I started going a little lighter and higher reps, but with a hold at full contraction for a second or so on the 1 arm rows, delt raises, etc, the ancillary stuff for pre-exhaustion.
I dunno if my back is anything to brag about but a lot of people have said that they prefer when I’m walking away, so…
I need to adopt this. That’s it - I’m cutting rows from the session!
Something that has helped me is getting to the point of doing highish rep pullups and chins. I like these movements, and will do them almost every gym session.
Depending on how you row you can hit different areas of your back. You can do rows with your elbows “down” or close to your sides to work lats. Or you can get your elbows “up” or away from your body a little to work more mid-back and traps. You can also get your elbows way out and up to do rows that hit more rear delt.
If you’re doing lots of chins or pulldowns to work your lats you can get away with less lat focused rowing. If you’re doing lots of cleans and clean pulls that work your mid-back and traps you can get away with less rowing that targets the mid back and traps. If you’re working your rear delts with delt flying motions you don’t need so many rear delt rows.
I guess you’ve got all the bases covered with pullups, clean motions and rear delt flys and rows are kind of redundant.
I think that’s what I’ve worked out here. That’s good because I was apparently trying to find validation for cutting an exercise from my workout. After I finish the session, I look back and think “Why did I even do rows? They just added fatigue to my lower back and seem like nothing compared to everything else.”
Deadlifts (or some variation thereof)>barbell rows>chest supported rows>pull ups>seated cable rows>rear delt flys>reverse hyper
CT said that with athletes he usually makes them do a lot of pull-ups almost every session.
Barbell rows… ugh I never liked them. More arms and lower back. Low cable rows, machine rows, Meadows rows, properly done DB rows… This is the real deal. Pulling with the elbow, down and in, and damn your lats will work hard.
Dave Tate has praised the pull up / chin up for upper body development. He mentioned he regrets not starting them earlier. I like that there is no set up, and it isn’t all that hard to get 40-50 reps at over 200 lbs for me pretty efficiently. I still row, and my deadlifts are my back staple. I just have a special place in my heart for chins.
Kinda thinking out loud;
You’ve got “closed chain” exercises where you move your body like chins and cleans and “open chain” exercises where your body is still and you wave your arms around like rows and pulldowns.
If you’re doing the athletic, closed chain, big moves and everything is improving, it’s cool. If some part falls behind you can target it with the smaller, more focused open chain exercise. Like if cleans slow down you could hit up some t-bar rows to take the legs out and hit mid back more directly. Or if the barbell was starting to drift away on deadlifts you could do someone arms DB rows to get after your lats so they pull the barbell close to your legs.
I always wondered why rows weren’t the “fifth” main movement of 5/3/1, but there’s nothing stopping you from treating them that way if you want to. I never used the 5/3/1 progression model on them but I hit them hard every week and it was part of getting all-around stronger over time for me. My overall work capacity on pulling motions of all kind has definitely improved dramatically.
From a bouncing perspective, having a brutally powerful upper body pull was perhaps the most expedient way to get behind a person and stop a fight from becoming a fight. Arm-drags with gusto can work like magic if you time them well. A strong pull factors into having a strong clinch position as well, especially if you have good grip too. There’s something to be said for having such a strong physical pull that the person gives up because they can’t unwrap you, let alone hurt you.
I’ll even go on record for advocating sloppy barbell rows with a little more weight than you can bench. Get a little hip into it, you’ll be fine. Probably.
I’ve only done it once in a training scenario, but I had no trouble suplexing my 185 lb friend. That move goes well with clean pulls.
It’s funny how most programs will give detailed percentages for squat, bench, and deadlift but when I comes to pulling movements they just say “do some”.
I do like the idea of 5/3/1ing rows. Sub max, sub max, then all out. I don’t use 5/3/1 for much but that’s worth trying someday.
With all of the strength gains you’ve piled up you should get some mat time in, see what else has become easy to do. I imagine you’d be a real handful at this point.
The best BJJ school in my area has opened up free training to all active LEO’s, no strings attached. Maybe you have something similar nearby. I’m hoping to train with a lot more of your brothers and sisters, giddy as I am to play the part of non-compliant goon.
I think that could be fine as long as you don’t cheat, which is true for any lift I suppose. In reality, I treated rows like a “top set” anyway. If they were easier than a top set, make them harder somehow. Pull, pull, pull.
I know a guy with a BJJ gym but no free training yet. He’s been pretty limited with Covid. I think he charge charges $70/month to go train.
I have enough training experience to know I can’t win a ground fight, but I’m also very difficult to defeat. Luckily I’ve had an uneventful career thus far and stalling equals victory. I don’t have to beat you; I just have to control you until my friends arrive.
I have these things on my wish list but I’ve never committed to making it happen. If I add something to my schedule then something has to go and I don’t have much to give.
It’s a lot to commit to for anyone, which is why I shake my head when my BJJ circle takes to virtue signaling about how every cop should be a blue belt or purple belt, etc. I think it’s great to offer the training, but to expect it is unrealistic.
Should every cop have a 2xBW Squat, 2.5x DL and 1.5x bench? Who wouldn’t want a super team of powerlifting martial artists for police?
I did fine as a bouncer for many shifts long before I ever stepped on the mat. There’s still a lot to be said about being bigger, stronger and ready to go with lots of gas in the tank. And this is the BSL forum, after all.
You’d like my instructor. Great lifter, too.
If you consider your training in 6 (or whatever) week blocks with specific goals, then you can do stuff like ‘less back work’ and see how it works for you in those 6 weeks.
If it goes well, you have some great information that will help you progress in the future. If it doesn’t then you also have great information that will help you progress in the future.
They don’t. Depending on what you do and how you do it. DL’s will hit the lower back, and if you hit the right sumo stance maybe the hammies or glutes. All DL’s hit those things somewhat, but not in particular, it’s an all over CNS killer of a movement more than a particular muscle movement. So are squats.
Cleans done correctly will hit arectors and traps, and upper back to a lesser extent depending on your form.
Rows should crank the lats, and not much else honestly.
It all depends on the goal. Are you Body building or Strength building? Strength building focuses on open chain complex stuff and chasing weaknesses with accessory work - without regard for how big a muscle is. I’m not sure what your goal is here? I can walk in off the street and pull 500 x 5 any day of the week, and I’m an old guy that doesn’t work out enough.
I do something similar to rows most of the time where I find a weight I can do for super high reps, add 20 pounds next week, do more. Sometimes I’ll start a cycle at 15-20, sometimes up to 40. I do this with shrugs, machine rows, db rows, etc. Never met a strong dude with a small back so I train it all the time. Usually 4-6 days a week.
Sounds like you’re in the minority because there aren’t a lot of average Joe’s that pull 500+. I’ve had to work somewhat hard for it and if I stop deadlifting it goes away quickly.
Agreed.
I think people are looking at this backwards(lol).
I think of it like this:
If I pull myself up or pull something towards me vertically(pulldowns), how do I hit do it in a way that I hit my lats vs my upper back?
This would involve developing a level of body awareness, i.e, being aware when my lats or my upper back and mid traps are being utilized more while pulling.
So I play with different grips, different trajectories during the pulling, etc.
Using pulldowns as an example for simplicity, if I lean back and pull the bar towards me with a normal grip width, I hit more upper back and mid traps. If I move my hands wider,they are hit even more. If I pull the bar straight down with a normal grip width and lean back slightly after I initiate the pull, I hit more lats. If I move my hands closer, I hit even more lats.
So, I don’t even classify these as “different” movements(close grip, neutral grip, sternum chins blah blah blah) unless I need to describe them to someone else. To me, they’re all just either chins or pulldowns with an emphasis on back width or thickness.
It’s the same thought process for rows. I don’t think you even need to do any vertical pulling if you know how to row properly(barbells, dumbbells, cables etc)
What’s my point? Lots of different articles with studies with emgs readings and shit keep talking about different pull ups or rows like each of them is some kind of special movement and if you don’t do them you’ll miss out on da gainz.
I don’t do a movement and wonder if the desired muscle was hit while I was doing it. I KNOW it is being hit because I am aware it is being hit while I’m doing it, that’s why I do the movement.
You can’t beat self experimentation and figuring out how your own body responds. This will get rid of any form of cognitive dissonance when you’re doing your own shit while you read the latest articles. Find what works, discard what doesn’t. Be like water and fuck Wing Chun.
I used to be one of those believers in the deadlift being a back movement, but after years of deadlifting, I concluded that deadlifts are mostly a leg-driven exercise. Almost every other involved muscle works as a stabilizer or briefly every rep, while the legs are hit the hardest. I still do it on back day though, leg day is hell on Earth, let alone with barbell deadlifts.