[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
mmmk
i cant really argue with you since you have a 700 pound deadlift
but i just think ramping takes the cake[/quote]
I’m just saying, from personal experience, 5x5 is a good way to allow for steady strength gains and sufficient volume, when coupled with plenty of food, which will in turn add a shitload of size to the parts of your back that are working on the deadlift.
Plus, in my opinion, the added volume, while not extremely high, is high enough to really help you solidify your form in this lift.
But, what is important is doing a movement which stresses the muscle properly, and then using whatever set and rep scheme allows you to progress in that movement. Many different ways to skin a cat.
[quote]SSC wrote:
Isn’t it kind of imperative that you post what your goals are? I mean, size = strength, sure, but if you’re shooting for the highest number you can get at a PL meet, that would drastically change how you should prepare.
I, personally, love deadlifts. However, for actual back development, I think rack pulls are awesome, because they’re not so taxing on the CNS. Also - You can go really freaking heavy. In 10 weeks I went from rack pulling 315 x 10 to 415 x 10. All the same benefits of a deadlift without the useless ROM (as long as you’re hitting your legs properly.)
IMO![/quote]
Rack pulls can be great, but you gotta do them at the right height.
And, this is not a shot at you SSC, but I have seen a lot of guys with good, great, ASTOUNDING sounding rack pulls…
…and they have shit for back development.
I think, for rack pulls to have the SAME effect as deadlifts, you gotta go pretty low - mid shin or so, maybe lower.
Depends on how you’re built too, I guess - if your rack pulls are making your erectors and upper back SORE AS SHIT, then keep piling on the weight and keep putting food on your plate.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Whatever allows you to add a considerable amount of weight to the bar for moderate reps the fastest in the long run (LOL, hope that makes sense).
Some people can get away with using straight sets, others like “ramping”. Give straight sets a try for a few months and see how that works for you. Then try “ramping” for a few months. By that time you should be able to judge which method works better for you.
As far as form, you want your shoulders to be over (actually slightly in front of) the bar at the beginning of the lift (on the floor). Your shoulders should remain higher than your hips, and your hips should be higher than your knees.
Your lower back should remain arched, but some thoracic spinal flexion (upper back rounding) is acceptable on maximal lifts/towards the end of a set.
You should drive into the ground with your legs (called “leg drive”) as you stand up; remember that the muscles of the hips/legs are also a big part of the lift, it’s not an all back exercise. Also, don’t hyperextend your hips at the top of the lift. Just come to a fully standing position and retract your shoulder blades at the top of the lift.
Whether you do “touch and go” or re-set the bar between each rep is up to you.[/quote]
One of the better text descriptions of deads I’ve seen, lol, nice goin Sento
[quote]NewDamage wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
mmmk
i cant really argue with you since you have a 700 pound deadlift
but i just think ramping takes the cake
I’m just saying, from personal experience, 5x5 is a good way to allow for steady strength gains and sufficient volume, when coupled with plenty of food, which will in turn add a shitload of size to the parts of your back that are working on the deadlift.
Plus, in my opinion, the added volume, while not extremely high, is high enough to really help you solidify your form in this lift.
But, what is important is doing a movement which stresses the muscle properly, and then using whatever set and rep scheme allows you to progress in that movement. Many different ways to skin a cat.
[/quote]
for me, personally, i like the low volume, high frequency approach. so like for me, im training everything twice a week. i do 2 exercises for each muscle with only 1 working set to failure for each one.
Keep in mind, I’m somewhat of a noob, but my recent experiences may help out the OP…
The problem with the deadlift is the grip. Starting out it was difficult to do many reps and maintain an overhand grip. Switching to a mixed grip helps (right hand over, left hand under). But you’ll want to switch hands from set to set…which can be a bit uncomfortable.
Don’t think of the deadlift as a squat from the ground. The end point of the squat should be hips at or below knees with back angle above 45 degrees. The starting point of the deadlift should be hips at or above knees with back angle below 45 degrees. Basically you’re going to be flatter starting the deadlift.
This is how I’ve learned:
- Approach the bar. Shins touch the bar at hip to shoulder width, feet straight ahead.
- Grasp the bar just outside the hips, basically your arms will brush your thighs as you lift.
- Your shoulders should be over the bar, or slightly in front.
- Drop your butt down and lift your chest up. You may notice a slight “rocking back” when you drop your butt.
- Keep arms locked through the entire movement. The movement DOES NOT start with you bending your elbows. It starts at the feet and hips.
- Breath in and close your glottis before lifting. This creates intra-abdominal pressure which will keep your spine in a neutral position.
- Push through your heels and drive upward keep the bar as close to your body as you can…like an inch. Lift your head up/back and thrust your hips into the bar…hump the bar.
- Squeeze your glutes at the top but do not rock backward.
- Breath out at the top. Then take another breath for the trip back down.
- Hold your intra-abdominal pressure again on the way down. I like dropping it down 1/2 way like an RDL then bending the knees. Just bending the knees as you go down from the top has a tendancy to rough up your shins.
Now, there are ways to deadlift for strength and ways to deadlift for muscle. For gaining muscle you want to feel the deadlift in the right way. For strength it’s just a matter of getting the weight from point A to point B and you’ll see powerlifters do sumo style squats and other variations to reduce the distance traveled.
Oh, your lower back will be sore as shit for a few days. Also, ALWAYS look ahead, NEVER try to look to your side to check your form or some girl’s ass as you deadlift. Your neck will not like it…
When I first started lifting back in November (yes I’m that much of a noob) 135lb felt heavy, I can now do 5 sets of 5 at 235lb and I’ve only been doing it weekly (or a variation) for the last 8 weeks.
Also, you may find sumo squats to your liking if you want more reps as sumo puts less stress on your low back.
If you want MORE stress on your low back muscles try deadlifting from a deficit (just use smaller plates).
Alan
Feet should be in a natural position, that is not always straight ahead for some people.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
for me, personally, i like the low volume, high frequency approach. so like for me, im training everything twice a week. i do 2 exercises for each muscle with only 1 working set to failure for each one.[/quote]
I’ve actually switched to something similar, recently, for at least most of my movements.
There are a couple of things I still do a few work sets on. Usually pull ups and deads.
Anyways how long have you been training that way?
what type of set and rep scheme(and load) would you guys reccomend for someone who wants to get back into deadlifting after hurting his back a while ago from doing deadlifts? my experience with ramping up to a top set or going super heavy is that my lower back inevitably rounds over and i injury myself:( I was thinking of trying something really light and volume heavy like 10x10 with only 135 lbs? would that be a bad idea or should i do something like 5x5 straight sets?
PS i dont plan to jump back into deadlifing all of a sudden im going to start off by using machines, then progress to rack pulls, steadily drop the distance on those then try deadlifts from the floor…progressive adaption…i just want to know a good rep scheme in mind when i start doing rackpulls then onto deadlifts
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
as far as bodybuilding purposes, since thats where this is posted, i dont think lots of volume or lots of singles is going to get him the size he’s after. [/quote]
You just said volume won’t get a bodybuilder what he wants; last time I checked, bodybuilders apply a high amount of volume in their training. It’s the same for quite a few powerlifters as well. Brian Siders use volumes that would put most of us in the hospital.
Simplest way to approach a deadlift.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
as far as bodybuilding purposes, since thats where this is posted, i dont think lots of volume or lots of singles is going to get him the size he’s after.
You just said volume won’t get a bodybuilder what he wants; last time I checked, bodybuilders apply a high amount of volume in their training. It’s the same for quite a few powerlifters as well. Brian Siders use volumes that would put most of us in the hospital. [/quote]
really? cause i use a very similar style of training to Dorian Yates and DC, minus the stretching and static holds.
i dont think “the last time you checked” was very recent because there was a thread discussing this like 2 weeks ago. consider this getting checked.
[quote]NewDamage wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
for me, personally, i like the low volume, high frequency approach. so like for me, im training everything twice a week. i do 2 exercises for each muscle with only 1 working set to failure for each one.
I’ve actually switched to something similar, recently, for at least most of my movements.
There are a couple of things I still do a few work sets on. Usually pull ups and deads.
Anyways how long have you been training that way?[/quote]
for about 5 months, since thats when my last PM from C_C who introduced me to that style of training was after he noticed my lifting was starting out heavy and dwindling down. for example i used to start my chest sessions benching the 100 pound DBs and by the end of it i was struggling to get 8 reps with 135 on the decline.
my deadlift went from like 405x5 to 455x7 (today), fwiw.
[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
what type of set and rep scheme(and load) would you guys reccomend for someone who wants to get back into deadlifting after hurting his back a while ago from doing deadlifts? my experience with ramping up to a top set or going super heavy is that my lower back inevitably rounds over and i injury myself:( I was thinking of trying something really light and volume heavy like 10x10 with only 135 lbs? would that be a bad idea or should i do something like 5x5 straight sets?
PS i dont plan to jump back into deadlifing all of a sudden im going to start off by using machines, then progress to rack pulls, steadily drop the distance on those then try deadlifts from the floor…progressive adaption…i just want to know a good rep scheme in mind when i start doing rackpulls then onto deadlifts[/quote]
id give you the same advice as anyone else.
go 1 set to failure but you gotta know when youre at failure before you even go for that last rep where you actually cant get it up. it might take some getting used to because you have to go from knowing how to train to failure to knowing exactly when youre gonna hit it.
only time ive ever hurt my back on DLs is when i tried pulling another rep after i struggled to get the last one up. id get it maybe an inch off the floor and just keep trying to pull up but it was just hurtin my back.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
for about 5 months, since thats when my last PM from C_C who introduced me to that style of training was after he noticed my lifting was starting out heavy and dwindling down. for example i used to start my chest sessions benching the 100 pound DBs and by the end of it i was struggling to get 8 reps with 135 on the decline.
my deadlift went from like 405x5 to 455x7 (today), fwiw.[/quote]
What style of deadlifts do you do (sumo, conventional, touch n go, etc) and where do you feel them to most a day or two afterwards?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Whatever allows you to add a considerable amount of weight to the bar for moderate reps the fastest in the long run (LOL, hope that makes sense).
Some people can get away with using straight sets, others like “ramping”. Give straight sets a try for a few months and see how that works for you. Then try “ramping” for a few months. By that time you should be able to judge which method works better for you.
As far as form, you want your shoulders to be over (actually slightly in front of) the bar at the beginning of the lift (on the floor). Your shoulders should remain higher than your hips, and your hips should be higher than your knees.
Your lower back should remain arched, but some thoracic spinal flexion (upper back rounding) is acceptable on maximal lifts/towards the end of a set.
You should drive into the ground with your legs (called “leg drive”) as you stand up; remember that the muscles of the hips/legs are also a big part of the lift, it’s not an all back exercise. Also, don’t hyperextend your hips at the top of the lift. Just come to a fully standing position and retract your shoulder blades at the top of the lift.
Whether you do “touch and go” or re-set the bar between each rep is up to you.[/quote]
Excellent description except I usually cue to get the shoulders behind or just breaking the plane of the bar.
[quote]NewDamage wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
for about 5 months, since thats when my last PM from C_C who introduced me to that style of training was after he noticed my lifting was starting out heavy and dwindling down. for example i used to start my chest sessions benching the 100 pound DBs and by the end of it i was struggling to get 8 reps with 135 on the decline.
my deadlift went from like 405x5 to 455x7 (today), fwiw.
What style of deadlifts do you do (sumo, conventional, touch n go, etc) and where do you feel them to most a day or two afterwards?[/quote]
sumo + touch and go
i would say traps and spinal erectors and quads now that ive switched from Conv to Sumo. its hard to be certain though as i incorporate them with a full back workout. but anytime i stop deadlifting for a little while i always get nice trap DOMS once i start again.
i can already feel the DOMS in my back setting in from my workout this evening.
i should also add that i now use straps, although for a while i didnt. my best strapless lift was 425x7 (overhand) although sometimes i think and say “no way did i do that” and rationalize it down to like 415x7
edit: woke up today with massive upper back DOMS. yum
Live, I have both of Dorian’s books and his DVD.
I know how he trains. Yeah, Dante and Dorian trained with low volume; many have trained and still train with a high volume to the current day.
[quote]conorh wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Whatever allows you to add a considerable amount of weight to the bar for moderate reps the fastest in the long run (LOL, hope that makes sense).
Some people can get away with using straight sets, others like “ramping”. Give straight sets a try for a few months and see how that works for you. Then try “ramping” for a few months. By that time you should be able to judge which method works better for you.
As far as form, you want your shoulders to be over (actually slightly in front of) the bar at the beginning of the lift (on the floor). Your shoulders should remain higher than your hips, and your hips should be higher than your knees.
Your lower back should remain arched, but some thoracic spinal flexion (upper back rounding) is acceptable on maximal lifts/towards the end of a set.
You should drive into the ground with your legs (called “leg drive”) as you stand up; remember that the muscles of the hips/legs are also a big part of the lift, it’s not an all back exercise. Also, don’t hyperextend your hips at the top of the lift. Just come to a fully standing position and retract your shoulder blades at the top of the lift.
Whether you do “touch and go” or re-set the bar between each rep is up to you.
Excellent description except I usually cue to get the shoulders behind or just breaking the plane of the bar.
[/quote]
Yeah, that’s another good cue to use.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Live, I have both of Dorian’s books and his DVD.
I know how he trains. Yeah, Dante and Dorian trained with low volume; many have trained and still train with a high volume to the current day. [/quote]
so theres some bodybuilders who use high volume? whats your point? i think more people are going to benefit from low volume + high intensity + more frequency than doing 10x10 once a week. i gotta admit, i feel like youre just trying to antagonize here without anything to contribute whatsoever to this thread. so if thats the case, just dont post in here.