'How to Train' Questions

Enders_Drift · March 13, 2010, 9:27pm

Hmm I agree that lifting weights is not entirely important but I would argue that technique is getting a bit too much credit as well.

The key elements are probably in order:
Accuracy
Experience
Technique
Endurance
Speed
Power

That will vary some depending on the art but especially since in competition there are weight brackets your power and speed will only go so far in either direction. But two people of equal size but one has many years more of experience and pinpoint accuracy will usually win.

I spar all of my students and even though many are faster and/or stronger than I am my experience and precision always beats them because they waste too much energy throwing easily blocked or dodged attacks that I can then counter attack them. I can read their body language and know what they’re going to do ahead of time AND know what position they are going to land in so I know where my counterattack should occur. To me I take for granted that I understand the principles of fighting and can easily visualize the movements but not everyone can and its extremely difficult to see improvement on those who just don’t really understand the concept.

I think its very similar to chess in that respect, you have to be able to see the entire attack and what the outcome will be before it occurs. The quicker you can see all of the possible scenarios and how to react to each the better you will be.

jocko7 · April 7, 2010, 4:46am

Droogan, read 666Rich’s rant about spending your time on technique. He’s right, unless your skills are good, strength and conditioning isn’t going to give you what you need.

I also loved artercareamerica’s comment about going to some gyms where they are total dicks to newcomers. I understand that it’s all part of the game, but it’s lame. Your advice is spot on, however. Some of the top gyms don’t like newcomers because the dropout rate is so high and they don’t want to waste their time with someone who’s probably gong to quit anyway. Get some technique work in at a gym where they actually like to TEACH and not just compete. There’s plenty of time to compete down the road.

Droogan_Leader · April 30, 2010, 6:51am

Well, right now I’m not necessarily trying to gain or lose weight, I’m at a weight that lets me cut down to class lower comfortably. I am actually focusing most of my efforts on my technique days, where I train skills anywhere from 2 to 3 hours. On my other days, I’m mainly lifting to stay strong and keep my body strong. I remember back when I was playing football in college, it sucked having to lift then practice, but it made a world of difference in keeping my body in shape and protected.

Those days that I’ll do strength and conditioning, I will probably work out for about two hours tops. I’m in a place right now where I have a lot for time for proper nutrition and recovery. I’m thinking however of switching from a total body routine to something different. It’s becoming clear to me that my upper body is very weak and small, disproportionately so from my lower body.

Could you suggest a lifting routine I could that isn’t as taxing, but doesn’t ignore leg training? I’m fortunate enough that the gym I now train at is an amazing facility and has a standard weight-room facility and separate Olympic lifting room (where all the CrossFit nuts usually are :P).

Thanks for the advice guys, I’m still trying to figure out what works best for me through trial and error.

ptotheb · June 4, 2010, 8:31am

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]666Rich wrote:
kind of a rant.

I think lifting is great for fighting, but alot of people over do it. The number one thing that makes my power and speed increase is repetition in the air and on the bag. You want buakaw like kicks? Throw 1000 round kicks a day on pads/bag for a year and then come back to this thread.

When i started training a long time ago I had a tall wiry friend, naturally built for kicking. Me im a shorter stock kind of guy, i couldnt kick to save my ass. I started working kicks 2 hrs a day for the next 4-6 months and shot past alot of more advanced guys in terms of speed and power.

I dont compete in boxing anymore, but im a much much better boxer now that I do a TON more shadowboxing work. Speed, power, fluidity…everything…

A friend of mine started out at like 5’4 250 lbs. Now he is a 145lb 2-0 mma fighter with numerous grappling titles. Most people in western pa know him. His training is pretty much ALL martial arts, this guy would just grapple for hours a day…for the past few years… and he is always in great shape and one of the best tacticians I have ever met.

I also think its very en vogue to neglect aerobic training in favor of higher intensity stuff. I have always fought best when I was doing longer runs and really training my aerobic system than when i did pure high intensity drills.

Know the demands of your sport because the energy systems, strength required…etc is going to be different from sport karate, muay thai, mma, boxing , badmiton etc.

I cant count the number of times though i would see threads on sherdog like “how do i improve my punching power” and people would post stuff like turkish getups…plyo routines etc…but really unless you are a pro, and a seasoned one, working endless and endless technique is what will give you that. Most thai boxers in thailand do just that, hours of technique (well, its also conditioning in that)

Long story short, with abilities such as punching, takedowns…kicks…you are going to get out of those techniques what you put in to practicing them in terms of hours…and years…and everything else is ACCESSORY.

Now for some inspiration go read about Mas Oyamas (founder of kyokushin) training and what he did to make himself better. Ditto for Kimura during the heydey of judo…[/quote]

Great rant, and I totally agree.

I love lifting weights, but I have long said this- fighting and lifting are completely different, and some of the best fighters who’ve ever lived never touched weights. Weights help, of course, but a fighter needs so much more work on technique than anything else- he could be the strongest man in the world, but if he doesn’t have the right power chain going into his punches, and if alot of his energy is bleeding off through incorrect technique, he’ll never hit hard.

And shadowboxing constantly has helped my boxing enourmously as well.[/quote]
I have to disagree. None of the good fighters neglect strength. People say guys like Fedor never touched weights, when in fact he’s busy with barbells, logs, sledgehammers etc etc. Strength is an essential part of fighting just like technique is,… that being said Strength doesn’t mean “how much ya bench?” core strength and hip strength is very important when it comes to power, technique can only take you so far. If strength didn’t truly matter we wouldn’t be having weight classes. Show me one fighter who claims to not have touched a single weight. I dare you!

Come to think of it, most of the guys saying strength is irrelevant are the lighter guys who do not feel “at home” in most commercial gyms.
sherdog.net/forums/f13/josh-barnett-lifting-mma-769014/

crazyfit · July 31, 2010, 1:03am

How to train to win:
The predictors of performance succuess for combat athletes are: a BASELINE aerobic fitness level ( around 55ml/kg/min), strength,speed, power, and LOWER BODY recruitment.
There’s currently too much emphasis on the aerobic component and not nearly enough on anaerobic capacity.

Studies show a work-to-rest ratio of 4:1- 1:4, 2-5 seconds of standing activity or 20-40 seconds of ground activity.This means the fighting is above anaerobic threshold, even during rest periods. Stead-state cardio does not address this energy-system need.Too much science for you? Well, the program itself is easy. No more science-read on.

After a baseline aerobic capacity has been established, the strength and conditioning program should consist of : repeated short sprints and high-intensity resistance exercise.

Build anaerobic capacity: intervals, 3-10 seconds, work-rest ratio of 1:1-1:3, 90-100 max effort( hills, sled, sprints, rowing, burpees)

Build strength: compound movements,Olympic lifts, 3-5 sets, 1-5R/set, 80-100% 1RM

Build power: upper,lower body & rotational, 3-10s, 1-5r/set, 30-100% 1RM ( plyos, med balls, throws, bounding,etc.)

Mesocycle:
Wk1: light
Wk2: very high
Wk3: med
Wk4: high
Perform MMA skill work FIRST, then do S&C work. Alternate high-intensity MMA days with low-moderate-intensity S&C days, and vice versa.

Program components:
Foam roll-movement prep-dynamic warmup(15-20 min)
Speed work (10 min)
Power work(10 min)
Strength (20 min)
Metabolic conditioning (20 min)
Cool down (10-15 min)

Sample day:
Speed: shuttle sprints,med ball slams
Power: KB throws
Strength: unilateral legs,vertical press & pull,anti-rotation core, unilateral legs
Metabolic cond.: rower HIIT, 30s:90s

Get the picture? Give it a try for an 8-week run. You’ll kick some serious ass.

Ski_USMC · September 5, 2010, 12:33am

Bench Press/Any press in general question.

Although there is no direct correlation to striking and the concentric and eccentric motions of pressing (due to the dynamic nature of the punch), wouldn’t performing pressing activity assist in scapular stability and therefore improve striking or striking strength potential?

I am thinking that performing super maximal holds of bench and other types of pressing, or after the final set holding the weight locked out for an extended time, would assist in increasing scapular stability. It would be similar to a Turkish Getup except the weight that can be used would be far greater.

You could probably do this as well with a pull in the contracted position (think the top of a pull up)

Any opinions or has anyone attempted this?

Ski_USMC · September 18, 2010, 7:40am

The question is more speculative for the sake of conjecture rather than any specific training goals of my own. I was seeing if there is anyone who has seen carry over.

As I understand it isometrics was a pillar of Bruce Lee’s training, and although it probably wasn’t the primary reason for his ability I have reason to believe that isometrics provided a more stable platform to strike from his shoulder girdle. Any opinions, theories, or studies?

Spartiates · October 15, 2010, 10:03pm

What do y’all think of jump squats (if that’s the right term: a squat where you go all the way down, then spring up into a jump with weight on your back).

Today instead of doing my usual heavy lower-body routine (heavy deadlifts mostly), I decided I needed a break, and substituted a much lighter (olybar + 90 pounds) jump squat (on a pad). I really like it, and it felt (and I know that doesn’t mean much, so that’s why I’m asking) like if I made this a regular thing it would help with explosive strength in a way regular squats/deadlifts wouldn’t.

goldengloves · November 6, 2010, 2:01am

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
What do y’all think of jump squats (if that’s the right term: a squat where you go all the way down, then spring up into a jump with weight on your back).

Today instead of doing my usual heavy lower-body routine (heavy deadlifts mostly), I decided I needed a break, and substituted a much lighter (olybar + 90 pounds) jump squat (on a pad). I really like it, and it felt (and I know that doesn’t mean much, so that’s why I’m asking) like if I made this a regular thing it would help with explosive strength in a way regular squats/deadlifts wouldn’t. [/quote]

They build off of each other. I’d scale back on the squats, continue with the jump squats[ballistics], and add plyo.

krazylarry · November 17, 2010, 4:59am

[quote]crazyfit wrote:
Metabolic cond.: rower HIIT, 30s:90s

[/quote]
Could someone explain this, or link me a video please?

Fistiecuffs · December 6, 2010, 1:10pm

I’ve been thai boxing for about a year now. I’ve been doing lifting or a couple of years, about 2 years of what one might actually consider smart lifting, not just fooling around with the weights with sloppy technique.

After I started to take a more serious approach to thai boxing, thus increasing the number of session a week up to 4 or 5 (I go to the local thai boxing gym about 2-4 times a week for one hour session of quality training, rest is work done on heavy bag, usually doing about 8x3m rounds with 1 min rest in between rounds, focusing on technique but still keeping the intensity as high as I can), I’ve had to decrease the times I lift in a week. That means usually one pretty intensive session of compound lifts for 1 hour. After this I’m usually pretty banged up, and need to take a day off.

Lately I’ve really got interested in Olympic lifting, since I really feel like heavy dead lifting is taking the explosiveness out of my kicks. Because of shoulder issues, I can’t really do heavy back squats or jumping squats either, but they don’t limit me for doing my power cleans. So, I was wondering if it would be smarter to split the lifting to 3 or 2 lifting sessions in the week.

Doing 1 hour of heavy lifting (usually includes at least 5 sets of deadlifts) really fucks up all my technique training, but I figured around 2 sets of powercleans not done to the failure (considering I still have to keep some focus on improving the technique) shouldn’t limit my thai boxing sessions too much. Upperbody movements (without heavy pressing, just as I said I have some shoulder issues) don’t really limit my training session in any way.

So, which would be more beneficial for improving my physique and thai boxing performance, one shit hard session of lifting once a week after all the thai boxing stuff is done, or 3 session split over the week (I have to do the before the thai boxing sessions, because my gyms training schedule doesn’t allow me to do otherwise considering I have other things to do during the week as well) consisting of about 6-10 sets in total, lasting about 30 min.

krazylarry · December 6, 2010, 9:23pm

1 The deadlift is not an olympic lift.
And 2 weights will not make you slow, in face they will make you more explosive. You are just sore and tired, eat more.

Fistiecuffs · December 7, 2010, 1:26pm

I know deadlift isn’t an olympic lift, sorry I expressed myself poorly. I meant I think olympic lifting would suit my goals better than deadlifts with nearly maximal loads, because they would work my explosiveness more than just maximal strength.

What I’ve understood is that heavy lifting (80% of 1RM or more) for reps under 5 doesn’t really increase your speed and explosiveness all that much, but make you capable of lifting bigger weights, but lifting lighter weights as explosive as possible will work explosiveness more than lifting maximal weights. Thats why I tought olympic lifting would make me faster and more explosive than deadlifting. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

Spartiates · December 7, 2010, 4:21pm

[quote]Fistiecuffs wrote:
I know deadlift isn’t an olympic lift, sorry I expressed myself poorly. I meant I think olympic lifting would suit my goals better than deadlifts with nearly maximal loads, because they would work my explosiveness more than just maximal strength.

[/quote]

Strength is strength. A lift where you take a weight from the ground and bring it over your head means you’re using a weight that’s really light for your legs, do you can get it up high.

I wouldn’t use Olympic lifts for anything other than working on technique for getting better at Olympic lifts: I don’t think they are good strength or condition-building tools in themselves, they are a test of strength and technique.

krazylarry · December 9, 2010, 7:03am

[quote]Fistiecuffs wrote:
I know deadlift isn’t an olympic lift, sorry I expressed myself poorly. I meant I think olympic lifting would suit my goals better than deadlifts with nearly maximal loads, because they would work my explosiveness more than just maximal strength.

What I’ve understood is that heavy lifting (80% of 1RM or more) for reps under 5 doesn’t really increase your speed and explosiveness all that much, but make you capable of lifting bigger weights, but lifting lighter weights as explosive as possible will work explosiveness more than lifting maximal weights. Thats why I tought olympic lifting would make me faster and more explosive than deadlifting. Correct me if I’m wrong though.[/quote]
Yes it does increase speed and explosiveness. If you add 50 pounds to your deadlift and stay at the same weight you will run faster and jump higher. I have not run or jump in over a year, just lifted. This past weekend I was doing burpes at my boxing gym, I never jumped so high in my life, and I was tired. And a few months before I was playing touch football with 2 ex college WR and one ex pro SS I went to high school with, all of a sudden I am just as fast as them. Cuz I was stronger at the same weight.

Jed_Sanders · December 10, 2010, 10:27am

Hi TNation!
I recently started MMA and really need to improve my endurance for fighting. I also lift weights and am switching from push/pull to full body 3 times a week today. Im looking for some workout ideas that i could do to improve the kind of stamina needed for fighting, and how i could balance that with the lifting and mma training twice a week(which is an hour and a half of warmup, stretching, punching/grappling techniques, and usually a bit of sparring).

Heres what im doing right now:
M:weights
T:mma
W:weights
TR:mma
F:weights
Sat& Sun Off

SILVERDAN7 · December 21, 2010, 3:06pm

[quote]Jed Sanders wrote:
Hi TNation!
I recently started MMA and really need to improve my endurance for fighting. I also lift weights and am switching from push/pull to full body 3 times a week today. Im looking for some workout ideas that i could do to improve the kind of stamina needed for fighting, and how i could balance that with the lifting and mma training twice a week(which is an hour and a half of warmup, stretching, punching/grappling techniques, and usually a bit of sparring).

Heres what im doing right now:
M:weights
T:mma
W:weights
TR:mma
F:weight
Sat& Sun Off
[/quote]

Stamina is sport specific. If you run every day for a year, work yourself into amazing aerobic condition and then try to swim a quarter mile, you will be fucking dying. You know why? Because you have been running, not swimming. Your body adapts to deal with the specific stress you impose on it meaning running makes you a faster runner, not a faster swimmer, or puncher.

So,

you should be doing alot more mat and bag work. Intervals, non-stop, it doesnt matter, but based off of your sched. now you are weight training and taking MMA classes a couple times a week. Switch the schedule so you are practicing more than lifting. If you just started, and have anything resembling a decent strength base, you should be spending way more time on your sport specific, Like one or two full body lifting days with some short intense cardio as openers and finishers like complexes or sled push.

Dre_Cappa · December 31, 2010, 6:03am

I like what both of you have to say here. I have been reading alot on S&C for MMA/BJJ lately. Like 666Rich said, I think alot of MMA conditioning coaches and athletes overlook the importance of having a good aerobic base. I think higher intensity stuff has its place, but once an aerobic base has been established. Joel Jamieson has mentioned that the aerobic energy systems have become overlooked as of late. When I first started training again, I had been doing alot of interval type work. I could handle that easily, but would gas out during sparring and I would be sucking wind. More sparring and grappling time has also helped with that. Skill work can also act as conditioning work.

Some guys like Fedor don’t even do alot of weight training. He does alot of rolling and sparring and says that’s where he gets his strength from. Jamieson and guys like Rob Pilger are also big on finding out what a fighter’s weaknesses are and addressing them. Too weak? Add in some more ME or heavier lifting. Too slow? Work DE or more explosive power-oriented movements. But the take-home message is still drill the technique and skill work over and over, as well as don’t let the lifting get in the way of the sport training. Fighting is not a bench press contest.