the numbers are not odd at all… if you look at the colleges that have decent strength coaches and actually teach a correct clean, its often the skill positions that have the highest numbers. the linemen might squat more, but the clean is a speed-strength movement, and generally the faster more athletic guys will do more, or at least much more per pound of bodyweight. also, what the kids clean has a lot to do with how long they have trained with me, the kid who is almost to 400lbs just started with me about 5 months ago, he was at 285 then, he would have been well over 400 in high school had he started his freshman year. i dont get most kids till they are sophmore or juniors… the skinny quarterback and the kid who is now at rice just started earlier, so they saw more results.
as far as programs, they are only one small part of the equation, the decisions made by the coach in the training room have more of an effect than what is on paper. but if you want some of my thoughts on training, check out the last couple of issues of the NSCA journal, i took part in a roundtable on periodization that was published as a two part series in the last two issues.
I played and my highest squat was 520. My bench was 270 and my deadlift was 405. Squats had to go down to parallel and on the bench the bar had to touch the chest.
Bigmartin powerlifting does not have a high power component but rather a large force component. To be successful in powerlifting the athlete requires very little power but enormous force. Garhammer did some studies years ago that backs up what I wrote:
Garhammer, J. 1993. a review of power output studies of Olympic and powerlifteing:methodology, performance, prediction, and evaluation tests. Journal of strength and conditioning research 7:76-89
Garhammer, J., and mclaughlin, t. 1980 power output as a function of load variation in Olympic and powerlifting. Journal of Biomechanics 3:198.
CT also wrote about powerlifting in fact this is exactly what he wrote in his pendulum powerlifting article: "the most important physical quality to posses in this sport is limit strength (maximum force production with no regard to time/speed), while strength-speed (the capacity to accelerate moderate external loads) is of secondary, but significant importance.?
To be completely honest Bigmartin powerlifters have used strength training alone with out power training for years with great results. The west side method is a very good method but I see flows ( aries that can and should be improved upon) like the use of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for the repetitive method, why would a powerlifter want useless muscle, maybe to build up the muscles to create better leverage. Bullshit the west side method would be more efficient to use myofibrillar hypertrophy (stronger, and bigger muscles) for the repetitive method.
To be fair you are correct in that powerlifters do need strength-speed, but speed-strength is almost useless for powerlifters Simmons wrote about that in Milo years ago.
[quote]BOSS wrote:
To be completely honest Bigmartin powerlifters have used strength training alone with out power training for years with great results. The west side method is a very good method but I see flows ( aries that can and should be improved upon) like the use of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for the repetitive method, why would a powerlifter want useless muscle, maybe to build up the muscles to create better leverage. Bullshit the west side method would be more efficient to use myofibrillar hypertrophy (stronger, and bigger muscles) for the repetitive method.
[/quote]
Read something on Joe Defranco’s website the other day. He was asked about why, in his westside for skinny bastards program, he utilized high rep training which would lead to “useless” muscle. This is a quote out of his reply:
Experience has taught me that young, ?skinny bastards? benefit greatly from building a foundation of muscle mass, regardless of the fibers that we?re recruiting. This added muscle mass builds a bigger foundation for later training.
“This bigger foundation can lead to a greater peak in athletic qualities that rely on various aspects of strength, namely, speed-strength and strength-speed.”
In response to original question, I’m going to be a sophmore at a 2A HS in Illinois. 240 squat, 170 bench, and 180 hang clean(we don’t do power’s.)
The highest numbers we have are something like
425-squat by 320 pound Sr. OL
245-bench by 240 pound Jr. TE
400-hang clean by 300 pnd. Jr. OL
I have no idea how the last kid got 400 on a hang clean, maybe it is just me? Do other people’s schools have such a high number, because he is the only one here +320 on HC
The west side method is a very good method but I see flows ( aries that can and should be improved upon) like the use of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy for the repetitive method, why would a powerlifter want useless muscle, maybe to build up the muscles to create better leverage. Bullshit the west side method would be more efficient to use myofibrillar hypertrophy (stronger, and bigger muscles) for the repetitive method.
This really cant be understood until a powerlifter reaches very elite levels of strength…the increased leverage with useless muslce mass is very very important…i was flatend out just this wensday doing a 520 pound 2-board becuase my upper back did not have enough mass… hey i dont care if its usless if the 520 gets locked out…and about louie and speed- strenth ask oguard/charles fay from this forum about this…he squats over 800 at 22 years of age…after the IPA nationals last year louie told charles he needed to train his speed-strength to take it to the next level he talked about it on this forum last fall…and have u ever seen the special strengths video…well if you have you saw matt smith wpo lifter and 1000 pound squater doing speed-strength sessions during a circa max phase weeks out from the arnold with 700 pounds of band tension and only 135 bar weight…bm
I disagree with Simmons, just because he said and/or writes something doesn?t make it true. I?m still in the opinion that speed-strength (light loads lifted as fast as possible) is useless for a powerlifter!
By the way I?m a nature powerlifter in the NASA with a total that is very close to elite.
When I was in H.S. we had a hell of a strong team. I broke school records in the Bench, Clean, Squat and tied the Deadlift…(all records still stand to this day, I graduated in 97 @ age 17.)
But our coach has moved on to another school and now the team is pathetic. A guy I played with runs the weightroom and has them doing a TON of bodybuilding movements. A 400lb squat is revered now. It’s a shame.
My senior year we had 3 guys squat 500, and several others did 450+…all legal depth, as my coach was a strict prick. We had several 300+ benchers, mine being the highest at 425. Can’t remember how many, but a few guys had deads of 500+, with my record at 555. A guy on the track team did 525 which was pretty friggin impressive.
Cleans were good too, I think the stronger guys were averaging 250-275, my record was 310…most guys at the school now couldn’t squat that.
There were two rival schools close by where the kids put up similar numbers…made for some great H.S. Power meets. I think they hold the NJ H.S. championships there still (St. Joe’s in Hammonton, NJ)
As someone mentioned the articles about this at elite are great…just cause it’s H.S. doesn’t mean you should expect poor results.
Cowboy92 yes I have tried chains and bands with light loads in a quest to increase speed-strength. I find it to be ineffective for the powerlifting. Now when bands and chains are utilized with moderate weight with the goal of increasing strength-speed it becomes extremely effective for the powerlifter. Remember the power lifts are slow speed lifts not fast lifts like the Olympic lifts.
To clarify my statement in the above post I?m in no way discrediting the west side system, I think the west side system is the best for the powerlifter. Just like Joe Kenn keeps saying your not doing west side unless your at west side.
[quote]glenn pendlay wrote:
im the head coach at a regional development center for olympic weightlifting in wichita falls texas[/quote]
Glenn,
This might sound like an off the wall request, but figured I’d ask. I am a ameteur Highland athlete, ranked 4th in the country currently. I played football throughout highschool and college, and have always sucked at the Olympic movements. Curiosly enough, I grew up in Wichita Falls and will be visiting there in about a month for a week. Do you think there is any possibility of me visiting your center and working with you or your staff to better understand the Olympic lifts?
james, youd be more than welcome to come by anytime. shoot me an email and we can set something up. look forward to seeing you! do you know al myers from kansas? he and i used to train highland games together. i believe hes still one of the better highland games athletes around…
Footsoldier - since you’re from the state of New York, why not ask the s&c coach of the state champions, Jim Massaro how he trains.
Jim is one of the top coaches you’ll ever meet and puts together teams so they win on the field. We did a great clinic together a few months ago in Nyack - too bad you didnt attend.
The Westside system is very advanced and cannot immediately be adopted by high schoolers right away until they have acquired some good basic technique and a base of strength. However once a modified version on the program is used, its results are phenominal and believe me it is not just because Simmons says so. Remember there is basic science behind it, the equation for power is force times velocity over time. Vladimir Zatsiorsky who is a professor at Penn State and a former Soviet coach writes that max velocity is developed with weights 50-60% and max force is developed over 90%. Its basic science. I adopted the system before my junior year of college ball and thanks to the box squatting, i immediately was much faster out of my stance and had a great season, dominating much larger opponents. If you want some advice with high school players, develop a good base of strength and technique. If a 300lb o-lineman can only squat 400lbs, then dont worry about teaching him to clean cause his squat is weak and i think that indicates a weak posterior chain and a lack of explosiveness. Oh yeah, and if you coach high schoolers, if you catch them curling kick their asses! Some of the biggest guns i saw on the field in college ball belonged to some of the weakest guys.
[quote]glenn pendlay wrote:
james, youd be more than welcome to come by anytime. shoot me an email and we can set something up. look forward to seeing you! do you know al myers from kansas? he and i used to train highland games together. i believe hes still one of the better highland games athletes around…[/quote]
Sounds great. I know Al Meyers by name…haven’t thrown with him however.
[quote]glenn pendlay wrote:
james, youd be more than welcome to come by anytime. shoot me an email and we can set something up. look forward to seeing you! do you know al myers from kansas? he and i used to train highland games together. i believe hes still one of the better highland games athletes around…[/quote]
Hey Glenn, can you turn on your Private message ability so i can send you my email? I can’t post it here. Or shoot me yours through a PM.
oguard, the westside system is indeed a good way to train… BUT not the only way! many (probably most) of the strongest people in the world (strongman competitors, throwers, olympic lifters, even powerlifters) dont use the system.
basic science is basic science, but again, many of the top sports scientists in the USA and the world DO NOT advocate a westside style of training. even the russians, whom louie says he got much of his info from, do NOT advocate that style. just giving percentages of maximum where a certain peak of force or power is developed does not prove one system over another!
it is interesting that you immedietly seem to dismiss cleans as a TRAINING exercise for posterior chain strength. if a lifter has weak hamstrings, glutes, back, etc, cleans, done properly are a GREAT way to remedy this. a good way to concentrate on the posterior chain would be to do cleans frequently. of course other things will work also… but the clean is not just a testing exercise, its a great training exercise also.
I do not dismiss cleans, however from my experience, most high school athletes have pitiful form on the squat, bench press and deadlift. Those three exercises are much less technical than doing a clean or snatch correctly. If in a rare case a kid is advanced enough for them, give it a shot. When i interned at a major DI football S&C staff i would say a good 1/3 of the team couldnt clean with good technique. Pure Westside is not the best way to train athletes, when i applied it to my own training as a football player, i still incorporated snatches and cleans, i also did a whole lot of upper and lower body plyometrics. The westside system is not exacly what the soviets use or advocate, rather it was information taken from their literature and applied for powerlifters. Also i suggest you look elsewhere in terms of what top US Olympic strength coaches advocate. We have been getting our asses kicked in olympic lifting for a long time! Bottom line is standard linear periodization doesnt work. Overall stick with basic things with the high schoolers, do not get overly complicated and as a matter of fact most westside things are too complicated for the average high school athlete. These are my opinions from my experience as a high school and college football player, a powerlifter and a coach.
Our school is under 400 kids, and our top benchers were: 340, 340, 325. As far as squats, nobody really did them. I had the biggest squat on the team, at a measly 400 lbs! Nobody really did cleans either, myself included.
I think these benches are considered very high for our enrollment size. Some of the D1/4A high schools in our area can’t even match these! Sad but true.