I feel like I have to ask, VT, is English your first language? Cause that shit didn’t make any sense. No offense, really - I just couldn’t understand half the stuff in that post.
Well english is my first language. That was a drunken ramble , and im on a pocket pc.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Yea i understand you weren’t prioritizing them… that was just a point i was making, and providing some background for. Like you said, it’s all about RFD though [/quote]
Remember though guys, “miles per hour speed” (or the speed at which your arm/leg/body travels from point A to point B) is not the only type of speed that one should be training for (nor is it necessarily the most important type of speed).
“Initial speed” (or the ability to get the jump on your opponent) is equally as important (more important IMO) and should also be highly prioritized and trained.
What do you mean by initial speed? sounds more like just good timing to me. By “MPH” i don’t mean necessarily the speed that your limbs are moving but how quickly you can activate ALL of your high thresh hold motor units. RFD is more of a muscle efficiency thing than anything else.
And VT…damn dude you typed that on POCKET PC? I’m fucking impressed. lol i tried to post here on an iphone once, fuck that shit.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
What do you mean by initial speed? sounds more like just good timing to me. By “MPH” i don’t mean necessarily the speed that your limbs are moving but how quickly you can activate ALL of your high thresh hold motor units. RFD is more of a muscle efficiency thing than anything else.
[/quote]
No, “timing speed” is a different type of speed.
There are basically 3 types of speed:
-
Initial speed (how fast and suddenly you can get off the firing line/your ability to get a jump on your opponent)
-
Miles per hour speed (basically how fast your limbs/body are moving through space)
-
Timing speed (has to do with things like rhythm, reaction time, etc…)
Most people spend the greatest amount of time working on Miles per hour speed (things like lifting weights to improve RFD would be an example of training to improve MPH speed). It’s important if you ever want to reach your speed potential, but again it’s not necessarily the most important type of speed.
Some people work on timing speed. Understanding what rhythm is and how to break it, can allow you to basically slow down your opponent’s thought processes, thus making you appear faster and improving your ability to land your strikes. I don’t see all that many people employ the use of timing speed though.
Initial speed is probably the least commonly trained type of speed (or at least the one that I see the fewest fighters demonstrate).
Yes, MPH speed can aid in the expression of initial speed, but it’s more a matter of proper mechanics, relaxation, explosiveness and having a “quiet” mind (one not cluttered with thought and instead acting in accordance with one’s internal rhythm, I know. it sounds esoteric).
Initial speed (if properly trained) will drastically, and I mean drastically, improve both how fast you appear to be moving, and your success at hitting your target without missing or getting hit in the process.
If properly trained and mastered it can make it nearly impossible for your opponent to stop your incoming attack. I know Joe Lewis has stated that in his prime there wasn’t a black belt alive who could even touch his forward hand strike (could be a jab, finger jab, back fist, etc…), let alone block it.
I’ve stood in front of him and tried to stop his rear hand strike, and could not. Not even close. If properly trained it’s nearly impossible, human reaction time just isn’t fast enough.
I’ve also worked on the mechanics a bit myself and can pretty much make them work at least 90% of the time from a stationary position (and am working on making them work from a moving position). It’s well worth the effort/time spent practicing them IMO.
Unfortunately I don’t really have Joe’s permission to be posting the details of these principles on open forums. Training people and selling his knowledge is how he makes a living, so I’d feel like I was ripping him off if I went into any detail about the specifics. Hopefully though I’ll have at least peaked some of your interests and you’ll check out his material. Or even better yet, perhaps you’ll seek him out and do a seminar with him if you’re really serious about learning it.
For muay thai we modify some tradition exercises to work explosive or maximal instant motor unit recruitment, one such way is simple military pushups. we use improper gym class form, fists next shoulders just below chin, explode of the floor, stopping just before elbows reach 90 degrees and allow your fists to come off the ground, and catching yourself back down to almost touching your chest.
Run 30 second drills of these types of pushups, also changing positioning to allow for hook and upper cuts. And doing 30 seconds of straights, as fast as possible. , then hooks then uppercuts. alternate between the punches and push ups in 30 second intervals with no break progressing through the positions and punch types. so one group 3 minutes do three groups without resting, with goals of increasing chest projection with push-ups and number of pushups as well as increasing the number of punches thrown.
This is one our major training pieces for prepping for fights from the muay thai side, then we do 45’s, and other drills for kicks, knees and elbows.
I think xen and sentroguy are saying the same thing different ways.
And my instuctor trained under Jow Lewis, but I know alot of our training is a mixture of training philosophies.
This is the muay thai gym I train at, more for xen, not a shot but I remember someone saying how we trained wasn’t actually muay thai. He is very open about sharing training philosophy and conditioning,
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
For muay thai we modify some tradition exercises to work explosive or maximal instant motor unit recruitment, one such way is simple military pushups. we use improper gym class form, fists next shoulders just below chin, explode of the floor, stopping just before elbows reach 90 degrees and allow your fists to come off the ground, and catching yourself back down to almost touching your chest.
Run 30 second drills of these types of pushups, also changing positioning to allow for hook and upper cuts. And doing 30 seconds of straights, as fast as possible. , then hooks then uppercuts. alternate between the punches and push ups in 30 second intervals with no break progressing through the positions and punch types. so one group 3 minutes do three groups without resting, with goals of increasing chest projection with push-ups and number of pushups as well as increasing the number of punches thrown.
This is one our major training pieces for prepping for fights from the muay thai side, then we do 45’s, and other drills for kicks, knees and elbows.
I think xen and sentroguy are saying the same thing different ways.
And my instuctor trained under Jow Lewis, but I know alot of our training is a mixture of training philosophies.
This is the muay thai gym I train at, more for xen, not a shot but I remember someone saying how we trained wasn’t actually muay thai. He is very open about sharing training philosophy and conditioning,
[/quote]
Looks like a great school. 
sorry guys to leave such a long post. but this article is very interesting, but about speed, i hope im not rude for being off subject.
Recently an acquaintance gave me a copy of QiGong/KungFu Magazine, the March 1999 issue, which featured an article written by Master Ron Heimberger. My friend did not quite understand the principles that Master Heimberger was trying to elucidate. Because of my background as a private student of Yip Man, and my subsequent involvement in Wing Chun Kung Fu, he thought I might be able to throw some light on the subject. I ask the reader’s indulgence for my attempt to explain what Yip Man taught me.
Since my English is not very good, I read the article several times. I am glad that Master Heimberger is kind enough to take the time to educate the public. If all Wing Chun instructors possessed an open mind like him, amenable to reason, and were willing to go to the trouble of explaining their ideas and experiences to others, I am sure it would benefit everyone interested in the art. However, there are some parts in Master Heimberger?s article with which I do not agree. Certain points that the author makes are somewhat obscure to me, particularly his references to Jacob Bronowski and Albert Einstein. For example, Master Heimberger mentions that Bronowski – commenting on Newton?s Second Law of Motion – said that force equals mass times acceleration squared. This confuses me because, as I understand it, Newton?s Second Law states that S F = ma, which does not square acceleration.
Since Mr. Heimberger discusses speed in Wing Chun, I would like to take the liberty to share my interpretation of the principles and theories about speed based on what SiFu Yip Man taught me and on my own experience. Naturally, what I write here is filtered through my own perceptions and prejudices; I certainly do not claim to speak for the Wing Chun family, and would welcome any correction that is offered. That certainly would help me improve. It is my hope that many Wing Chun members will share their ideas with all of us, no matter who they have learned from. The experience of using the Wing Chun techniques in fighting is what counts. After all, no single fight is the same. We can always learn something new, or – win or lose – find out something from each encounter.
What makes the Wing Chun style so interesting is that one does not have to rely on physical build, but on a logical sequence of economic movements. Certainly speed is extremely important in fighting. However, no matter how hard one trains, how long one works to improve, there are always physical limitations. You can always meet someone faster than you. Some people are simply born with more talent. Wing Chun allows one the possibility of overcoming an opponent?s inherent superior speed by applying the principles of the art. Yip Man taught that in Wing Chun, there are several types of speed. If you cannot overcome your opponent with one type of speed, you can beat him with another. In other words, if you can apply the Wing Chun theory of speed, you can actually become faster. In this regard, there are four areas of concern:
1. SPEED OF TRAVELING: This is the type of speed we normally refer to, that is, a punch or kick, a speed which speed can be calculated in feet per second. With consistent practice, one gradually improves the speed of the movement.
2. SPEED OF DISTANCE: Wing Chun straight-line theory states simply that a straight line between two points is the shortest distance. Therefore, punching straight is shorter and quicker than a hook punch or a swing. To bring your foot with a roundhouse kick to the head covers a greater distance than a shorter and quicker punch to the head. It is the same as trying to punch to the shin; that is, it is much shorter and faster to kick to the shin. To use an analogy: if you and I both stand in front of a building and have a race to the back door and you go around the building while I go straight through the building from the front door to the back door, you may be the faster runner, but I may get there before you because I have less distance to cover.
3. SPEED OF READINESS: From a resting standing position, when one tries to throw a heavy punch or tries to kick with power, it is typical to cock back the leg or arm before executing the movement. This not only telegraphs the move, but also wastes valuable time in the extra motion. In Wing Chun, the power is not generated just by the moving hand or leg, so there is no need to cock. One uses the other side of the body to pull back as he or she rotates to push out the punch or kick simultaneously. For example, if one is going to throw a left punch, one initiates power by pulling the right arm and shoulder back as fast as he or she can, while punching with the left hand at the same time.
4. SPEED OF REACTION: In general, people spend most of their time practicing their techniques in their forms alone until they are very good with all the techniques, but in actual combat the application is ineffective. This is like learning to ride a bicycle by sitting in a chair moving the legs and arms simulating the bicycle experience. When that person actually tries to ride on the bicycle, he or she will surely fall. This is because the proper reflexes and feeling of balance have not been developed. Yip Man used to say if you want to learn to swim, go down to the water; don?t just move your arms and legs and think that you are a swimmer. A fight requires at least two people. You can train and fight with yourself all day long, but unless you apply the techniques with another person, you will not get very far.
Wing Chun has only three forms. After learning and understanding the first form, one trains with Chi Sau, which requires two people, and from which one develops the feeling of contact and reflex. Then there are the technique drills which also takes two people. When you work with the drills over and over, month in and month out, they become habit, second nature. When an attack comes you will react to it without thinking. Fighting happens so very fast and you may be upset, angry, unprepared or even scared. There is no time to think.
Such are the Wing Chun Theories of Speed that I learned from Yip Man.
SiFu Duncan Leung
i feel this could be of benefit to anyone, in any art .duncan is my teachers teacher by the way.
Opinion: Why Wing Chun Doesn’t Work
As a prelude to this piece I will say this: Anyone who learned, trained, and fought with Wing Chun for a long period of time should understand some truths of the art. I do not discredit anyone’s experiences or call anyone or any lineage the “true” one. Yip Man taught everyone differently, but this is what my research indicates. I don’t mean to offend anyone or their lineage, I am in the same boat you are!
Wing Chun now is bashed by many as a crappy and ineffective martial art, despite what it claims. These same people usually promote grappling, boxing, muay thai, and other arts that are seen in popular MMA venues… And for the most part they are right. 97% of the “Wing Chun” and Wing Chun practitioners out there suck are are an embarrassment to the Art.
I include all forms of the art from JKD to Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, BlitzDefense, and etc. Just start looking at some of the Wing Chun clips on the net and you’ll see in almost all the real fights or MMA fights that Wing Chun people are getting their ass beat. And don’t tell me your lineage is better, I guarantee you that 95%+ of them would get their ass beat just as badly. I used to be proud to be known as a Wing Chun guy, now it is getting to be embarrassing.
Why is this? 1) People don’t train hard enough to actually fight a trained fighter or a enraged, tough, and/or savvy street fighter. They can only beat other Wing Chun people up, classmates up, or other non-fighters. (Big Fish, little pond). 2) Wing Chun is for the most part watered down and a lost art. It’s a empty shell. As Yip Man told Allan Lee, “It only looks like Wing Chun but it has no substance”. And this is how Yip Man wanted it - he never sold out his true art.
Some people have either consciously or subconsciously realized this and tried to fill in the gaps with other tools/arts, but this is usually only slightly better, if not a lot worse. Others stubbornly stick to a “Pure” Wing Chun, but these purists are usually the ones getting their asses beat and giving the art a bad name. It is not always their fault, in principle they are right. Wing Chun, as a complete art, should be able to handle any type of fighter it faces. But the guys who modify Wing Chun to work for them are also right - why practice something that will get you beat up?
“Although Yip Man had multitudes of students… the number of formal disciples he accecpted could be counted on three fingers on one hand. To these few who pledged their fidelity in the ritual of three kneels nine kowtows in the traditional SiFu Worship Ceremony he taught Wing Chun Wugong. This includes Wing Chun Kung Fu plus Gongli, the art of exerting power, plus the practical application of Wing Chun fighting techniques…” Wing Chun Warrior
Yip Man said he passed on the complete knowledge to 5 people ONLY. The rest of his disciples and students only got the “empty shell” (This means you and your lineage (Sorry)). Sure, Yip Man’s private students know all the forms and a lot of techniques, and drills, but the real system contains so much more. It required years of very tough training, a lot of pressure on the disciple, and years of sacrifice on top of mastering everything Yip Man taught to his private students.
I don’t want to bash any lineages or Sifus here, but the more Wing Chun I see the more I am convinced that this is right. Yip Man did not teach the entire art to anyone he trained publicly, or any of his publicly known private students/“disciples”. He only taught about 1/2 of it. I don’t even think his real students even trained with the public classes. So if your teacher learned in a classroom setting (even if it was private later on), then they probably fall into this group.
Learning the other half of the system meant training daily with Yip Man in person for about 4-5 years on top of the rest. These Sifus who say they know it all and trained privately with Yip Man for 9 months, 2x a week, or even a year 7x a week, etc… They were not formal disciples, only private students. They are missing a lot. And now, so are we.
Yip Man let 9 people fight for his Hong Kong school. (Not including the 5 he passed the complete system on to - these 9 included Wong Shun Leung, Lok Yiu, Taun Hong, etc.). These fighters took that “empty shell” and made it work for them… for the most part. Most evidence points to the fact the Wing Chun fighters only did okay in the challange matches. They usually got just as beat up as their opponents and there was no clear cut winner. Even Wong Shun Leung. In his very highly publicized match with White Crane master Ni Wo-tang there was no clear cut winner and both combatants were bleeding. As everyone said, it was a boring match.
Therefore, in my opinion Yip Man had 14 “fighters” at the end of his life, 3-5 of which knew the complete system. Of these 5, the last true masters of the Art, only 1 or 2 have passed down their complete knowledge to date. The training is extremely hard and tough, and people now-a-days want instant kung-fu. It is my belief that this generation of masters will be the last, and I’m not alone in this thought. No one trains 6 hours a day with a dedicated teacher for the 5-7 years it takes to master this system the way it was meant to be.
So what can we do about it? Unless you are related to one of the 5 true inheritors of the system, in my opinion all you can do is train what you are given, and fight. Get better, fix your mistakes, fill in your gaps, and fight some more. Be like WSL, Bruce Lee, and etc. Take what you know and learn to make it work for you.
Yip Man once asked, “Do you think you can learn something from a famous SiFu?” He went on to explain that just because he is famous it doesn’t mean that you can learn something worthwhile from him.
He gave a scenario. Suppose Yim Wing Chun comes alive to teach you and it turns out what you learn is not practical for use in a real fight. It’s outdated and useless. Then someone who is nobody shows you some Wing Chun technique that really works in a fight. Which do you think is better?
He also asked one of his formal disciples once, “Do you belive everything I say?”
The disciple replied, “Of course.”
Yip Man then said, “If you believe everything I say then you will never become a good fighter”.
“Why shouldn’t I belive you? You are my SiFu”
“Try [the techniques I teach you] out for yourself. And when you have a problem I will correct it”.
Yip Man would say not to blindly believe everything he said. He wanted you to do your own research using common sense with his teachings as a guideline. After all, how do you know you are not being cheated? (Boy, this sure applies to today’s world of Wing Chun). Yip Man told all of his students to go out and fight (and a few actually did, but not most, and not most of the ones teaching today). How many people do this today vs how many are teaching Wing Chun as if they know something?
Yip Man also had the habit of telling all of his student they were right. Even during his lifetime most of his senior students were using the hands and techniques differently. They all thought they were right. Most never took his advice and didn’t believe him. They should have tested their Wing Chun as he told them to. Even his own son did not.
“Application is the only way to verify the truth”
Of course you have to respect your SiFu. Use your common sense. Accept what they say, research it. Test it. Don’t mystify the art. If you can’t see it, and if you can’t feel it, then how do you know it is correct and practical? Go fight with it, this is the only way to understand.
Additional Reading:
My Sifus by Sifu Lee Che Kong. Allan Lee, Yip Man’s last disciple, went to Sifu Duncan Leung, one of the five to complete the full system to finish his training and become the 6th Sifu under Yip Man to get the full system. In this article Allan says some of the same things my research has found.
Wing Chun Warrior: True Fighting Episodes of Duncan Leung - Yip Man’s third formal disciple to take the three kneels and nine kowtoes and to get the full and complete system. This book is mainly very toned down stories of a few of Duncan’s Fights. It was not written by Duncan. It also mentions a little on how and why Duncan learned differently, and how Yip Man told him at the time he only had two true elder Kung-Fu brothers.
The Essence of Wing Chun by Sifu Lee Che Kong - Mainly the criteria and Gung Lek are the important parts of this article. Gung Lek is PART of the system that was not passed down to everyone completely.
Who are the 5?
I get this question a lot. The only one we know for sure 100% is Duncan Leung. Alan Lee was the 6th, but Yip Man didn’t train him on the secret parts, he sent him to Duncan because Yip Man was too old. Alan is the only one that knows the names Yip Man gave him for sure, and he will say you wouldn’t know any of them.
Other people have said proposed the 5 at various times, usually including their own Sifu. Yip Man is said to have spread the knowledge among 5 of his public students as well each giving them 1/5th and telling them if they every got their act together and stopped bickering they’d figure the system out. They never figured it out, but the 5 were supposedly: Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shong Tin (he got the internal aspects), Duncan Leung (external, condition, power generation, and swords), Hawkins Cheung, and Allan Lee. However, I personally see flaws in this. 1) Duncan was not a public student. 2) Some of these guys got along great and never bickered. Most of the in-fighting was not with these guys. 3) The generation differences don’t add up. WSL and CST were his 3rd and 4th private students in Hong Kong, and Allan Lee was the last and a Lok Yiu student.
It just seems odd he’d pass on 1/5 of the system to these guys in this manner. Some trained with Yip Man almost 20 years apart. Maybe he did pass on 1/5 of the system to 5 people, but if so I tend to think it was either the 5 true disciples or 5 of his private students. Not a mix or people 20 years apart.
From what I’ve seen of Wing Chun I will say this. 1) Not everyone got the same from Yip Man. 2) I tend to believe Duncan got a lot more than any other public Sifu I’ve seen in the application and power training of Wing Chun. 3) CST got more of the Internal 4) I tend to believe that Yip Man passed the shell of Wing Chun only onto his public students - some of which took that and made it very effective 5) Wing Chun as a whole and complete art is dying out and will not last another generation.
Careful berserk, there are some fallacies you’re chasing after.
I’ve had some exposure to WT, as here in Germany it’s pretty big.
Strangely, WT practitioners often do exhibit ginormous egos. Their grand sifu here, Keith Kernspecht, does raise some good questions in his books and teachings but is so hopelessly in love with his system that I can’t help but attribute a lot of modern WTs practical failings (as I see them) to him and his way of promoting. Failings as in encouraging too much devotion, as in oversimplifying various fighting principles.
First to you vtberserk, Wing Chun definetely has many interesting and unusual characteristics. They can be used effectively, no doubt about it.
But your big mistake is swallowing this “style” idea.
You know the style discussion. Certain packages are def. better then others, but a real martial artist has to learn a few of them. That is also the gist why these pointless debates (best style? no, stupid, it’s the fighter that counts! No, boxing is better then Aikido! Really, what about a boxer on his back!?.. ) are really just an example of asking the wrong question. (Not “what is the best style” but “what should true martial artist persue”, or, for different folks, “what should I do in a specific situation” as in “I’m looking for a specific skillset”)
Think of one style as an aspect of fighting.
Wing Tsun/VT/YC/whatever is essentially a standing boxing style, emphasizing trapping as a way to maximize “situational superiority” (as I call this) , using (but overstressing) a few sound principles and going seemlessly with a few unfancy techniques like kicks and close maneuvers like ellbows, joint locks or even sweeps.
That idea of Yip Man selling a hollow shell is bullshit.
There is no hollow shell as there are no styles.
Speaking of styles comes often as a marketing idea, to inspire children and to give traditionalists what they yearn for.
If you go to a boxing gym and the trainer teaches you only footwork, then what? Did you learn boxing? No, but you did learn something, though. The science behind the boxer’s footwork is a BIG chunk of it’s effectivness.
A true martial artist will be able to see it’s worth and be able to apply it, as he progresses and picks up different arts.
You can’t really water down an art. As long as it ever was a genuine art, and you learn parts that are feasible in themselves.
Most of the time, this can be tested quite easily.
Martial Arts techniques and principles can’t die out like Dinosuars. Even if not taught, they will reemerge, for they are logical conclusions, consequential aplication of skill and force in the swirl of fighting individuals.
The foundation of WT is not an obscure mist. If a bunch of dedicated practitioners would do the same what the Gracies did a few decades ago, perhaps the “spring” of WT would bloom a second time. Perhaps some new techniques would flower, new strategies and implementations would bloom?
Today’s WT would be small and insignificant compared to that.
Take care-
Schwarzfahrer
I have to chime in on circuits, too.
I prefer them less intense then most guys here. The idea is not to shoot for a fixed time frame a la 30 sec or rep out like a berserker.
Try them in a fashion you can really control, like
6 chins
10 explosve push ups
12 jumping lunges with your arms up
shadow box three long combos, doing a quick burpee sprawl in between them
start anew
no rest between rounds, 6-10 rounds
the idea is not to totally fatigue yourself as most people do circuits.
I believe every advanced trainee will be able to do at least 36 chins,60 pushups etc. If you’re heavier, reduce reps a bit, if you’re lighter or more advanced do some more- really simple and goes without saying.
The idea here is to perform each rep very fast, controlled, explosive, fluid. Play with the tension. Try to minimize the moment of nervous power output. Be in control as you adjust the rythm and breathing.
Your mind should not wander off like you do with heavy long sets, you should be totally aware of your surrounding.
p.s. Of course you can do murder circuits a la Bas Rutten (look it up on youtube or better, buy his stuff and honor the man)
But with this, there’s a different idea behind it.
Personally, I utilize various different circuit types in my training. I think they are the most efficient way of conditioning.
What I like do from time to time is create a ridiculous super intense crossfit-esque (gettin ready for the flame) circuit that would last maybe 8-15 minutes right before my technique training to super fatigue myself so that my body goes into survival mode when sparring and doing drills and such.
Other times I’ll do a really light warm=up and then do my skill workouts super fresh and work on crisp punches and such. Maybe throw in a light circuit at the end.
Basically I’d play around with light days and heavy days, trying to stay one step ahead of overtraining. I found my wind would recover fine, and my muscles would always start to overtrain first.
[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Personally, I utilize various different circuit types in my training. I think they are the most efficient way of conditioning.
What I like do from time to time is create a ridiculous super intense crossfit-esque (gettin ready for the flame) circuit that would last maybe 8-15 minutes right before my technique training to super fatigue myself so that my body goes into survival mode when sparring and doing drills and such.
[/quote]
Hmmm, before your technique training? That doesn’t sound like a great idea to me honestly. You want your nervous system to be as fresh as possible when doing technique training, otherwise you’re just imprinting sloppy/poor mechanics into your motor memory.
I’m fine with wanting to put yourself in survival mode or doing drills to mimic the stress levels of actual combat though, but that’s not really technique training.
That sounds like a much better idea to me. You can still do the fatigue/survival workouts of course, just don’t do them when you are doing skill work.
Yes Schwarzfahrer every thing you say is true, I myself did not write that article I only agree with certain points, whoever wrote that is anonymous . Whoever that is is my kung-fu brother . Did you read my first post its not the style its the man.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Personally, I utilize various different circuit types in my training. I think they are the most efficient way of conditioning.
What I like do from time to time is create a ridiculous super intense crossfit-esque (gettin ready for the flame) circuit that would last maybe 8-15 minutes right before my technique training to super fatigue myself so that my body goes into survival mode when sparring and doing drills and such.
Hmmm, before your technique training? That doesn’t sound like a great idea to me honestly. You want your nervous system to be as fresh as possible when doing technique training, otherwise you’re just imprinting sloppy/poor mechanics into your motor memory.
I’m fine with wanting to put yourself in survival mode or doing drills to mimic the stress levels of actual combat though, but that’s not really technique training.
Other times I’ll do a really light warm=up and then do my skill workouts super fresh and work on crisp punches and such. Maybe throw in a light circuit at the end.
That sounds like a much better idea to me. You can still do the fatigue/survival workouts of course, just don’t do them when you are doing skill work.[/quote]
I see what your saying and generally I’d agree, let me clarify what I mean by technique training. Not double end bag, pad work, technical heavy bag work or the like.
More like defensive drills, working on keeping reflexes sharp, reaction drills, punch out drills, partner counter-punching, meat grinder sparring etc. Stuff that drilling when your exhausted will become second nature, I.E. auto-response.
You don’t think about it because your too tired. I wouldn’t recommend doing a but kicking circuit and then working on making your jab crisp with your coach holding the pads. I also try and make my circuits so mentally challenging that the actual drills afterwords feel easy, even though I’m going 100%.
I’d throw in those type of workouts once or twice a week, about 5-6 weeks out from a fight, and stop maybe 2 weeks before a fight.
[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Personally, I utilize various different circuit types in my training. I think they are the most efficient way of conditioning.
What I like do from time to time is create a ridiculous super intense crossfit-esque (gettin ready for the flame) circuit that would last maybe 8-15 minutes right before my technique training to super fatigue myself so that my body goes into survival mode when sparring and doing drills and such.
Hmmm, before your technique training? That doesn’t sound like a great idea to me honestly. You want your nervous system to be as fresh as possible when doing technique training, otherwise you’re just imprinting sloppy/poor mechanics into your motor memory.
I’m fine with wanting to put yourself in survival mode or doing drills to mimic the stress levels of actual combat though, but that’s not really technique training.
Other times I’ll do a really light warm=up and then do my skill workouts super fresh and work on crisp punches and such. Maybe throw in a light circuit at the end.
That sounds like a much better idea to me. You can still do the fatigue/survival workouts of course, just don’t do them when you are doing skill work.
I see what your saying and generally I’d agree, let me clarify what I mean by technique training. Not double end bag, pad work, technical heavy bag work or the like.
More like defensive drills, working on keeping reflexes sharp, reaction drills, punch out drills, partner counter-punching, meat grinder sparring etc. Stuff that drilling when your exhausted will become second nature, I.E. auto-response.
You don’t think about it because your too tired. I wouldn’t recommend doing a but kicking circuit and then working on making your jab crisp with your coach holding the pads. I also try and make my circuits so mentally challenging that the actual drills afterwords feel easy, even though I’m going 100%.
I’d throw in those type of workouts once or twice a week, about 5-6 weeks out from a fight, and stop maybe 2 weeks before a fight.[/quote]
Ahh I see. Ok then yeah, I don’t disagree with that at all.
More of a nutrition question than a training one, but n the interest of not cluttering up the board i’ll put it here (I asked a similar question in the nutrition forum but without much success).
Do you use liquid post workout nutrition after conditioning or technique workouts? While I train I sip a mix of 15g whey, 30g malto in 500mls water, which is something I picked up on a T-Nation article. After weights I use MyProtein Recovery XS- should I bang one of these down after conditioning/technique work as well?
Yup…
Then when I get my appetite back I go scarf down a shitload of food. Spaghetti being my favorite. Every training session. But I lose weight fast.
So it really depends on what your metabolism needs. Imo you should still be downing DEFINITELY some sort of protein, carbs, and amino acids…
Pre Training
Shitload of water
FiniBar (fucking great)
Protein, Amino Acids, Carbs shake
During training I prefer
Amino Acids
Waxy Maize (Carbs)
separate container of water with light electrolyte supp in it.
post training
Protein, Carb (a lot), Amino’s shake
a lot of food
another protein shake later
i ve gained quite good amount of strenght using isometrics, but now i will have two weeks of free time (no training,no swimming etc) so i have created something like this
monday- Bodyweight strenght training
iso neck workout
pike press/handstand pushups 4 sets of 10
pull ups 3 sets of 1-2-3-4-3-2-1
glute ham rise 5x5
onelegged squat 5x5 (weighted)
kneeling rollout 30 reps
javorek ab circuit
wensday- conditioning+technique
shadowboxing with focus on technique
minnute drills (burpees etc)
8 x 2 min rounds
thursday - strenght endurance training
4 sets of quality rep. of pushups different kinds
bodyweight rows 4 sets of quality rep.
goodmorning with bands 3 sets of 20 reps
pullthru with bands 3 sets of quality rep.
abs → wheel rollouts 15 both hands
15 each hand holding the wheel
biceps curls 3x12
4 x quality rep → squats with 20 kg of resistance
friday - jump rope, shadowboxing
3 x 4 min of jump rope
5-8 rounds of shadowboxing
saturday
iso neck workout,stretching,punches with resistance bands,drilling technique
sunday
prehab exercises → rotator cuff, pcv rollin
what do you think about it?
bio-> 193cm height, 95 weight
kickboxer
goals->be better at kickboxing, keep conditioning at high level,
get stronger (+ strenght endurance)
be healthly
aestetic reasons ( hah biceps curls becouse my biceps is really lagging part of my body)