If You're Not Lean Under 200 Lbs....

Training Bodybuilding
21

Sometimes the best thing to reframe your training, is to happen to witness (or if you’re lucky enough to even train with) someone who understands the level of effort required at every single training session in order to make gains. I’ve always been open to let anyone who wants to train with me, under one proviso: that they do not slow me down. Except for the guys I now consider my ‘training crew’ (all of whom are gunning for shows this spring), no one has ever hung around more than 2 sessions. Why? Because it seems alien to them the degree of how much I push myself, how many times they think I’m almost done with a set, and somehow I bang out 5 more reps, how I look like I’m gonna pass out, but always come back for another set. I demand on a daily basis more than my body is comfortable giving. If you haven’t been to ‘that point’, it may be truly difficult to comprehend. This, more than anything, is what I believe holds most people from achieving what they’re capable of (please don’t anyone start with genetic limits again -lol).

S

22

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TheBigV wrote:

[quote]Wapptor wrote:
What sort of bloodwork are you guys talking about? This question interests me as I’m in a fairly similar situation. My lifts aren’t quite as high but I feel like I have the same problem (super clean diet, more than enough cardio through training history either steady state/interval etc, still “fat”).

I had bloodwork done about 3 months ago by my primary care doctor and everything came back normal/great according to them. I’m just wondering if it’s something specific?[/quote]

Look at the blood test results yourself and compare them to what other people are saying, not just you doctor. He might think free test levels in the low range are good because they are merely within range[/quote]

This guy hasn’t written anything that suggests anything other than his own lack of intensity, genetics are focus are to blame for his lackluster results. If after 5 years no one is pointing out how muscular you are or noticing you stand out more than normal, you likely do not have the genetics for this or the innate drive to make “exceptional” progress.

Them’s the breaks.

However, judging by the “non-sweat” crowd at my gym lately that thinks “working out” now means putting the pin into the top slot on the rack of plates and clanging out some easy reps for EXACTLY 10 REPS…it would seem most do not have the intensity to ever make much progress. They seem to think muscles will jump on them without them having to HURT for it. I would blame that before anything else.

Those who get big do not train like “normal people”. They leave blood on the floor (figuratively speaking) while others stare and watch.[/quote]

Thanks gawd February is almost over…the non-sweat crowd has been thinning in the last week at my gym. Looks like we will have a couple keepers.

23

Stu, it wasn’t hard to get the necessary motivation. Fortunately I was surrounded by hard training folk from the beginning. Of course there were some exceptions, but most of them trained their ass off. And they taught me how to do that. And for that they have my gratitude.

Also I’m a member of the computer geek generation, so after a few weeks of training I found useful stuff on the Internet, youtube. >I know that there is a lot of BS floating around too, but one can easily find the good stuff if they know what they’re looking for. Eg. T-cell alpha, “how do you train?” topics, respected-experienced members, etc<

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TheBigV wrote:

Look at the blood test results yourself and compare them to what other people are saying, not just you doctor. He might think free test levels in the low range are good because they are merely within range[/quote]

This guy hasn’t written anything that suggests anything other than his own lack of intensity, genetics are focus are to blame for his lackluster results. If after 5 years no one is pointing out how muscular you are or noticing you stand out more than normal, you likely do not have the genetics for this or the innate drive to make “exceptional” progress.

Them’s the breaks.

However, judging by the “non-sweat” crowd at my gym lately that thinks “working out” now means putting the pin into the top slot on the rack of plates and clanging out some easy reps for EXACTLY 10 REPS…it would seem most do not have the intensity to ever make much progress. They seem to think muscles will jump on them without them having to HURT for it. I would blame that before anything else.

Those who get big do not train like “normal people”. They leave blood on the floor (figuratively speaking) while others stare and watch.[/quote]

Was that directed at me or “Wapptor”?

[quote]Vir wrote:
Have you always trained 4 days per week?[/quote]

Always been 3-5x per week, rarely 5 though.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Sometimes the best thing to reframe your training, is to happen to witness (or if you’re lucky enough to even train with) someone who understands the level of effort required at every single training session in order to make gains. I’ve always been open to let anyone who wants to train with me, under one proviso: that they do not slow me down. Except for the guys I now consider my ‘training crew’ (all of whom are gunning for shows this spring), no one has ever hung around more than 2 sessions. Why? Because it seems alien to them the degree of how much I push myself, how many times they think I’m almost done with a set, and somehow I bang out 5 more reps, how I look like I’m gonna pass out, but always come back for another set. I demand on a daily basis more than my body is comfortable giving. If you haven’t been to ‘that point’, it may be truly difficult to comprehend. This, more than anything, is what I believe holds most people from achieving what they’re capable of (please don’t anyone start with genetic limits again -lol).

S[/quote]

Well naturally I’m bias but I do believe I push myself that hard. I see the people in the gym all the time who just push out their reps, maybe even grunt a little, but not having true intensity. When I do I set I put everything into making sure I beat what I did last time. For example I did a “widowmaker” set of squats on thursday, got to about 10 to where I normally could not have gotten an 11th rep but I banged out another 7 by taking 1-2 breaths between reps by the end my face was blood red and my legs are still sore right now.

Not only that but the strength progress is there. I’ve had times where I’ve gained strength slowly, very quickly, or even not at all. Although the muscular gains are faster when strength gains are faster it seems like the fat gain is always the same, regardless of anything else. I’m 198 or so now and even though my arms and overall body is bigger than the last time I was at this weight my waistline is the same size (…?). I’ll probably have to go to about 180 or so to be at a reasonable 10-12% body fat or so.

Edit: and just out of curiosity Stu, don’t to stop your reps now right about where they start becoming “grinding reps”?

25

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TheBigV wrote:

Look at the blood test results yourself and compare them to what other people are saying, not just you doctor. He might think free test levels in the low range are good because they are merely within range[/quote]

This guy hasn’t written anything that suggests anything other than his own lack of intensity, genetics are focus are to blame for his lackluster results. If after 5 years no one is pointing out how muscular you are or noticing you stand out more than normal, you likely do not have the genetics for this or the innate drive to make “exceptional” progress.

Them’s the breaks.

However, judging by the “non-sweat” crowd at my gym lately that thinks “working out” now means putting the pin into the top slot on the rack of plates and clanging out some easy reps for EXACTLY 10 REPS…it would seem most do not have the intensity to ever make much progress. They seem to think muscles will jump on them without them having to HURT for it. I would blame that before anything else.

Those who get big do not train like “normal people”. They leave blood on the floor (figuratively speaking) while others stare and watch.[/quote]

Was that directed at me or “Wapptor”?

[quote]Vir wrote:
Have you always trained 4 days per week?[/quote]

Always been 3-5x per week, rarely 5 though.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Sometimes the best thing to reframe your training, is to happen to witness (or if you’re lucky enough to even train with) someone who understands the level of effort required at every single training session in order to make gains. I’ve always been open to let anyone who wants to train with me, under one proviso: that they do not slow me down. Except for the guys I now consider my ‘training crew’ (all of whom are gunning for shows this spring), no one has ever hung around more than 2 sessions. Why? Because it seems alien to them the degree of how much I push myself, how many times they think I’m almost done with a set, and somehow I bang out 5 more reps, how I look like I’m gonna pass out, but always come back for another set. I demand on a daily basis more than my body is comfortable giving. If you haven’t been to ‘that point’, it may be truly difficult to comprehend. This, more than anything, is what I believe holds most people from achieving what they’re capable of (please don’t anyone start with genetic limits again -lol).

S[/quote]
Well naturally I’m bias but I do believe I push myself that hard. I see the people in the gym all the time who just push out their reps, maybe even grunt a little, but not having true intensity. When I do I set I put everything into making sure I beat what I did last time. For example I did a “widowmaker” set of squats on thursday, got to about 10 to where I normally could not have gotten an 11th rep but I banged out another 7 by taking 1-2 breaths between reps by the end my face was blood red and my legs are still sore right now.

Not only that but the strength progress is there. I’ve had times where I’ve gained strength slowly, very quickly, or even not at all. Although the muscular gains are faster when strength gains are faster it seems like the fat gain is always the same, regardless of anything else. I’m 198 or so now and even though my arms and overall body is bigger than the last time I was at this weight my waistline is the same size (…?). I’ll probably have to go to about 180 or so to be at a reasonable 10-12% body fat or so.

Edit: and just out of curiosity Stu, don’t to stop your reps now right about where they start becoming “grinding reps”? [/quote]

I was speaking to you and nearly every guy I have allowed to work in with me who was not on my level somehow found the ability to use more weight if I pushed them to do so…even though they would all swear they “trained hard” before then. I believe it when I see it and your results sure as hell don’t back that up.

As far as the question you asked Stu, for me, hell no. Why would I stop my reps when I can still do more with that weight on my last set? The only sets not taken to failure are the previous ramping sets. The last set is until my arms fall off…so with that alone I doubt your intensity.

26

Oh, and I am also betting it has been way more “3 days weeks” than anything else. Once again, if you can’t put the time in, don’t expect spectacular results. Every single one of you trying to get big needs to be training more than 3 days a week. 3 days a week is for MAINTENANCE after you already get big after several years of training. It is NOT how you get big in the first place no matter what any author says unless your concept of “big” is huge 15" arms.

27

No offense to the big guys here but questioning my level of intensity without any knowledge of how I train isn’t fair. I never said anything about my ability to produce results either, I just feel like I have a slightly more difficult time getting/staying lean. You turned a question about how to interpret bloodwork into a thinly veiled insult towards my training methods.

28

I feel like a lot of guys have the mentality these days that all they have to do is read articles and go to the gym sometimes, and then they can go to T-Nation and present their “routine” and “diet” and if everything is “right” (yet they still aren’t seeing results) then some big guy will come along and tell them the REAL SECRET to getting huge and lean… the one piece of the puzzle they must be missing!

These are the guys that think they’re too smart to fall for infomercials, yet they have the exact same mindset as all the people who do.

And then some big guy does come along, but unfortunately the piece missing is: you have to actually work hard, every day.

Oops, it was supposed to be another lazy training principle… didn’t get the answer I was after this time, better wait 3 months and then try again, or try on a different forum.

29

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Oh, and I am also betting it has been way more “3 days weeks” than anything else. Once again, if you can’t put the time in, don’t expect spectacular results. Every single one of you trying to get big needs to be training more than 3 days a week. 3 days a week is for MAINTENANCE after you already get big after several years of training. It is NOT how you get big in the first place no matter what any author says unless your concept of “big” is huge 15" arms.[/quote]

does this apply with all types of weightlifting? im on 3 days a week of the 5/3/1 program for strength (plus a gymnastics thing on mondays) and i’m wondering, given the fact that i am a beginner, if i did any more it’d probably be too much stress on my body or is that not the case?

30

[quote]Wapptor wrote:
No offense to the big guys here but questioning my level of intensity without any knowledge of how I train isn’t fair. I never said anything about my ability to produce results either, I just feel like I have a slightly more difficult time getting/staying lean. You turned a question about how to interpret bloodwork into a thinly veiled insult towards my training methods. [/quote]

How did I insult you? You haven’t show anything that would put you in the light of someone who trains intensely…including pictures of your progress. With the problems you presented, training intensity is usually the issue. Any pics?

31

[quote]sj89 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Oh, and I am also betting it has been way more “3 days weeks” than anything else. Once again, if you can’t put the time in, don’t expect spectacular results. Every single one of you trying to get big needs to be training more than 3 days a week. 3 days a week is for MAINTENANCE after you already get big after several years of training. It is NOT how you get big in the first place no matter what any author says unless your concept of “big” is huge 15" arms.[/quote]

does this apply with all types of weightlifting? im on 3 days a week of the 5/3/1 program for strength (plus a gymnastics thing on mondays) and i’m wondering, given the fact that i am a beginner, if i did any more it’d probably be too much stress on my body or is that not the case?
[/quote]

I would imagine training for gymnastics, while it can produce good muscle development, will hold back your progress more than anything. That doesn’t mean you quit gymnastics. That is just reality. When people are into several activities that do not compliment each other directly, they can not expect optimal results. That is simply the bottom line.

You have also NOT listed any specific goals.

Once again 3 FUCKING DAYS A WEEK IS NOT OPTIMAL TO BODYBUILDING PROGRESS.

This is a bodybuilding forum.

32

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sj89 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Oh, and I am also betting it has been way more “3 days weeks” than anything else. Once again, if you can’t put the time in, don’t expect spectacular results. Every single one of you trying to get big needs to be training more than 3 days a week. 3 days a week is for MAINTENANCE after you already get big after several years of training. It is NOT how you get big in the first place no matter what any author says unless your concept of “big” is huge 15" arms.[/quote]

does this apply with all types of weightlifting? im on 3 days a week of the 5/3/1 program for strength (plus a gymnastics thing on mondays) and i’m wondering, given the fact that i am a beginner, if i did any more it’d probably be too much stress on my body or is that not the case?
[/quote]

I would imagine training for gymnastics, while it can produce good muscle development, will hold back your progress more than anything. That doesn’t mean you quit gymnastics. That is just reality. When people are into several activities that do not compliment each other directly, they can not expect optimal results. That is simply the bottom line.

You have also NOT listed any specific goals.

Once again 3 FUCKING DAYS A WEEK IS NOT OPTIMAL TO BODYBUILDING PROGRESS.

This is a bodybuilding forum.[/quote]

ok cheers. sorry forgot i was on the bb thread i actually thought this was a different section given the title. but yes my goals are strength specific. and i would say that my lifting is much more imortant than the gymnastics, alot more time effort and money go into that and thats the way it’ll stay.

33

I’m certainly not questioning anyone’s intensity here, I do try to be somewhat less adversarial towards people when offering advice, or even just my particular thoughts on a subject.

Do I stop before grinding? Now I do. But as CT pointed out many times, it’s the ‘intent’ to accelerate, and dominate a weight that is of prime importance. Now sometimes the actual weight may be moving damn slow at the last rep, but I can tell you that there are veins popping in my forehead, my knuckles are white, teeth clenched, and there’s no possible way I could dig any deeper to push any harder. I honestly believe that if I were to go for another rep at that point, it would be my partner lifting it off of me 100%. Sure, CT may say that I’m ‘starting to grind’ by that last one, but it’s a far cry from what point I think most people would go for (3,4, maybe even 5 more reps that aren’t really accomplishing much more than creating fatigue). I did make use of slow negatives at the end of a set when I felt I had no more left in the past, and still do occasionally, BUT I know that to try for one last concentric at that point, would be nothing more than an ego trip to say I did that extra rep, when in reality, my muscles had already shut down, and I really got nothing out of doing the rep.

S

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:

As far as the question you asked Stu, for me, hell no. Why would I stop my reps when I can still do more with that weight on my last set? The only sets not taken to failure are the previous ramping sets. The last set is until my arms fall off…so with that alone I doubt your intensity.[/quote]

That’s why I asked Stu and not you. That’s not meant to sound like I dick response, as far as I know he is applying more of the “perfect rep” principle now. I know this is not how you train.

There is no way I can workout with you to show you how hard I train, we both know that. The only thing I can tell you is that I have seen the pro’s train, I have seen the big guys at my gym train, and I have seen the new years resolution crowd train, so I have plenty of people to compare to. I do push myself very hard, that’s all I can really say to you to “prove” it. I’m not sure why you would “doubt my intensity” because of a question I asked Stu.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Oh, and I am also betting it has been way more “3 days weeks” than anything else. Once again, if you can’t put the time in, don’t expect spectacular results. Every single one of you trying to get big needs to be training more than 3 days a week. 3 days a week is for MAINTENANCE after you already get big after several years of training. It is NOT how you get big in the first place no matter what any author says unless your concept of “big” is huge 15" arms.[/quote]

Actually, no. I trained 3 days/week for about a year but when I started and for the last 2 years or so it’s been almost entirely 4x/week. And honestly, I don’t think most people need to be training more than 4x/week or so. Not that they can’t, but there’s no way if I suddenly started training 5x/week my gains would be so much leaner.

That’s the issue I’m pointing out in this thread. Not that mass gains aren’t coming, but that they come with a lot of fat, resulting in high body fat even well before hitting 200lb.

35

So…bloodwork? Testosterone is what we’re looking for?

36

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

Actually, no. I trained 3 days/week for about a year but when I started and for the last 2 years or so it’s been almost entirely 4x/week. And honestly, I don’t think most people need to be training more than 4x/week or so. Not that they can’t, but there’s no way if I suddenly started training 5x/week my gains would be so much leaner.
[/quote]

Why not? How does more days in the gym, more calories burned and more muscle stimulus for growth NOT sound like a better use of calories if you gain fat easily?

37

Pumped340,
is that you in your avatar?

38

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

I honestly believe that if I were to go for another rep at that point, it would be my partner lifting it off of me 100%. Sure, CT may say that I’m ‘starting to grind’ by that last one, but it’s a far cry from what point I think most people would go for (3,4, maybe even 5 more reps that aren’t really accomplishing much more than creating fatigue).

S[/quote]

If one more rep would have been your partner lifting it off of you, how would some possibly get another 3-5 actual reps?

Originally from reading CT’s new stuff I thought by avoiding grinding reps he was advocating another 2-3 reps being left in the tank. I’m glad they posted videos though because it does seem like, even though they’re avoiding those slow grinding reps, they’re still going to a point where they probably couldn’t get more than maybe 1 decent rep.

Stu did you mention before that you’re from NJ? If so maybe we should train together lol

OK, getting off topic…

39

[quote]TK52 wrote:
Pumped340,
is that you in your avatar? [/quote]

You beat me by two minutes to the same question

40

[quote]jolopez wrote:

[quote]TK52 wrote:
Pumped340,
is that you in your avatar? [/quote]

You beat me by two minutes to the same question[/quote]

Both of you are serious with this? This guy is UNDER 200lbs yet you think he looks like an IFBB sized bodybuilder?