How Long to Stay at Weight After Bulk?

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

For real…

why else would this forum even exist?

Because most of us are not Ronnie Coleman(s)![/quote]

LOL. Yes, bluecollartr8n is big and lean, and hell, it might even have been easy for him to lean out. But for the overwhelming majority of people who approach 20% bodyfat, it’s nigh impossible to get back to 10% and keep most of the gains they made getting to that point. So yea, getting lean is the hard part. And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.

And this is coming from someone who was 18% at 220 but really has to watch what he eats now to stay 13-15% at 205, because that 220 was pointless. It did nothing for me getting that fat, and I was only a few pounds stronger on every lift.

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.
[/quote]

wtf

who are you to say what BF levels any of the guys here posting have had over the last 15-20 years for fucks sake

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
I guarantee that you’d being uncomfortable posting a shirtless picture today, which really sets off my BS alarm.
[/quote]

Me taken 10 Feb 2013 255lbs.

This is me at probably the “fattest” I plan to get right now.

[/quote]

Resolution on shirted AVI picture… crystal clear. Resolution on shirtless “fat” picture… taken during earthquake.[/quote]

Wow

Clear enough for you?

I have more if you are still looking for things to complain about.[/quote]
he’d weigh 220-240 if he got near 10%. Clearly yall are just haters

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

For real…

why else would this forum even exist?

Because most of us are not Ronnie Coleman(s)![/quote]

LOL. Yes, bluecollartr8n is big and lean, and hell, it might even have been easy for him to lean out. But for the overwhelming majority of people who approach 20% bodyfat, it’s nigh impossible to get back to 10% and keep most of the gains they made getting to that point. So yea, getting lean is the hard part. And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.

And this is coming from someone who was 18% at 220 but really has to watch what he eats now to stay 13-15% at 205, because that 220 was pointless. It did nothing for me getting that fat, and I was only a few pounds stronger on every lift.[/quote]

Listen, I was not saying getting lean is easy. All I supported was the notion that gaining significant amounts of muscle is harder than getting lean. Why else can it take naturals literally years (5+) to put it on? It can take MONTHS to get lean. But literally YEARS to put on significant (above average) muscle mass. Lean being in the 12-15% bodyfat range by the way… I was never talking about being ‘shredded’ or contest lean.

I was also not advocating going beyond 20% bodyfat. But hey, glad I could make you laugh.

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Let’s leave the petty shit aside for a moment, ok?

The original post pertained to the idea of set-point theory. I think X believes that we should attempt to increase set-points (or better settling points for those who know a bit) by keeping a certain higher bw before entering any cutting phase, in order that the body doesn’t cannibalize the hard-earned muscles.

I have three criticisms regarding X’s position:

(1) It seems that his case is built primarily on his personal experience (n=1). Weak evidence.

(2) Most of his evidence can be explained by simpler factors than the set-point theory. See his “missing-a-meal-losing-5lbs” example.

(3) From what I understand, the set point idea “basically says that the body will attempt to defend some body weight (or body fat) level (or perhaps range) by adjusting things such as metabolic rate, activity, hunger, etc. in response to changes in weight or fat.” In other words, the body might “fight” against reducing body FAT. Nowhere does it say that the body cannibalizes muscles to maintain/achieve some set point as X argues. It seems that he came up with it.

My conclusion: it seems that if we believe in set point theory (or better settling point theory), then we should minimize bf fat increases whenever possible because it would make the cutting phase THAT much harder.[/quote]

Since everybody ignored my amazing post, I will quote myself. ha

I think it is more on topic than most posts. Anybody care to respond to my points?

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

For real…

why else would this forum even exist?

Because most of us are not Ronnie Coleman(s)![/quote]

LOL. Yes, bluecollartr8n is big and lean, and hell, it might even have been easy for him to lean out. But for the overwhelming majority of people who approach 20% bodyfat, it’s nigh impossible to get back to 10% and keep most of the gains they made getting to that point. So yea, getting lean is the hard part. And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.

And this is coming from someone who was 18% at 220 but really has to watch what he eats now to stay 13-15% at 205, because that 220 was pointless. It did nothing for me getting that fat, and I was only a few pounds stronger on every lift.[/quote]

Listen, I was not saying getting lean is easy. All I supported was the notion that gaining significant amounts of muscle is harder than getting lean. Why else can it take naturals literally years (5+) to put it on? It can take MONTHS to get lean. But literally YEARS to put on significant (above average) muscle mass. Lean being in the 12-15% bodyfat range by the way… I was never talking about being ‘shredded’ or contest lean.

I was also not advocating going beyond 20% bodyfat. But hey, glad I could make you laugh.
[/quote]
12-15 percent- i doubt most people would consider that lean

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

For real…

why else would this forum even exist?

Because most of us are not Ronnie Coleman(s)![/quote]

LOL. Yes, bluecollartr8n is big and lean, and hell, it might even have been easy for him to lean out. But for the overwhelming majority of people who approach 20% bodyfat, it’s nigh impossible to get back to 10% and keep most of the gains they made getting to that point. So yea, getting lean is the hard part. And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.

And this is coming from someone who was 18% at 220 but really has to watch what he eats now to stay 13-15% at 205, because that 220 was pointless. It did nothing for me getting that fat, and I was only a few pounds stronger on every lift.[/quote]

lol? your first paragraph - its so hard to cut without losing most of your muscle… second one, i went from 18 to 13 and lost mainly fat? so which one is it?

i don’t get it…

i think getting contest lean is where you’d have to be really careful, but going from 20% to 13-15%, pretending you’re going to lose “mostly muscle” is complete bullshit

Well I made it to page 7 before skipping the rest of this bullshit.

As far as set points go, id say I was a ‘big guy’ for over a year before I leaned down and maybe it helped, maybe it didn’t I guess we’ll never know. I know that i dont particularly want to get to that level of bf again though because i looked and felt fat. Im currently on a ‘bulk’ and since september I gained 20lbs and can still see my abs, of course some of this was fat/water/glycogen but i believe a fair portion of this has been lbm due to the benefits of being actually LEAN for the first time in my life. And when/if my abs start to fade to the point that I can’t see them I will address the issue.

Like I said, maybe it helped, maybe it didnt but the truth is we’ll never know, and that’s the beauty of bodybuilding, we are continually learning and re-learning as our bodies adapt to the environment we place them in.

These forums would be a much more attractive place if people would let others have their opinions and just get on with it and not respond to every asinine remark, seriously, what can this possibly achieve?
*this isn’t a defence of Professor X

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]
have you ever gone through a full bodybuilding prep?[/quote]

I will be 50 this summer.
I did a couple of tested events in the early nineties. Not even enough people then to have weight classes…over or under 175. I was one of three over(178-184) in both shows and the only one with any wheels at all. 2010 was the last time I ‘leaned out’ there is a video in my HUB at 195. The lighting sucks and my posing knowledge is no better, but it represents well enough. That was in my 47th year, I looked like that at 210 in my mid thirties through my early forties. How far from Master Natty stage ready would you estimate I am, if I had any decent chest development I mean?

FTR- I’m 5’10" and started at 160lbs [all abs in]
the heaviest I’ve ever been was 235-240 [no abs in]

[quote]lemony2j wrote:
Well I made it to page 7 before skipping the rest of this bullshit.

As far as set points go, id say I was a ‘big guy’ for over a year before I leaned down and maybe it helped, maybe it didn’t I guess we’ll never know. I know that i dont particularly want to get to that level of bf again though because i looked and felt fat. Im currently on a ‘bulk’ and since september I gained 20lbs and can still see my abs, of course some of this was fat/water/glycogen but i believe a fair portion of this has been lbm due to the benefits of being actually LEAN for the first time in my life. And when/if my abs start to fade to the point that I can’t see them I will address the issue.

Like I said, maybe it helped, maybe it didnt but the truth is we’ll never know, and that’s the beauty of bodybuilding, we are continually learning and re-learning as our bodies adapt to the environment we place them in.

These forums would be a much more attractive place if people would let others have their opinions and just get on with it and not respond to every asinine remark, seriously, what can this possibly achieve?
*this isn’t a defence of Professor X[/quote]

I have ran a lot of different strategies to find the “OPTIMAL” way to do things. I know everyone is different but I feel like contributing. When I get around 15% bodyfat, my hunger slows, motivation dies, intensity isn’t there and I don’t feel like efficiency in gaining LBM is being achieved. I have dieted down from a higher bodyfat % and dieted down from a lower body fat % coming off of a so called “BULK,” or gaining phase as I like to call it (naturally). Of course I had to diet longer being heavier, but needless to say I got to the same weight.

THE RESULTS. I gained muscle doing it both ways no doubt, but being leaner had me achieve higher intensity, more focus and an easy cut. I believe I made close to the same GAINZ pertaining to muscle doing it both ways, but better results leaning towards the controlled GAINING PHASE aka LeaN Gaining phase!

My point is why would I:
1.) Spend more money on food to get “Bigger/FAT”
2.) Put my body in a more unhealthier state, were it’s not working as Optimally.
3.) Looking and feeling only BIG in a T shirt.
4.) Not practicing good traits to carry throughout life, self Discipline, Learning experiences and self - control.
5.) Not feeling well, being lethargic and have less energy.

REMEMBER:
Your body can only gain muscle at a certain rate “NATURALLY,” I can’t speak for the enhanced because that’s not the path I travel.

A good quote I heard before states this perfectly " I don’t care how much Sunlight you give a plant (FOOD, because plants use to convert it’s energy) or how much water or even how many drugs (Like miracle grow instead of saying DRUGS) The plant can only GROW at a certain rate that is OPTIMAL. It cannot exceed that rate.

OF course we aren’t plants but it was something to think about to put it into perspective. TO each their own, I am spitting my experiences. DO whatever you want to do.

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

For real…

why else would this forum even exist?

Because most of us are not Ronnie Coleman(s)![/quote]

LOL. Yes, bluecollartr8n is big and lean, and hell, it might even have been easy for him to lean out. But for the overwhelming majority of people who approach 20% bodyfat, it’s nigh impossible to get back to 10% and keep most of the gains they made getting to that point. So yea, getting lean is the hard part. And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.

And this is coming from someone who was 18% at 220 but really has to watch what he eats now to stay 13-15% at 205, because that 220 was pointless. It did nothing for me getting that fat, and I was only a few pounds stronger on every lift.[/quote]

Listen, I was not saying getting lean is easy. All I supported was the notion that gaining significant amounts of muscle is harder than getting lean. Why else can it take naturals literally years (5+) to put it on? It can take MONTHS to get lean. But literally YEARS to put on significant (above average) muscle mass. Lean being in the 12-15% bodyfat range by the way… I was never talking about being ‘shredded’ or contest lean.

I was also not advocating going beyond 20% bodyfat. But hey, glad I could make you laugh.
[/quote]

You were just the last one in the train, bud. And I’m not even talking about contest lean…I’m talking 10%. That shit isn’t easy once you’re 15-20% BF. So I think it’s pretty reasonable to say getting lean is at least equally as hard as putting on muscle, and probably harder for guys who get too fat during a bulk. Again, speaking from my own experience, it was easy as shit to gain strength and scale weight when I was eating whatever I wanted, but I was barely 200 pounds after 8 weeks of dieting and my strength dropped through the floor. And what did that get me? 13% bodyfat…whoopdeefuckingdoo.

This is all about people who’ve never been lean overestimating how easy it will be for them to “someday” get leaner, and moreover how much muscle/strength/scale weight they’ll retain.

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.
[/quote]

wtf

who are you to say what BF levels any of the guys here posting have had over the last 15-20 years for fucks sake

[/quote]

A person with eyes and extensive experience measuring bodyfat with something other than a handheld Omron. It ain’t that hard to guess, no avi.

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

LOL. Yes, bluecollartr8n is big and lean, and hell, it might even have been easy for him to lean out. But for the overwhelming majority of people who approach 20% bodyfat, it’s nigh impossible to get back to 10% and keep most of the gains they made getting to that point. So yea, getting lean is the hard part. And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.

And this is coming from someone who was 18% at 220 but really has to watch what he eats now to stay 13-15% at 205, because that 220 was pointless. It did nothing for me getting that fat, and I was only a few pounds stronger on every lift.[/quote]

lol? your first paragraph - its so hard to cut without losing most of your muscle… second one, i went from 18 to 13 and lost mainly fat? so which one is it?

i don’t get it…

i think getting contest lean is where you’d have to be really careful, but going from 20% to 13-15%, pretending you’re going to lose “mostly muscle” is complete bullshit

[/quote]

Dude, 13-15% is still fat. I haven’t even come close to getting lean, and if I did I’d weigh less than 200 pounds. I stopped dieting at 13% because my strength started to drop like a rock after 8 weeks. See where I’m going with that? To get lean (10%, a figure I mentioned in the post you didn’t get), my strength and size would be ______…now you finish that thought and see if you understand what I was saying.

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

It was a question geared at starting a discussion, because I respect BlueCollar’s opinion from his years of experience. I think it’s hilarious it turned into a shitstorm via TNation’s childish ways.

For me, stepping on stage at 6% bodyfat will probably be the most difficult thing I’ve ever done within the realm of training and dieting. Putting on muscle is not HARD if you’re disciplined, it’s just SLOW. Does not take the mental fortitude of dealing with constant hunger, trying to maintain intensity in a depleted state, dealing emotionally with seeing yourself look like a pancake in the mirror, headaches when you drop cals, mental fogginess, etc.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
Putting on muscle is not HARD if you’re disciplined, it’s just SLOW. [/quote]

100% agreed

IMO the 2 hardest things about bbing are

  1. Adding muscles without adding unecessary fat

  2. Dieting down and keeping all those “hard earned (read slowly earned)” muscles

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
And it’s goddamned hilarious when guys who’ve never been below a true 15% start talking about how easy it is to get lean.
[/quote]

wtf

who are you to say what BF levels any of the guys here posting have had over the last 15-20 years for fucks sake

[/quote]

A person with eyes and extensive experience measuring bodyfat with something other than a handheld Omron. It ain’t that hard to guess, no avi.
[/quote]

so you have met multiple posters in this thread and personally measured their BF levels regularly throughout their lives?

oh ok then - that’s what you are implying with these dumb posts.

how do you know if steely d or prof x or whoever have never been under 15% BF before in their whole lives?

oh thats right you dont you’re talking complete shit.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

For me, stepping on stage at 6% bodyfat will probably be the most difficult thing I’ve ever done within the realm of training and dieting. Putting on muscle is not HARD if you’re disciplined, it’s just SLOW. Does not take the mental fortitude of dealing with constant hunger, trying to maintain intensity in a depleted state, dealing emotionally with seeing yourself look like a pancake in the mirror, headaches when you drop cals, mental fogginess, etc. [/quote]

That’s a good point. I personally don’t think time is a great metric for determining which one is more difficult, either.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]fr0gger666 wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]

What is the hard part? [/quote]

gaining muscle? is this a serious question?
[/quote]

It was a question geared at starting a discussion, because I respect BlueCollar’s opinion from his years of experience. I think it’s hilarious it turned into a shitstorm via TNation’s childish ways.

For me, stepping on stage at 6% bodyfat will probably be the most difficult thing I’ve ever done within the realm of training and dieting. Putting on muscle is not HARD if you’re disciplined, it’s just SLOW. Does not take the mental fortitude of dealing with constant hunger, trying to maintain intensity in a depleted state, dealing emotionally with seeing yourself look like a pancake in the mirror, headaches when you drop cals, mental fogginess, etc. [/quote]

Been there many of times and agree completely. Keep at it man, when you think your lean “keep pushing, and then push some more.”

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Many of you guys act like getting lean is the hard part…?[/quote]
have you ever gone through a full bodybuilding prep?[/quote]

I will be 50 this summer.
I did a couple of tested events in the early nineties. Not even enough people then to have weight classes…over or under 175. I was one of three over(178-184) in both shows and the only one with any wheels at all. 2010 was the last time I ‘leaned out’ there is a video in my HUB at 195. The lighting sucks and my posing knowledge is no better, but it represents well enough. That was in my 47th year, I looked like that at 210 in my mid thirties through my early forties. How far from Master Natty stage ready would you estimate I am, if I had any decent chest development I mean?

FTR- I’m 5’10" and started at 160lbs [all abs in]
the heaviest I’ve ever been was 235-240 [no abs in]
[/quote]
kudos on your accomplishments and what seems to have been a long successful lifting career- as far as being ready for a masters natty show- your guess would be just as good as mine—the reason for my comment was because i just did a show recently and leaning out for me was hard as fuck–much harder then my bulking phases—do you think you have perhaps forgotten what it feels like to suffer through a hard prep? i remember hearing an interview with Chris aceto where he stated older bodybuilders who make a come back tend to forget the suffering involved in a hard prep.

[quote]jskrabac wrote:
It was a question geared at starting a discussion, because I respect BlueCollar’s opinion from his years of experience.

For me, stepping on stage at 6% bodyfat will probably be the most difficult thing I’ve ever done within the realm of training and dieting. Putting on muscle is not HARD if you’re disciplined, it’s just SLOW. Does not take the mental fortitude of dealing with constant hunger, trying to maintain intensity in a depleted state, dealing emotionally with seeing yourself look like a pancake in the mirror, headaches when you drop cals, mental fogginess, etc. [/quote]

I suppose I see it differently.
The only potentail limit on my ability to get lean is my self-discipline/mental fortitude. Gathering LBM has both a ceiling and a ‘window of opportunity’. At 50, I can get as lean as I desire, I suspect my LBM gaining days are in the rear view mirror. Most serious restricted diets last 12-16 weeks. IMO…it takes a decade to assemble a stage-ready body; assuming I error x2 and it only takes 5 years; that’s is 260 weeks. If worst case is a 16 week period of restriction, that’s less than 7% of the time required to assemble the mass. If a lifter can’t ‘suck it up’ for less then 10% of time in…just say’n.