This seems pretty early to be this close to not being able to hit your numbers. That says to me that you set your training max too high out of the gate. That’s a problem with an easy solution. Lower your training max by 10-15%. Jim recommends going “too light” on the training max so you can progress for a long period of time and execute explosive, precise reps. Like Pwnisher mentioned, you can use your assistance lifts to really push hard and build muscle. He has some great posts that further explain this philosophy on his Instagram and his website.
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Thanks for the advice with the assistance work.Seems ive never tought that though, of had a misconsecption about it, because i understood the assistance should not be used full throttle. Seems that there is something more to learn.
A question regarding the potentially too high training maxes. before getting into the metioned 5/3/1&5’s progression cycle, i evaluated my 1RM the following way:
day one: Squat an bench. Warm-up with 5s, then triples, doubles, then singles with 5min rest until i failed. The rep before the one that failed was considered as the 1RM. Same on the second day with deadlift and OHP.
Those numbers are then lowered by 10% and then used as training max to calculate the values for the respective cycles. Is there a misunderstanding?
when you found you 1 rep maxes, did you just walk into the gym and work up to a single to see how strong you were? Or did you do some kind of short 3 week peaking block, planning to achieve the highest 1 rep max you could on a “test day”?
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it was the former. As described in the post above, i did it like so:
Warm-up with 5s, then triples, doubles, then singles with 5min rest until i failed. The rep before the one that failed was considered as the 1RM.
Those numbers are then lowered by 10% and then used as training max to calculate the values for the respective cycles.
By the way, today i started the third 5/3/1 cycle after a deload week. I did not increase the weights. But i could not manage to get the last rep of the the top set done.
Your TM is way too high
Im going to assume you have long arms.
I got a gut feeling your leverages arent good for benching.
So how can i get the correct one? Either i applied the method described in 5/3/1 the wrong way (see post above), or something else if of. On the other hand, if i lower the values even more, the bar will become empty for some of the first set (e.g. for OHP the first set would be 18kg and 20kg). That does not feel right as well.
yes, benching is not what i like the most. Over the last twelve month, i could not add any weight to the bar (and since using 5/3/1 the maxes even decreased). But as i’ve learned here, bad leverages, age and alike are just boundary conditions to deal with. The question is: how? Hence the very first post of this thread.
This is fine.
Use a TM that is something you can perform for 5 strong reps.
Own the main work. Don’t struggle on the reps. Own the supplemental work. Struggle on the assistance work.
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Unexpectedly, it seems that the hardest part of the upcoming training years isnt the reps or the TM, but to face the truth.
Being honest to myself that my previous PRs seem to be the result of pushing myself to quick and to hard to the limits for the sake of fast results instead of sustainable growth. Now that i lower the pressure, my body drops back to what he is actually capable of doing without consitently buring out, and the true level of strength is lower than that what i could admit to myself.
And it also seems that it is not this or that program that leads to success, but to face that there is a path with no shortcuts beforehand.
I’ll be back in couple of weeks. I will stick to the plan, but first i will rebuilt my mindset.
Thank you.
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Removing ego from training can be very difficult but is very beneficial for experiencing progress and achieving results.
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Unless you are going to compete in powerlifting, your one rep max is really not all that important except as a training number to set your percentages off.
It sounds like you basically did a type of peaking program that power lifters use to get ready for a meet. To your point, it’s not sustainable. That doesn’t mean there isn’t merit in doing it though.
I am sure you still have gains to be made.
It takes thinking about your goals in years, not weeks though.
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Hi Guys, here is an update what has happened after finishing the latest cycle, which was my third cycle following 5/3/1 5’s progression template.
A)
Over the last cycle, my strength performace has dropped again. After the previous cycle, in which i could not meet the templates’ numbers for the top set, the weights were lowered according to the plan. now, at the end of the current cycle, im no longer capable to even meet the new lowered numbers. For example: before using 531, i could bench 5x5 using 60kg, now i fail at top set of bench set that is acc. to plan 5x30,5x36, 5x43,5 5x58,5 and 5x 66. I could not even do 1 rep with 66.
The same applies for the other main exercises, in more or less the same range. What was doable in a 5x5 manner is now not doable in a 1x5 manner.
On the other hand, the assistance exercise numbers have gone up. To my feeling, they do not fit to the main lift numbers. For example (this is from the lastest cycle as of today).
Bench: 5x30,5x36, 5x43,5 5x58,5 and 5x 66 → >But i can do 5x12 with 45 easy
Squat: 5x41, 5x51, 5x61, 5x71, 5x81, 5x91 -->> But i can do 5x12 with 55 easy
Same applies for the other exercises. Which means, given by the numbers, the first two of three sets of the 5x5 are lower or to par with the assistance weights, but way lower in number.
B)
I did not make proper calculations, but may it be that the way of calculating the numbers using the 531 method breaks down if you use low weights like mine? for example, in 531 on succes you increase by 2.5 / 5kg on success, but you lower of failure by 10%. These numbers are in relation to your 1RM of different effect, depending on wether your 1RM is 65kg or 300kg (2.5kg of 65kg is 3,8%, while 2.4kg of 300kg is 0,8%). Is it really suitable do to the calculation in that manner, if the gap between a 5x5 and a 5x12 is that close to eachother?
C) Over the last cycle, not only the numbers have dropped, so did my hunger. before 531, i was hungry all the time, and getting in 2g Protein /kg Bodyweight - and the other stuff alike - was fairly easy. Now, i really have to force myself to get the stuff in, my hunger is lower. And overall, i’ve visible changed body composition from muscle to fat. I dont have measurements, but i feel it in my belt waist and in the with of the sleeves of my shirts. Bodyweight has remain the same. Overall, that does not seem to me like a strategy for getting bigger and stronger. What are your thoughts? Thank you!
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???
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Short answer: this routine isn’t a good fit for you.
Long answer: from the outside, the 5/3/1 template you’re using is very similar to the program you got started with. It seems strange that you’re having so mych trouble.
What did one of you “old” workouts. Like lifts, sets and reps. And what does one of your “new” workouts like.
Where are the differences? Less frequency doing the Big lifts? More assistance lifts tiring you out?
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What are you doing for the conditioning portion of 5/3/1?
Why are you benching and squatting for 5 sets of 12? What 5/3/1 program are you following? What you are referring to as assistance work is what is typically referred to as supplemental work.
By chance, are you using an app to run 5/3/1?
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I was wondering that myself… because its not the 5 pro and no where does have i ever seen Wendler ever mentioning that high of reps for anything like FSL, SSL , BBB .
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Are you doing Bench and squats as your main workout, supplemental and assistance? So using the same exercise for 5/3/1 sets, 5x5(which I believe is done as first set last, where you use the weight from your first 5/3/1 set for a static 5x5, not a ramp up like you just did on your 5/3/1 sets) and then 5x12?
Typically the assistance exercises are a push movement(something that works Chest, shoulders and/or triceps), a pull movement (something that works Back and/or biceps) and a single leg or core movement. These are always going to be lifts different from your main/supplemental lifts. For example: incline dumbbell press, pullups and walking lunges. You could use different assistance movements every session so you can hit all of your major musculature. To me, it seems like you either didn’t read the book or are taking some serious liberties and seeing poor results as a consequence.
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Whatever the reason, I think this is kind of the key conclusion.
The folks more familiar with 5/3/1 are saying, perhaps, you’re running a version that does not align with the recommendations. Whatever is going on, you’ve empirical evidence that something else worked better for you. I’d probably tweak my course in your shoes.
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Thanks for your respones guys. Just to make things clear, when i stated in my last message (see above) the 5x12 was an example on to explain my confusion about the weights that the 5’s progression system gives as a result. I still try to understand where the drop in strength comes from. So i made the example with the numbers from the latest cycle, and compared them to what i can do fairly easy. Instead of using “5x12” as example, i could also compare as follows:
Current cycle, 5’s Progression numbers:
Bench: 5x30,5x36, 5x43,5 5x58,5 and 5x 66 → >But i can do 30reps with 45 easy
Squat: 5x41, 5x51, 5x61, 5x71, 5x81, 5x91 -->> But i can do 30reps with 55 easy
The whole example was made trying to explain my confusion about the numbers that the wendler system spits out, doing the calculations. Considering the first three sets from 5’s progression as warm up, there are 15 “heavy” reps per main lift per week.
Does that really make sense to do only 15 heavy reps per week to get strong?