How Much Protein Do We REALLY Need?

Nutrition
41

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:
http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/protmyth.htm[/quote]

This thing you’ve quoted is just some guy I’ve never heard of talking about how he interpreted a bunch of studies… that’s your definitive source?[/quote]
I searched out the Lemon study and other than an abstract found the article with greater explanation. You could always check his sources.

And I’ll take it over “well that dude is big and he eats 300 grams daily”.

As if you need an entire bottle of lighter fluid to light a grill.

Where would you definitively put the line of diminishing returns?[/quote]

What exactly is the negative to erring high on protein intake? So I take 300g when optimal is really 227.5g. I could spend 4 years experimenting on finding the exact right amount (spending presumably half that time on the “under” side, shorting my gains) or I could just err on the safe side.

Say you have a glass of water with a small leak. Your job is to keep it full. Do you spend time calculating the exact rate at which the water is leaving the glass, and turn on the sink to produce exactly that amount of water… or do you just leave the water on full blast, let it run over the top and be confident that the glass is always full?

There is a downside to under-eating protein (shorting your hard-earned gains), no downside to overeating (no health risk to high protein has ever been established), so why not overeat it and make sure your tank is full?[/quote]
While waste is plausible it doesn’t answer the OP.

Perhaps he is on a budget, a diet who knows, who cares. He had a question. Fuck it, OP, eat 7 grams of protein per pound of body weight.

42

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
I dunno, until I see ONE SINGLE person who has an impressive physique or deadlifts 600lbs eating less than 1-1.5g/lb protein, I will keep doing that myself. If someone else wants to be the guinea pig, be my guest… I’ll stick with what has worked for thousands.[/quote]
The study I posted recommends 1.8 grams…[/quote]

per KILOGRAM. Which is less than 1g/lb.[/quote]
So what are you ranting about, exactly? That’s more than you suggest.

43

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Most people could not handle that much protein on a long term basis with out that. I know I tried and failed miserably.[/quote]

Random question did you go from one day eating 100grams to the next day eating 200?[/quote]

No it was gradual and planned because it took me a long time to wrap my head around the idea of eating 2g per pound of LBM. I just added a shake or five between normal meals - and I was eating five time a day with protein at every meal. It still hurts me to think about it now.

I got huge eating this way but not huge in the way I wanted - I just tried to convince myself that I was “powerlifter big”. :slight_smile:

I the last 6 months have shed most of it and have gained some appreciable muscle by eating less protein and way more fat.[/quote]
So what is your weight? how much protein do you estimate you eat? and how much have you gained?

When you added the protein was the extra all shakes? In that case wouldn’t the fact that many are made from poor ingredients or even dried milk that some people don’t digest well be the problem?

44

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
I dunno, until I see ONE SINGLE person who has an impressive physique or deadlifts 600lbs eating less than 1-1.5g/lb protein, I will keep doing that myself. If someone else wants to be the guinea pig, be my guest… I’ll stick with what has worked for thousands.[/quote]
The study I posted recommends 1.8 grams…[/quote]

per KILOGRAM. Which is less than 1g/lb.[/quote]
So what are you ranting about, exactly? That’s more than you suggest.[/quote]

No, it’s not.

1.8g/kg is LESS than 1g/lb.

Math is hard.

45

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Most people could not handle that much protein on a long term basis with out that. I know I tried and failed miserably.[/quote]

Random question did you go from one day eating 100grams to the next day eating 200?[/quote]

No it was gradual and planned because it took me a long time to wrap my head around the idea of eating 2g per pound of LBM. I just added a shake or five between normal meals - and I was eating five time a day with protein at every meal. It still hurts me to think about it now.

I got huge eating this way but not huge in the way I wanted - I just tried to convince myself that I was “powerlifter big”. :slight_smile:

I the last 6 months have shed most of it and have gained some appreciable muscle by eating less protein and way more fat.[/quote]
So what is your weight? how much protein do you estimate you eat? and how much have you gained?

When you added the protein was the extra all shakes? In that case wouldn’t the fact that many are made from poor ingredients or even dried milk that some people don’t digest well be the problem?
[/quote]

I try to get between 100 and 150 grams of protein per day but really I let hunger decide.

As far as the quality of my previous high protein diet it was very poor - and yes most of the extra protein was from supplements. This was before I understood about clean eating and just followed what the gurus said I should do - eat lots of protein and as frequently as a possible.

Two years ago, after ending my “bulking phase”, I was a fat and bloated 280 lbs. It took 18 months to drop 30 lbs with calorie restriction and conventional exercise. Six months ago I was 247 and managed to drop to 210 in under 5 months using a high fat, low carbohydrate diet. Currently I am just shy of 220 lbs. Since I have started bulking again I have only increased training intensity and frequency and eat when I am hungry - which is more often now that I workout more frequently and more intensely.

46

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MacSaintson wrote:
Heres the deal, I dont know anybody who consumes under 200 grams of protein a day that I would want to look or perform like. All the people whose eyes get large when I disclose that I eat well over 250 grams of protein a day then proceed to tell me it is unnecessary cannot get under my bar weight and generally suck at life.[/quote]

Basically this. If you want to look like the average American, then eat the recommended daily allowance. People looking to build more muscle than 95% of the population probably shouldn’t eat like 95% of the population.[/quote]

Agreed, the avg American consumes very little protein, and that’s SAD :wink:

47

I posted a study on here recently where they found a higher protein intake lead to greater muscle gain compare to a low or moderate intake. High intake IIRC was around 3g/kg of BW. Not positive on that, so you’d have to do a search, it’s Friday night, I won’t be doing it :wink:

48

Let me add this. John Berardi, a PhD in nutrition recommends about 300g protein per day for scrawny guys looking to gain muscle.

This is a company that does not make money off of selling protein powders. That’s good enough for me.

49

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]MacSaintson wrote:
Heres the deal, I dont know anybody who consumes under 200 grams of protein a day that I would want to look or perform like. All the people whose eyes get large when I disclose that I eat well over 250 grams of protein a day then proceed to tell me it is unnecessary cannot get under my bar weight and generally suck at life.[/quote]

Do you supplement with hormonal or digestive support?

Most people could not handle that much protein on a long term basis with out that. I know I tried and failed miserably.[/quote]

My body took some time to adjust I would say about a month or so. I went from eating around 130-180 grams to anywhere between 250-350 now I did not slowly add or anything but thinking back that is what probably caused my house to smell like burning rubber and dead skunk.

From your experience I would surmise that you were drinking to many shakes. Shakes are cool and all but when I overdo them is when my house starts to smell funny again.

I always find these threads about protein kinda silly. I know observation doesn’t not mean much in the scientific world but until there is a test I can take that will tell me how much protein I need to eat I am gonna aim to overshoot that son of a bitch every time.

50

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:
As if you need an entire bottle of lighter fluid to light a grill.

Where would you definitively put the line of diminishing returns?[/quote]

I would say it depends on how big the grill is.

And I’m actually sticking with the analogy, not being sarcastic.[/quote]
But this is a ratio, how much per…

51

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

[quote]scj119 wrote:
I dunno, until I see ONE SINGLE person who has an impressive physique or deadlifts 600lbs eating less than 1-1.5g/lb protein, I will keep doing that myself. If someone else wants to be the guinea pig, be my guest… I’ll stick with what has worked for thousands.[/quote]
The study I posted recommends 1.8 grams…[/quote]

per KILOGRAM. Which is less than 1g/lb.[/quote]
So what are you ranting about, exactly? That’s more than you suggest.[/quote]

No, it’s not.

1.8g/kg is LESS than 1g/lb.

Math is hard.[/quote]
My edit didn’t stick. I re-read your post and agreed.

Tell me where intake stops being beneficial.

Give the op a definitive answer yourself.

Maybe 1000 grams a day or moar!

52

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

Tell me where intake stops being beneficial.[/quote]

This question implies there would even be an answer that would be constant for all people. How would you even arrive at that conclusion if no studies exist on the subject with bodybuilders?

I know many BIG HUGE guys who eat around 400gr or less in protein daily. I saw good results eating close and often over 300gr a day. Based on experience and what I have learned in school I would say that most people likely do not need to go over 400gr of protein unless also using all of the hormones the pros may use.

As many have said, you do NOT have time to waste. It takes years to really get swole so wasting time undershooting the amount of protein you may need based on nothing but hearsay is ridiculous.

Bodybuilding has always been its own lab. They were doing low carb for dieting long before anyone else knew what that was.

[quote]

Give the op a definitive answer yourself.

Maybe 1000 grams a day or moar![/quote]

No, you see, many of us see the value in listening to the experiences of others who have achieved more than we have. You don’t learn everything on line.

53

I’m not a doctor. I’m not a professional bodybuilder. However, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently.

How come the biggest guys that I’ve talked to always answer “pounds of meat” and “a few hundred pounds of protein” when I ask them about how they eat, yet, the smallest/weakest guys tout “ounces of organic food” and “minimalist” type diets (usually using numbers with decimals in them)?

That’s my 1 post for this month.

54

Somebody please tell the OP how much protein he really needs.

It is a ratio.

g:bw

A lot of you are really good criticizing studies floating around but can’t really seem to give an answer. What is the answer?

55

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:
Somebody please tell the OP how much protein he really needs.

It is a ratio.

g:bw

A lot of you are really good criticizing studies floating around but can’t really seem to give an answer. What is the answer?[/quote]

?

This has been answered. There is no specific amount he should absolutely in all cases consume. What most in bodybuilding believe today is based on empirical evidence, testimonies and limited data from studies that may at least represent some4 aspect of what we do.

I do know that most of the big guys I know take in more than 300gr a day. I know that I got big eating like that which for me was a little more than 1gr per pound of body weight.

The rest is based on the results seen in the gym.

What answer are you looking for?

The very fact that you would even think there is some constant never varying answer for ALL cases is a cause for concern.

56

Hi,

I studied biochemistry. I mean, studied it at college, for 5 years. Not just read studies.

The first thing I would say is that the nutrition studies, for most of them, are crap. Most of them are sponsored by companies, and if you read every study, you would end up schizophrenic because for each study there is a counter study.

Every physician or nutritionist will tell a man that he needs to eat at least 0.8 g / kg of body mass if he wants to keep his muscles and maintain the active muscle mass. But that’s for somebody who does not train.

For sports involving anaerobic strength (like football, rugby), the recommanded amounts are 2 to 2,5 g / kg of body mass. It s also recommanded for strength trainers and some bodybuilders will eat more.

The truth is that if you take the chemical reactions involved in anabolism, you will see that theoretically, most of this protein will end up right in the toilets. It will also put a lot of strain on your kidneys.

That’s not really true because your stomach is not a perfect machine so some of the ingested protein will be destroyed or wasted and at the end, those 50 g you ate are probably more like 30 35g.

On my side, I am not a professionnal BBer. I am mainly strength training because I like it and want to be bigger for my sport.

What I saw is that I can do OK with 1 / 1.5 g of protein but I won’t grow a lot. Under 1 g/kg, I feel crappy the days after working out. Between 1.5 / 2g I start to put on muscle. Over 2.5g, I get fastly digestive issues and sometimes kidney fatigue.

What I mean by that is that it s mostly a personnal trial & error thing. If you re ok eating 400 g prot a day and putting muscle on, then go on…

57

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:
Somebody please tell the OP how much protein he really needs.

It is a ratio.

g:bw

A lot of you are really good criticizing studies floating around but can’t really seem to give an answer. What is the answer?[/quote]

Yeah…

What do you reckon as an answer, I weigh 158lb, what would people recommend as my total daily intake, to get hhhuuugggeee, as there seems to be no definitive answer for grams a lb/kg1?

58

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]CargoCapable wrote:

Tell me where intake stops being beneficial.[/quote]

This question implies there would even be an answer that would be constant for all people. How would you even arrive at that conclusion if no studies exist on the subject with bodybuilders?

I know many BIG HUGE guys who eat around 400gr or less in protein daily. I saw good results eating close and often over 300gr a day. Based on experience and what I have learned in school I would say that most people likely do not need to go over 400gr of protein unless also using all of the hormones the pros may use.

As many have said, you do NOT have time to waste. It takes years to really get swole so wasting time undershooting the amount of protein you may need based on nothing but hearsay is ridiculous.

Bodybuilding has always been its own lab. They were doing low carb for dieting long before anyone else knew what that was.

[quote]

Give the op a definitive answer yourself.

Maybe 1000 grams a day or moar![/quote]

No, you see, many of us see the value in listening to the experiences of others who have achieved more than we have. You don’t learn everything on line.[/quote]
Heresay is a scientific study demonstrating protein levels for nitrogen retention and protein synthesis over some dude saying “when I ate 300 grams…”

Ok.

If you eat 600 grams daily you will grow. Or keep in a ratio, 3 grams per pound. Nobody would question this. But, the question posed by the OP is what?

59

some of you must like arguing just to argue.

60

Since anecdotal evidence is no longer smiled upon

"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/22215165

some may find this interesting.

Essentially, low-protein group lost LBM,.

High protein group (3.0g/kg) gained slightly more LBM than mormal protein group (1.8g/kg). "

If someone needs 3500 calories to grow, the calories have to come from somewhere, at a certain point fat intake might be limited by loose stools, carb intake probably shouldn’t be crazy high, so protein intake will have to be higher than what most agencies recommend.

What is ideal, who the fuck knows. There’s evidence above from the study that more was beneficial than low or moderate, in the end eat the damn food and be consistent, don’t stress over the minutia.