I’m just genuinely curious as to how much of an advantage someone that’s consistently at 750 total test has over someone that is a “natural” 750 total t but obviously has their levels fluxuate throughout the day. Is it marginal, or is it significant? Are those improvements visible in just the gym or in other aspects like mood, etc?
I guess would you consider someone who is on TRT but in the natural range as more “enhanced” than someone who is natty high T?
There will be more fluctuation naturally than on TRT, which is why estrogen tends to run a bit higher on TRT. Whether this translates into improvements across the board, mentally and physically is debatable, depending on who we are talking about.
No overtraining syndrome and therefore no suppressed testosterone on TRT.
You will get no definitive answers here, only guesses. There’s also no way to determine how exogenous T will affect other hormones, due to the disruption, suppression of LH and Gonadotropin-releasing hormones.
I don’t mind guesses, I think this stuff is fascinating. But I just wanted to say you are consistently in these threads providing a wealth of information about this stuff, I’ve learned a ton from this place and am still learning more every day as I start my TRT journey, so thank you for that. I’m on week 7 of TRT and have around 750 total test at my dosage - I definitely feel way better physically than even in my early twenties when my T was probably around that level. Bench has shot up too! Only downside that I can forsee right now is trying to balance my iron without putting my hemocrit into the high range (it currently isn’t) and maybe potential hairloss down the line, although it seems like that’s a debatable topic.
Anyway, doc put me on Ferrous Sulfate 325mg (containing 65mg of elemental iron)/day to try that out and see if it improves, but other than that I think I should have done this years ago.
You’re most likely still in the TRT honeymoon phase, the body will try to regulate itself and find equilibrium down the road.
I’ve had my hematocrit at 55 and 57% and was forced to get phlebotomies for over a year until a hematologist put a stop to it, because my blood pressure 110/64 with thick blood and no symptoms.
More harm was being done crashing my ferritin every month. The ranges were topped out at 50%, so being over range isn’t necessarily a bad thing. If it was, wee would be evacuating people at high altitude.
Ferrous Sulfate has most side effects and least effective option. It’s best to just switch to elemental iron.
I think it’s less about the TT/FT consistency and more so the effort required to maintain it. Naturals have to eat right, sleep right, exercise, recover, all that. TRT guys just need to inject.
Guys will say that TRT has an advantage because FT is higher, or it’s higher more consistently, but studies show very little difference when TT/FT are still in the normal range. If a TRT guy has much higher FT then I’d argue that isn’t TRT anymore.
How does the TRT guy maintain a consistent 750 ng/dL? That isn’t realistic.
Are you saying the 750 ng/dL TRT guy is doing one injection once a week and measuring 750 ng/dL at trough? That would be more significant than a guy who injects everyday and measures at 750 ng/dL. Neither will be a huge difference between the natural guy, but the former will be better.
During a cutting phase, does the natural guy stay at 750 ng/dL? That isn’t really realistic. The TRT guy IRL, has more advantage during a cut IMO, than a bulk.
The guy on TRT has an advantage. Work, diet, stress, sleep will all have much more of an impact on the natural individual. The guy on TRT will be able to maintain a consistent levels.
I also notice that even guys on TRT when dieted down tend to have a different look. They look harder and grainier. Probably because their levels stayed high throughout.
Daily cypionate or Nebido injections.
Still not going to stay at 750 ng/dL on the nuts.
Let’s be clear, you’re not going to be Superman. You’ll still have bad days and good ones.
Advantage in what?
I’ve been on TRT since 2002, from age 22 to now 43, turning 44 next month.
I have never experienced anything extraordinary on TRT with T in the normal range, not muscle, endurance or strength gains.
Doses have been 100 mg T cypionate per week (since 2013) or 10 g Androgel or Testim per day (all previous years).
I only tested once with a supraphysiological value, 1500 ng/dl, while on 10 g Androgel (10 mg T).
I’ve said it many times: actual TRT doesn’t make one a bionic man. There’s also no way to “maximize” it. I also believe there is no “optimization”.
Such consistent levels in the normal range provide no difference in function versus fluctuating levels in the normal range.
I have personally observed two friends with adequate mid range natural levels start a TRT protocol. Why? I don’t know. I tried talking them out of it. Some people think TRT is like cycling steroids. It’s not. Anyway, both friends got nothing out of it. No more muscle, no less fat, etc. Both were in pretty good shape to start.
IMO, TRT adds a lot of benefits to those that truly need it. To those that are just looking for an edge, you’re not going to get a lot out of it and why should you?
Are we presenting an argument that being on TRT to maintain 750ng/dL is better than being natural and testing 750ng/dL?
@RT_Nomad I’m not clear on the parameters myself. Both the folks I mentioned prior had 500-600 TT with equally mid range FT. Both markers were increased about 50% and results were still not noticeable. As @mnben87 stated I think that if one were on a severe cut that TRT advantage would start showing more.
To be fair, I recall at least a few members with midrange Free T levels have a lot of issues only to get Free T to the top 25 percentile and it relieves all there issues.
These men are far from typical cases, but their out there.
That’s what TRT should be about, symptoms resolution. If you’re getting a significant medical benefit, it’s warranted.
I have mixed feelings about this, but that was discussed in another topic already. Regardless both individuals I mentioned went from mid range to almost above range at trough. Still not much happened and they asked why my results were different. Well I had secondary hypogonadism and my levels didn’t increase just 50%, they increased 500%. So yeah, I looked radically different after 6 months.