How Many Stalls on LP Before Periodization?

Training
1

Yes, I know that I approached this all backwards.

I started out ~9 months ago coming off of a long layoff, and jumped back into 5/3/1 followed by some of CT’s programs. I SHOULD have started with SS/SL, but I was convinced I wasn’t a beginner/novice and knew better. Oh well.

I decided to pick up SS last month and have been running it consistently. I enjoy it, but I am worried that I will be stalling soon. I am still making progress, and have added weight to all my lifts, but yesterday was the first time I failed on all 3 work sets for squats, and almost missed deadlifts and bench last reps. May have just been a bad day. No worries, I know that is to be expected eventually, but my question is this:

Is there a recommended # of times that you stall before switching to something like TX method, etc? I know that SS has a deload protocol if you get stuck, but I don’t want to just spin wheels constantly deloading/resetting either. Also, is it possible to adjust the periodization on some lifts and not others? My OHP and Cleans are still going up easy, but deadlifts and squats are starting to top out.

Thanks for any advice.

2

Your problem is not the lifts.

Your problem is lack of consistency and majoring in the minors.

And, all your questions are answered in the book. Heck, the wiki site has all your answers. It even tells you when to switch to Texas.

Also, SS/SL is not a one month program. They are very easy programs to follow, yet you are wondering what “might” happen?

lastly, if you are topping out after one month, you started too high.

Good luck

3

[quote]Apothecary wrote:
Yes, I know that I approached this all backwards.

I started out ~9 months ago coming off of a long layoff, and jumped back into 5/3/1 followed by some of CT’s programs. I SHOULD have started with SS/SL, but I was convinced I wasn’t a beginner/novice and knew better. Oh well. [/quote]

I kind of figured that when you posted your squat progress following that thread with CT.

I’ve done the same, so, um, yeah.

As far as your actual question, the SS book and website does explain this pretty well.

But I’d consider taking a look at the Greyskull LP program. You can piece it together from forums, but I’d just read the book. Search: “greyskull lp 2nd edition scribd” and it’s there for reading. I’d recommend buying it if you get value out of it, but yeah, there it is.

The core program is pretty simple, since it started as a derivative of starting strength:

Week 1:
M Bench 5,5,5+; Squat 5,5,5+
W Press 5,5,5+; Deadlift 5+ (one set only)
F Bench 5,5,5+; Squat 5,5,5+

Week 2:
M Press 5,5,5+; Squat 5,5,5+
W Bench 5,5,5+; Deadlift 5+ (one set only)
F Press 5,5,5+; Squat 5,5,5+

Repeat

Press and Bench alternate. Squat twice a week, deadlift once.

So… warmup. Do two sets of 5 at the same weight. Do a third “all out” set getting at least 5 reps.

Progress by adding 2.5lbs to the Press and Bench (not 5), and 5lbs to the Squat and Deadlift (not 10).

Every time you fail to get a full 3 sets of 5 reps, deload that lift only by 10%, and focus on setting rep records on the last set. So if you only managed to get 6 reps on your 5+ set last time at 200lbs, try to get 7 or 8 or more.

So basically you progress a single lift with intensity for as long as you can, then drop down in weight and progress via volume and let it gradually shift back to intensity, and so on.

Deloads here are not a bad thing.

The book has plenty of details of other things you can add to the program to meet your specific needs, but that’s the core template for all of the variants.

4

Personally, I’ve made some modifications. I’d recommend running it as written for awhile before modifying it. You know, like every other program.

What I personally do:

M Bench 5,5,5+; EZ Bar Curls 2x8-12; Squat 5,5,5+
W Limited ROM BTN Press 5,5,5+; Weighted Chins 2x6-8; Touch-n-go Mid-shin Mat Pulls w/Chains 5+
F Bench 5,5,5+; EZ Bar Curls 2x8-12; Squat 5,5,5+

Chinup ladders every day or so… 1 rep, count to 4, 2 reps, count to 8, 3 reps, count to 12… up to however many, then restart at 1. I rest ~4 seconds per rep. Just try to either increase the “height” of the ladder, or the numbers of ladders. Mostly as a means to get in a lot of chinup volume in a short period of time.

I’m only pressing once a week because that’s about all my shoulders can handle, and it’s a standing BTN press to no lower than my ears, and sometimes no lower than the top of my head. Regular pressing causes issues with MY shoulders (is that enough emphasis?) and this is what works for me. I wouldn’t recommend this unless you have specific reason to.

The mat pulls w/chains really do two things for me.

One: my goal is development of strength and size, not necessarily getting better at the competition deadlift, so I’m testing T3hPwnisher’s suggestion that TnG mat pulls are better for that than conventional deadlifts. The idea being primarily that greater time under tension in a stronger part of the ROM leads to more growth. Since I’m stronger at the lockout, the chains help make things harder so that I can get more stimulation out of the same ROM.

Two: psychological. For whatever reason, I feel like I need to do something “complicated/advanced/whatever”, and this fills that void without me compromising the ideals of the basic program.

5

[quote]JFG wrote:
And, all your questions are answered in the book. Heck, the wiki site has all your answers. It even tells you when to switch to Texas. [/quote]

I basically just found a SS template/spreadsheet and plugged in the values. I didn’t read up much on it, since most of what I saw at first glance was how to perform the lifts. I’ll go read the specifics though.

[quote]Also, SS/SL is not a one month program. They are very easy programs to follow, yet you are wondering what “might” happen?

lastly, if you are topping out after one month, you started too high.

[/quote]
Well, yeah, duh haha. I’ve got no trouble following or understanding the program, my concern was the actual numbers that were prescribed for me. I dialed back my 5RMs a bit to account for that, but a few lifts (namely squats) are beginning to stall. This isn’t new for me, as squats have ALWAYS been tough for me as a tall guy, but I was hoping to ride the LP train for at least a few months.

Either way, thanks for the input, I’ll go read the WIKI.

6

[quote]Apothecary wrote:
Yes, I know that I approached this all backwards.

I started out ~9 months ago coming off of a long layoff, and jumped back into 5/3/1 followed by some of CT’s programs. I SHOULD have started with SS/SL, but I was convinced I wasn’t a beginner/novice and knew better. Oh well.

I decided to pick up SS last month and have been running it consistently. I enjoy it, but I am worried that I will be stalling soon. I am still making progress, and have added weight to all my lifts, but yesterday was the first time I failed on all 3 work sets for squats, and almost missed deadlifts and bench last reps. May have just been a bad day. No worries, I know that is to be expected eventually, but my question is this:

Is there a recommended # of times that you stall before switching to something like TX method, etc? I know that SS has a deload protocol if you get stuck, but I don’t want to just spin wheels constantly deloading/resetting either. Also, is it possible to adjust the periodization on some lifts and not others? My OHP and Cleans are still going up easy, but deadlifts and squats are starting to top out.

Thanks for any advice.[/quote]

You are going to stall, that’s when you reset your weights and work back up. Until you stall so badly that a simple reset won’t be adequate. Then you use what is referred to in the book as a back-off. A reset or two is usually a pretty good indicator that its time to move to the next stage of SS, not to the TM. BUY THE BOOK.

7

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Personally, I’ve made some modifications. I’d recommend running it as written for awhile before modifying it. You know, like every other program.

What I personally do:

M Bench 5,5,5+; EZ Bar Curls 2x8-12; Squat 5,5,5+
W Limited ROM BTN Press 5,5,5+; Weighted Chins 2x6-8; Touch-n-go Mid-shin Mat Pulls w/Chains 5+
F Bench 5,5,5+; EZ Bar Curls 2x8-12; Squat 5,5,5+

Chinup ladders every day or so… 1 rep, count to 4, 2 reps, count to 8, 3 reps, count to 12… up to however many, then restart at 1. I rest ~4 seconds per rep. Just try to either increase the “height” of the ladder, or the numbers of ladders. Mostly as a means to get in a lot of chinup volume in a short period of time.

I’m only pressing once a week because that’s about all my shoulders can handle, and it’s a standing BTN press to no lower than my ears, and sometimes no lower than the top of my head. Regular pressing causes issues with MY shoulders (is that enough emphasis?) and this is what works for me. I wouldn’t recommend this unless you have specific reason to.

The mat pulls w/chains really do two things for me.

One: my goal is development of strength and size, not necessarily getting better at the competition deadlift, so I’m testing T3hPwnisher’s suggestion that TnG mat pulls are better for that than conventional deadlifts. The idea being primarily that greater time under tension in a stronger part of the ROM leads to more growth. Since I’m stronger at the lockout, the chains help make things harder so that I can get more stimulation out of the same ROM.

Two: psychological. For whatever reason, I feel like I need to do something “complicated/advanced/whatever”, and this fills that void without me compromising the ideals of the basic program.[/quote]

Thanks for both of those comments LoRez.

I’ve heard of GSLP, and that it’s a recommended stepping stone after a traditional LP program like TX method. I’ll look into it, but I also know that I’m guilty of always chasing the next best thing that incorporates something my current plan is missing haha. So, I’m gonna ride this SS pony til I can’t anymore.

Much like you and your mat pulls with chains, I feel the burning need to have olympic style work in my training. Power snatches, cleans, and C+Js are my favorites, so I try to work them in whenever I can (without bastardizing the program). Some of the templates I saw with TX Method had cleans, push press, and front squat work, which is up my alley, hence my assumption I’d go there next.

I’ve got shoulder issues from an old RC tear, so I know how you feel. Benching bothers it for me, but jerks, snatches, and presses seem to actually keep it loose (like frequent squatting does for my knees), so I’m all about the OH work.

Thanks for all the info; I’ve def got a lot to read and consider about the NEXT steps, once I figure out how long I can progress on my current program.

8

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Apothecary wrote:
Yes, I know that I approached this all backwards.

I started out ~9 months ago coming off of a long layoff, and jumped back into 5/3/1 followed by some of CT’s programs. I SHOULD have started with SS/SL, but I was convinced I wasn’t a beginner/novice and knew better. Oh well.

I decided to pick up SS last month and have been running it consistently. I enjoy it, but I am worried that I will be stalling soon. I am still making progress, and have added weight to all my lifts, but yesterday was the first time I failed on all 3 work sets for squats, and almost missed deadlifts and bench last reps. May have just been a bad day. No worries, I know that is to be expected eventually, but my question is this:

Is there a recommended # of times that you stall before switching to something like TX method, etc? I know that SS has a deload protocol if you get stuck, but I don’t want to just spin wheels constantly deloading/resetting either. Also, is it possible to adjust the periodization on some lifts and not others? My OHP and Cleans are still going up easy, but deadlifts and squats are starting to top out.

Thanks for any advice.[/quote]

You are going to stall, that’s when you reset your weights and work back up. Until you stall so badly that a simple reset won’t be adequate. Then you use what is referred to in the book as a back-off. A reset or two is usually a pretty good indicator that its time to move to the next stage of SS, not to the TM. BUY THE BOOK. [/quote]

Perfect, thank you!

I was simply milking google for the template and some basic information about the program, and did not read deep enough to get into the progression specifics. I will certainly read the wiki about back-offs versus deloads, and yeah, I should probably buy the book too…

9

GSLP isn’t “the next step”, it’s actually a true alternative to SS and SL, and their related progressions between programs. You can pretty much run it for years if you wanted. One of the guys numbers are 590/405/665, a good portion of that was achieved using his own GSLP variant.

So…I think you should read the rationale in the beginning of the book and see if it’s a fit. He has templates that work in olympic lifts. Templates that are more fat-loss oriented. Templates for powerlifting. Templates for hypertrophy.

Basically, from the posts I’ve seen of yours, I think it’s probably a good fit for you. Enough structure to not screw yourself over, enough flexibility to keep things interesting.

10

[quote]LoRez wrote:
GSLP isn’t “the next step”, it’s actually a true alternative to SS and SL, and their related progressions between programs. You can pretty much run it for years if you wanted. One of the guys numbers are 590/405/665, a good portion of that was achieved using his own GSLP variant.

So…I think you should read the rationale in the beginning of the book and see if it’s a fit. He has templates that work in olympic lifts. Templates that are more fat-loss oriented. Templates for powerlifting. Templates for hypertrophy.

Basically, from the posts I’ve seen of yours, I think it’s probably a good fit for you. Enough structure to not screw yourself over, enough flexibility to keep things interesting.[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to suggest that GSLP was a progression. Its an awesome program, with a built in progression to Scheaffer’s Powerbuilding book. Which is pretty good, has a Dogg Crap/Mentzer feel to it, but more appropriate for the natty lifter.

11

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
GSLP isn’t “the next step”, it’s actually a true alternative to SS and SL, and their related progressions between programs. You can pretty much run it for years if you wanted. One of the guys numbers are 590/405/665, a good portion of that was achieved using his own GSLP variant.

So…I think you should read the rationale in the beginning of the book and see if it’s a fit. He has templates that work in olympic lifts. Templates that are more fat-loss oriented. Templates for powerlifting. Templates for hypertrophy.

Basically, from the posts I’ve seen of yours, I think it’s probably a good fit for you. Enough structure to not screw yourself over, enough flexibility to keep things interesting.[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to suggest that GSLP was a progression. Its an awesome program, with a built in progression to Scheaffer’s Powerbuilding book. Which is pretty good, has a Dogg Crap/Mentzer feel to it, but more appropriate for the natty lifter.
[/quote]

Oh, that was in response to Apothecary’s statement about his understanding of GSLP.

[quote]
I’ve heard of GSLP, and that it’s a recommended stepping stone after a traditional LP program like TX method. […] I’ve def got a lot to read and consider about the NEXT steps, once I figure out how long I can progress on my current program.[/quote]

Mostly just opening up some options for him, especially if he’s more interested in going down the “performance” route, “bodybuilding/physique” route, or even just “wants to look good naked” route. For some reason a lot of people seem to think that Starting Strength cares about that stuff, and not just, well, building strength. Nothing wrong with that of course.

12

Wow, thanks both for the great info. I had just (wrongly) assumed that GSLP was a sort of intermediate program from the few times I had heard it mentioned. I like that it can be customized, and that someone smarter than me has already done the legwork to incorporate Oly and performance lifts. I’ll have to look into it for the future, but I really want to limit my program hopping for obvious reasons. So, I’ll definitely ride out this LP for all it’s worth.

As much as I want a respectable big-3 total for my ego, I really have no desire to compete in PLing, nor do I care about trying to get HYOOOGE. I guess I’m in the sports/performance and look good naked camp. Awesome that people have had such success with it too.

13

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
GSLP isn’t “the next step”, it’s actually a true alternative to SS and SL, and their related progressions between programs. You can pretty much run it for years if you wanted. One of the guys numbers are 590/405/665, a good portion of that was achieved using his own GSLP variant.

So…I think you should read the rationale in the beginning of the book and see if it’s a fit. He has templates that work in olympic lifts. Templates that are more fat-loss oriented. Templates for powerlifting. Templates for hypertrophy.

Basically, from the posts I’ve seen of yours, I think it’s probably a good fit for you. Enough structure to not screw yourself over, enough flexibility to keep things interesting.[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to suggest that GSLP was a progression. Its an awesome program, with a built in progression to Scheaffer’s Powerbuilding book. Which is pretty good, has a Dogg Crap/Mentzer feel to it, but more appropriate for the natty lifter.
[/quote]

Oh, that was in response to Apothecary’s statement about his understanding of GSLP.

[quote]
I’ve heard of GSLP, and that it’s a recommended stepping stone after a traditional LP program like TX method. […] I’ve def got a lot to read and consider about the NEXT steps, once I figure out how long I can progress on my current program.[/quote]

Mostly just opening up some options for him, especially if he’s more interested in going down the “performance” route, “bodybuilding/physique” route, or even just “wants to look good naked” route. For some reason a lot of people seem to think that Starting Strength cares about that stuff, and not just, well, building strength. Nothing wrong with that of course.[/quote]

Yeah. There are definitely some advantages to each depending on goals.

Greyskull LP- More carryover to a bodybuilding style program, or 5/3/1 really.

SS/SL- Lots of similarities here but more powerlifting base building.

All three are good programs though.

14

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m only pressing once a week because that’s about all my shoulders can handle, and it’s a standing BTN press to no lower than my ears, and sometimes no lower than the top of my head. Regular pressing causes issues with [quote]MY[/quote] shoulders (is that enough emphasis?) and this is what works for me. I wouldn’t recommend this unless you have specific reason to.

[/quote]

fixed the emphasis

15

[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m only pressing once a week because that’s about all my shoulders can handle, and it’s a standing BTN press to no lower than my ears, and sometimes no lower than the top of my head. Regular pressing causes issues with [quote]MY[/quote] shoulders (is that enough emphasis?) and this is what works for me. I wouldn’t recommend this unless you have specific reason to.

[/quote]

fixed the emphasis[/quote]

Well done.

Now if I can figure out how to dd a hyperlink, a picture, and a youtube video, and I think I’ll about have it covered.

16

[quote]Apothecary wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
And, all your questions are answered in the book. Heck, the wiki site has all your answers. It even tells you when to switch to Texas. [/quote]

I basically just found a SS template/spreadsheet and plugged in the values. I didn’t read up much on it, since most of what I saw at first glance was how to perform the lifts. I’ll go read the specifics though.

[quote]Also, SS/SL is not a one month program. They are very easy programs to follow, yet you are wondering what “might” happen?

lastly, if you are topping out after one month, you started too high.

[/quote]
Well, yeah, duh haha. I’ve got no trouble following or understanding the program, my concern was the actual numbers that were prescribed for me. I dialed back my 5RMs a bit to account for that, but a few lifts (namely squats) are beginning to stall. This isn’t new for me, as squats have ALWAYS been tough for me as a tall guy, but I was hoping to ride the LP train for at least a few months.

Either way, thanks for the input, I’ll go read the WIKI.[/quote]

I’m 6’3". I used SL for 20 weeks to “relearn” the squat (accident, long story). Started with the bar… Squats are tough because they are tough. Your height is only a small input.

And it is obviously new to you. And that is a good thing.

17

[quote]JFG wrote:

[quote]Apothecary wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
And, all your questions are answered in the book. Heck, the wiki site has all your answers. It even tells you when to switch to Texas. [/quote]

I basically just found a SS template/spreadsheet and plugged in the values. I didn’t read up much on it, since most of what I saw at first glance was how to perform the lifts. I’ll go read the specifics though.

[quote]Also, SS/SL is not a one month program. They are very easy programs to follow, yet you are wondering what “might” happen?

lastly, if you are topping out after one month, you started too high.

[/quote]
Well, yeah, duh haha. I’ve got no trouble following or understanding the program, my concern was the actual numbers that were prescribed for me. I dialed back my 5RMs a bit to account for that, but a few lifts (namely squats) are beginning to stall. This isn’t new for me, as squats have ALWAYS been tough for me as a tall guy, but I was hoping to ride the LP train for at least a few months.

Either way, thanks for the input, I’ll go read the WIKI.[/quote]

I’m 6’3". I used SL for 20 weeks to “relearn” the squat (accident, long story). Started with the bar… Squats are tough because they are tough. Your height is only a small input.

And it is obviously new to you. And that is a good thing.

[/quote]

No argument there. I’ve got a love/hate relationship with Squatting since I got my act together and started focusing on them. They are humbling, kick my ass, and I love it. I also rebuilt my squat (oly style high bar/upright with full ATG) and it has been a very humbling experience.

The only reason I mentioned height was that I’ve been told on more than one occasion that my build (tall/lanky) explains my deadlift being so far superior to my squat.