and treat this problem. There are a large number of anecdotal stories of complete reversals of metastatic prostatic cancers. The clinical research has just begun.
The January 28 JAMA* had an article “To die or not to die?” Most cells in the body die through a more subtle, non-inflammatory, energy-dependent form of cell death called apoptosis. Recent research into the molecular mechanisms of apoptosis has revealed that apoptosis is a genetically programmed process that can become deranged when the components of the cellular apoptotic machinery are mutated or present in inappropriate quantities. Dysregulation of apoptosis is associated with the cause of a wide array of diseases: cancer, neurodegeneration, autoimmunity, heart disease, and other disorders.
All cells, with the exception of brain and muscle cells, multiply continuously. The genes that regulate this cell growth are p53 and bcl2. If the gene bcl2 dominates it will push cells to cancer. If gene p53 dominates the opposite will occur and the cell growth is controlled and the cancer do not occur. The article clearly shows that traditional chemotherapy using poisons to stop cell hyperplasia do not work as they kill normal cells easier than cancer cells. The new idea promoted by the review is to find agents that activate p53 and deactivate bc12 is the hope for curing cancer.
Well folks, guess what the research shows??? Estradiol turns on the cancer gene bc12 and progesterone turns on the anti-cancer gene p53!!! Breast cancer cells do not multiply when women are on progesterone. These hormones also worked for cancer of the ovary and uterus and small cell lung cancer, which is normally a very difficult cancer to treat with a horribly dismal diagnosis.
This is MAJOR news and will provide a radical shift in my recommendations for hormonal replacement. It is fast becoming apparent that nearly all men should seriously consider natural progesterone replacement sometime in their 40s, or even earlier if they have afamily history of prostate cancer. There is also a reasonable likelihood that this will decrease male balding. So, all the men who wish to retain what is left of their hair should start this immediately.
It is recommended that a low dose progesterone cream is used, in comparison to a high dosage cream. When much higher doses are given, the excess progesterone is metabolized in the liver and some of the metabolites may have an anesthetic dose on the brain. I believe that many of the patients I have prescribed the higher dose 10% cream for have experienced some ofthese symptoms. The other consideration has to do with the distribution of the dose. The progesterone cream enters from the skin into the fat. The progesterone is released from the fat into the blood stream in direct proportion to the concentration of the cream. The danger of using a higher dose cream is that there will not be a smooth release of the hormone into the blood stream over the 12-hour period. Since progesterone has a relatively short half-life of five minutes once it is in the blood, this will significantly limit its effectiveness and one will only receive partial benefits from the progesterone.
There are many low dose non-prescription natural progesterone creams on the market. A typical one would have about 900 mg per two ounces, which is about 1.7%. Many are available in the health food store. However, one needs to be very careful that the cream indeed has natural progesterone and in the 1.7% concentration. The dose of natural progesterone for men is 10 to 12 mg per day. Men do NOT need time off like women and can take the progesterone without taking any days off. The normal dose for women of natural progesterone should be about 20 mg per day from day 12 to 26. These doses are split and taken twice a day.
*JAMA. January 28, 1998;279:300-307"
This article below is interesting. It recommends 3-5 mg for men. Max 8mg ( But I have read up to 12mg ):
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/gentlepharmacy/Q-A-Men.html
Obviously I am not advocating the above, it is just my curious approach to all possibilities.
Actually no, by the real thing I mean the actual substance, progesterone.
Thank you for the information! I’d never looked into it. Frankly it scares me worse than injecting (trace amounts of) estradiol benzoate does though. Could be irrational, I admit. If the effect were to give blood levels similar to when in the 20s and on top of that to help the hair, that could make sense.