How Long to Reach a 315 Bench?

[system]

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]buzza wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i never reached a 315 bench in all the years i competed in bodybuilding. strength wasn’t a concern of mine. i would say i never went above 275. i switched over to powerlifting about 6 years ago and was benching 315 within 6 months. [/quote]

MM,you are one of the stronger mofos I know,could you tall us if your chest has become bigger since you started PL at such high level?
thanx[/quote]

i still do a lot of hypertrophy training and that is what i would attribute my size to. You can get stronger without getting bigger and you can get bigger without lifting heavy. that’s a fact. now there is something to be said for having a bigger muscle to support heavier weights. strength is a function of neural efficiency…being able to fire more motor units. this happens through training in a low rep range and learning to strain under heavy weight.

this type of training won’t produce a huge amount of muscle mass. BUT at some point more mass will be needed to get to a certain strength level. It doesn’t go the other way though. You don’t HAVE to get to a certain strength level to gain more mass. Muscle mass is all about TUT…at least that’s how it has worked for me all these years. [/quote]

if your doing the same amount of weight in whatever exercise after a years time. You will not be any bigger. You need to get stronger in order to get bigger. that is one undisputed fact. yes, you can get stronger without getting bigger. If you do low reps, under 5, that won’t produce much growth. TUT is to low for that to occur. but, you still have to get stronger in the correct rep range to get bigger. thats a fact.[/quote]

i would agree with you if we are only talking about doing the same routine with the same exercises with the same weight for the same reps. getting bigger is about hitting the muscles from different angles with many different exercises. you want to keep the body from adapting. there are these things called complexes, circuits, rest/pause, drop sets, giant sets, decending sets, etc… the list goes on. it’s all about maintaining stress on the muscle for the most time possible.

Of course if you are doing a set of 10 with 225 on bench press week in and week out your body will quickly adapt to that and stop growing.
[/quote]

There are only so many basic compound exercises for each muscle. Even if you switch exercises all the time, you still have to get stronger in those exercises. Say you change up the tempo, which im doing now, by slowing down the movement, that will hit the muscle differently. but, even doing that, you still have to make progress in weight in order to keep getting bigger. [/quote]

let’s follow your logic for a moment then. if you are right, every huge bodybuilder out there should also be elite level powerlifters as well. if muscle size is in direct proportion to muscular strength then all the extremely huge bodybuilders should all be benching well over 500lbs, squatting 800 or more lbs…same for deadlift, since to coninue getting huge you HAVE to get stronger. [/quote]

remember, most pros are just trying to carve up what they already have. most aren’t trying to get bigger. they try and bring up parts they feel need more work. but overall they aren’t trying to get bigger.

[/quote]

Muscles do not “carve up.” Muscles only get bigger or get smaller.

Trying to “bring up weak points” means that they are in fact seeking hypertrophy in these weak points, which means that they would have to be getting stronger, according to your logic.

If we continue to follow your logic, then by having an overwhelmingly larger amount of muscle mass, pro bodybuilders must be overwhelmingly stronger then elite powerlifters.

This is not true. Yes, they are strong, but a 405 bench is not elite for a SHW powerlifter.

Thus, your logic is disproven and false.[/quote]

1-Listen, bodybuilders are not as strong as powerlifters.

2- i googled

3- I guarantee you this, every pro bodybuilder is going to be stronger now, than he was 50lbs ago.

4- If your a 200lb guy, think back to when you were 160lbs, are you stronger now?

5- Ok, the only exception i can see, is say someone always trained with fast paced and explosive reps, then they started getting injured so they cut back on the weight, and focused more on form and slow controlled reps. that will lower the weight they are lifting. but, if they continue to train in that manner, to make further gains, they will have to get stronger while doing the slower reps. Im not talking huge increases in strength, but over the course of months, they have to make strength gains.[/quote]

1- I know bodybuilders are not stronger then powerlifters (assuming both are elite). I made that point.

2- Glad you based your whole philosophy on a google search.

3- I’d hope so.

4- Yes, very much so. I’m also not a bodybuilder.

5- So now you say there is an exception? You seemed to be very sure that there were none a few posts ago.

You have made no relevant arguments, see my last post.[/quote]

There is no exception. Bad wording on my part. I simply meant, by changing the tempo of the rep, you won’t be able to lift as much. But that will be your starting point. from then on, in order for you to make gains in size, you have to get stronger.

[system]

[quote]Matthaeus wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Matthaeus wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Anyone who says they benched 315 in under a year, is lying to you. Ok, if thats the case, you should be benching over 500lbs by now, RIGHTTTTT?? I suspect not. Why is it guys who say such thing, are most likely still only benching 315lbs. Why is that. They haven’t improved since then. lol. Its quite obvious it took them a hell of alot longer than a year or 2 to bench that. just use common sense. [/quote]

Some people make adaption in terms of strength gains very quickly, while others take longer. Similarly with hypertrophy gains. I didn’t start training until I was in my early 20’s, but had taught martial arts, ran track, and played hockey up til then, so maybe my body was more neurologically efficient than I realized.

The point is that while you can’t compare two different people’s physiology, your assumption that such strength gains will continue at such a rate indefinitely shows your complete lack of any real understanding of physiology, or even bodybuilding.

Besides the obvious slowing of ‘steps’ in gains, the reason so many more intermediate or advanced BODYBUILDING trainees stop chasing strength gains is because their goal is hypertrophy, which is not always induced by moving a wight from point A to point B.

I shall now go back to ignoring whatever expert advice RV shells out, but continue to answer, and discuss HONESTLY (like I always have on here) any questions or matters other people have

S[/quote]

You seem to be forgetting bodybuilding rule #1, PROGRESSION. Heres a fact for ya. you will not get bigger if your not getting stronger. yes, your gains slow down, i never said they didn’t. But you still have to get stronger in order to get bigger. My point was, if you got to 315 in only a year, you should be benching a hell of alot more than that now. Or are you saying your progress slows down that much after only 1 years time?

Listen, just cause you know how to starve yourself in order to compete in speedos on stage for some plastic trophy, doesn’t mean you know any more than anyone else. especially me. [/quote]

ahahhaha

1. your muscles know not the amount (read: the number) of weight used. Your muscles repond to stimulation. Lifting more weight than previously done is simply ONE way to create a new stimulus.

2. You are fat.

3. Stu has already discussed why raw strength is not his focus at this point in his career. Learn to read plain english.

4. You are covered by a thick layer of blubber.

5. You have a bare minimal understanding of physiology, at best.

6. Your accomplishments (lol) are diminished because you are a one trick pony. See 2 and 4. [/quote]

lmao simply brilliant.[/quote]

Anyone who looks at my pic and sees fat and not someone whos jacked to the gills, is disturbed and a hater and needs some mental help.[/quote]

Nobody here is envious of your physique no matter how amazing you think it is. You might see yourself a certain way but the overwhelming majority of people on this site who have seen your pictures find you both fat and unimpressive by bodybuilding standards including actual competitive bodybuilders.

I’m glad your happy and confident with the way you look but you really need to come to terms with that fact that most everyone here finds you fat and not just by competitive bodybuilding standards but by regular standards. Even the guys here who’s goals are to get as big as possible don’t want to look like you, because to the rest of us you just don’t look good plain and simple no matter how much you weigh or what measurements you claim.

If your that desperate for everyone’s approval and want us all to envy you and idolize your physique. Then you can either post actual pics of you hitting the mandatory poses or make a video of you doing them.

Or you can just accept the fact that no one here is impressed and stop bragging about how “JACKED TO THE GILLS” you are lol. Because if people here actually thought you were they would be giving you props and you wouldn’t constantly need to brag about it every thread you post in.

[/quote]

If i never said anything that upset anyone, I guarantee you, nobody would be saying I’m fat. where on my pic do you see fat? Anyways, if people don’t like you, obviously they aren’t going to be complimenatary towards you, thats human nature. I know guys that are only 180lbs that have a bigger gut than i do. and im 285-290lbs.

[system]

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
My muscles are much larger now than they were when I was at my ‘strongest’ (and I weighed considerably less then as well). In fact, I actually doubt if I could bench now what I could 5 years ago. Not because I’ve lost any muscle size, but because my body doesn’t have such strength demands regularly placed on it - which I stopped doing as my M.O. when I realized that I wasn’t getting any closer to my actual goal, which was hypertrophy.

Similarly, you will hear about various IFBB Pros being surprisingly weak when seen in public gyms. No I’m not talking about when they’re a few weeks out from a contest, but even in the offseason. The reason is that there are approaches to stimulate muscle growth that do not focus solely on improving strength, and in undertaking such approaches, there may not only be more growth benefit to the bodybuilder, but less risk in terms of injury potential.

S[/quote]

I know that this thread has now turned into a trainwreck, but I’m hoping I might get a response nevertheless. Stu, I found this post to be really interesting.

I’ve been on TNation for a bit more than a year trying to build an understanding of bodybuilding from what you guys have to teach. A lot of the lessons are straightforward aspects of weightlifting and nutrition, some of which are universally agreed upon (e.g. progressive overload) and some of which are not (e.g. carb intake).

The above-quoted post points to something that I feel like I’ve read a lot but haven’t read a lot about (i.e. I’ve seen the idea many times, but have not seen it explained). Granted, I understand that bodybuilding is different from powerlifting, but I don’t feel like there’s been a big discussion about the ways in which it is different philosophically. It often feels like on some level we’re just progressively overloading more exercises than a powerlifter’s bench-squat-deadlift combo.

So Stu (or whomever), when you “realized that I wasn’t getting any closer to my actual goal, which was hypertrophy,” what did you specifically change? Was it just a matter of rep ranges? # of exercises selected? Or was it something more fundamental than that? I feel like it’s not a concept that I fully understand, and if anyone wants to chime in, that would be great.
[/quote]

I tried reaching out to him with a token olive branch, but some people are just haters. thats fine with me.

[system]

[quote]buzza wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
So Stu (or whomever), when you “realized that I wasn’t getting any closer to my actual goal, which was hypertrophy,” what did you specifically change? Was it just a matter of rep ranges? # of exercises selected? Or was it something more fundamental than that? I feel like it’s not a concept that I fully understand, and if anyone wants to chime in, that would be great.
[/quote]

well,of course i’m not Stu.
two years ago I was using 210lb for reverse pulldownz,

december 2009,see pic

then I progressed in strnght and I was using 265lb for my working set at reverse pulldownz,machine stacks was maxed out.
now i’m using no more than 176lb,my back is bigger.
I’m using lighter loads because i’m doing pullovers first than rows,pre-exaust=more stimulus.

I was using 290lb for my bb rows working set,now just 65lb dbs (for rows layin on a incline bench).

full rom,low eccentrics, better form and the abused muscle/mind connection that -for me- it’s just ; full rom,good form,right load.

just my thoughts[/quote]

That dude in the green seems to be checking you out, lol

[The_Mighty_Stu]

^BUZZA hits on good points. Also, BONEZ’ re-emphasizing that muscles do NOT know how much weight (#-wise) that they are lifting is a huge point that everyone who gets caught up chasing #s or equating strength=growth as the only law of hypertrophy seems to forget. Except for guys like Yates, who we can all agree had one in a million genetics, who use strength increases as the only barometer, most of the competitors I know and speak with don’t train in the same way as when they started.

They all come to that moment, whether due to injury, frustration, research, or just by accident when they realize that ‘progressive overload’ isn’t the end all of training. In fact, if your goal is maximal muscle size, it may not be what you want at all!

My future brother in law is a Powerlifter/Strongman competitor. Along with him, I get to hang around with some pretty sizable guys. The difference between people who are ‘large’ (and this can be bone structure, height, whatever), and looking like a bodybuilder, comes down to just how much muscle you have put on your frame. I don’t have the largest frame in the world; 5’8 on a good day, pretty small joints, heck, I was 150 (non-ripped) lbs in college, BUT, due to the amount of muscle I have built, and this is no disrespect whatsoever to any of my strongman/powerlifter buddies, I’m easily much much more muscular to anyone seeing us in the gym together. Were my pals to magically strip all of their ‘excess’ bodyfat away, they would certainly not be as ‘big’ as they may think. The issue though, is that in their chosen competitive arena, it doesn’t take anything away from them, and may actually serve to help them somewhat.

The few times I’ve trained with Anthony (bro in law), who by the way is about 240-260 lbs right now, aside from tossing up an incline bench of 315 when I was repping with 275, he followed my hypertrophy workout and couldn’t hang as well as some might have expected. He was weak on all but the first exercise. Why? because he doesn’t train in that way. In fact, if you look at some of the better powerlifters (SOME of them! Don’t jump on this point!!!), they may not exhibit as much muscle as you might expect when viewing their lifts!

The point is, strength does not always equate to muscle size. The more experienced, and knowledgeable guys on here all have, and will all echo this point (while a few who will never step into the light of visibility will cling to whatever sacred dogma they may hold dear because it’s safe).

S

[HolyMacaroni]

this thread ended up delivering

[deadliftgoal500]

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
^BUZZA hits on good points. Also, BONEZ’ re-emphasizing that muscles do NOT know how much weight (#-wise) that they are lifting is a huge point that everyone who gets caught up chasing #s or equating strength=growth as the only law of hypertrophy seems to forget. Except for guys like Yates, who we can all agree had one in a million genetics, who use strength increases as the only barometer, most of the competitors I know and speak with don’t train in the same way as when they started.

They all come to that moment, whether due to injury, frustration, research, or just by accident when they realize that ‘progressive overload’ isn’t the end all of training. In fact, if your goal is maximal muscle size, it may not be what you want at all!

My future brother in law is a Powerlifter/Strongman competitor. Along with him, I get to hang around with some pretty sizable guys. The difference between people who are ‘large’ (and this can be bone structure, height, whatever), and looking like a bodybuilder, comes down to just how much muscle you have put on your frame. I don’t have the largest frame in the world; 5’8 on a good day, pretty small joints, heck, I was 150 (non-ripped) lbs in college, BUT, due to the amount of muscle I have built, and this is no disrespect whatsoever to any of my strongman/powerlifter buddies, I’m easily much much more muscular to anyone seeing us in the gym together. Were my pals to magically strip all of their ‘excess’ bodyfat away, they would certainly not be as ‘big’ as they may think. The issue though, is that in their chosen competitive arena, it doesn’t take anything away from them, and may actually serve to help them somewhat.

The few times I’ve trained with Anthony (bro in law), who by the way is about 240-260 lbs right now, aside from tossing up an incline bench of 315 when I was repping with 275, he followed my hypertrophy workout and couldn’t hang as well as some might have expected. He was weak on all but the first exercise. Why? because he doesn’t train in that way. In fact, if you look at some of the better powerlifters (SOME of them! Don’t jump on this point!!!), they may not exhibit as much muscle as you might expect when viewing their lifts!

The point is, strength does not always equate to muscle size. The more experienced, and knowledgeable guys on here all have, and will all echo this point (while a few who will never step into the light of visibility will cling to whatever sacred dogma they may hold dear because it’s safe).

S[/quote]

Stu, what’s your opinion of programs like DC where the primary form of progression is more weight/more reps (aka strength)?

[Matthaeus]

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Matthaeus wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Matthaeus wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Anyone who says they benched 315 in under a year, is lying to you. Ok, if thats the case, you should be benching over 500lbs by now, RIGHTTTTT?? I suspect not. Why is it guys who say such thing, are most likely still only benching 315lbs. Why is that. They haven’t improved since then. lol. Its quite obvious it took them a hell of alot longer than a year or 2 to bench that. just use common sense. [/quote]

Some people make adaption in terms of strength gains very quickly, while others take longer. Similarly with hypertrophy gains. I didn’t start training until I was in my early 20’s, but had taught martial arts, ran track, and played hockey up til then, so maybe my body was more neurologically efficient than I realized.

The point is that while you can’t compare two different people’s physiology, your assumption that such strength gains will continue at such a rate indefinitely shows your complete lack of any real understanding of physiology, or even bodybuilding.

Besides the obvious slowing of ‘steps’ in gains, the reason so many more intermediate or advanced BODYBUILDING trainees stop chasing strength gains is because their goal is hypertrophy, which is not always induced by moving a wight from point A to point B.

I shall now go back to ignoring whatever expert advice RV shells out, but continue to answer, and discuss HONESTLY (like I always have on here) any questions or matters other people have

S[/quote]

You seem to be forgetting bodybuilding rule #1, PROGRESSION. Heres a fact for ya. you will not get bigger if your not getting stronger. yes, your gains slow down, i never said they didn’t. But you still have to get stronger in order to get bigger. My point was, if you got to 315 in only a year, you should be benching a hell of alot more than that now. Or are you saying your progress slows down that much after only 1 years time?

Listen, just cause you know how to starve yourself in order to compete in speedos on stage for some plastic trophy, doesn’t mean you know any more than anyone else. especially me. [/quote]

ahahhaha

1. your muscles know not the amount (read: the number) of weight used. Your muscles repond to stimulation. Lifting more weight than previously done is simply ONE way to create a new stimulus.

2. You are fat.

3. Stu has already discussed why raw strength is not his focus at this point in his career. Learn to read plain english.

4. You are covered by a thick layer of blubber.

5. You have a bare minimal understanding of physiology, at best.

6. Your accomplishments (lol) are diminished because you are a one trick pony. See 2 and 4. [/quote]

lmao simply brilliant.[/quote]

Anyone who looks at my pic and sees fat and not someone whos jacked to the gills, is disturbed and a hater and needs some mental help.[/quote]

Nobody here is envious of your physique no matter how amazing you think it is. You might see yourself a certain way but the overwhelming majority of people on this site who have seen your pictures find you both fat and unimpressive by bodybuilding standards including actual competitive bodybuilders.

I’m glad your happy and confident with the way you look but you really need to come to terms with that fact that most everyone here finds you fat and not just by competitive bodybuilding standards but by regular standards. Even the guys here who’s goals are to get as big as possible don’t want to look like you, because to the rest of us you just don’t look good plain and simple no matter how much you weigh or what measurements you claim.

If your that desperate for everyone’s approval and want us all to envy you and idolize your physique. Then you can either post actual pics of you hitting the mandatory poses or make a video of you doing them.

Or you can just accept the fact that no one here is impressed and stop bragging about how “JACKED TO THE GILLS” you are lol. Because if people here actually thought you were they would be giving you props and you wouldn’t constantly need to brag about it every thread you post in.

[/quote]

If i never said anything that upset anyone, I guarantee you, nobody would be saying I’m fat. where on my pic do you see fat? Anyways, if people don’t like you, obviously they aren’t going to be complimenatary towards you, thats human nature. I know guys that are only 180lbs that have a bigger gut than i do. and im 285-290lbs. [/quote]

Just because someone 100 lbs lighter then you is fatter then you doesn’t mean that you are not fat. I’m not saying you don’t have any muscle and you look sedentary, you don’t. Also what do you expect when you come into every single thread bragging about how jacked and huge you are all the damn time. When you put yourself out like that your going to get called out and if you don’t have the goods to back up your claims your going to get ragged on.

As for your “picture” you cropped out half your body in the pic and your wearing a shirt not to mention the fact that more then half of you is completely covered in shadows. However in the other pic you posted you can clearly see your arms lack any sort of definition or separation and have no vascularity, your delts looked flat and don’t have that full capped look. Also it could be because you were holding up a sign but your traps look smaller in that pic to.

I’m willing to bet if you put up another pic showing your whole body with your shirt off hitting a front double bicep you’ll look ever fatter then you did in your last pic. Or maybe just don’t go around calling yourself “hulk” and bragging about how “jacked to the gills you are” because seriously at this point you already know that nobody is overly impressed and your just basically asking to be called out.

For the record you have never said anything that upset me.

[Chris87]

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]buzza wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i never reached a 315 bench in all the years i competed in bodybuilding. strength wasn’t a concern of mine. i would say i never went above 275. i switched over to powerlifting about 6 years ago and was benching 315 within 6 months. [/quote]

MM,you are one of the stronger mofos I know,could you tall us if your chest has become bigger since you started PL at such high level?
thanx[/quote]

i still do a lot of hypertrophy training and that is what i would attribute my size to. You can get stronger without getting bigger and you can get bigger without lifting heavy. that’s a fact. now there is something to be said for having a bigger muscle to support heavier weights. strength is a function of neural efficiency…being able to fire more motor units. this happens through training in a low rep range and learning to strain under heavy weight.

this type of training won’t produce a huge amount of muscle mass. BUT at some point more mass will be needed to get to a certain strength level. It doesn’t go the other way though. You don’t HAVE to get to a certain strength level to gain more mass. Muscle mass is all about TUT…at least that’s how it has worked for me all these years. [/quote]

if your doing the same amount of weight in whatever exercise after a years time. You will not be any bigger. You need to get stronger in order to get bigger. that is one undisputed fact. yes, you can get stronger without getting bigger. If you do low reps, under 5, that won’t produce much growth. TUT is to low for that to occur. but, you still have to get stronger in the correct rep range to get bigger. thats a fact.[/quote]

i would agree with you if we are only talking about doing the same routine with the same exercises with the same weight for the same reps. getting bigger is about hitting the muscles from different angles with many different exercises. you want to keep the body from adapting. there are these things called complexes, circuits, rest/pause, drop sets, giant sets, decending sets, etc… the list goes on. it’s all about maintaining stress on the muscle for the most time possible.

Of course if you are doing a set of 10 with 225 on bench press week in and week out your body will quickly adapt to that and stop growing.
[/quote]

There are only so many basic compound exercises for each muscle. Even if you switch exercises all the time, you still have to get stronger in those exercises. Say you change up the tempo, which im doing now, by slowing down the movement, that will hit the muscle differently. but, even doing that, you still have to make progress in weight in order to keep getting bigger. [/quote]

let’s follow your logic for a moment then. if you are right, every huge bodybuilder out there should also be elite level powerlifters as well. if muscle size is in direct proportion to muscular strength then all the extremely huge bodybuilders should all be benching well over 500lbs, squatting 800 or more lbs…same for deadlift, since to coninue getting huge you HAVE to get stronger. [/quote]

remember, most pros are just trying to carve up what they already have. most aren’t trying to get bigger. they try and bring up parts they feel need more work. but overall they aren’t trying to get bigger.

[/quote]

Muscles do not “carve up.” Muscles only get bigger or get smaller.

Trying to “bring up weak points” means that they are in fact seeking hypertrophy in these weak points, which means that they would have to be getting stronger, according to your logic.

If we continue to follow your logic, then by having an overwhelmingly larger amount of muscle mass, pro bodybuilders must be overwhelmingly stronger then elite powerlifters.

This is not true. Yes, they are strong, but a 405 bench is not elite for a SHW powerlifter.

Thus, your logic is disproven and false.[/quote]

1-Listen, bodybuilders are not as strong as powerlifters.

2- i googled

3- I guarantee you this, every pro bodybuilder is going to be stronger now, than he was 50lbs ago.

4- If your a 200lb guy, think back to when you were 160lbs, are you stronger now?

5- Ok, the only exception i can see, is say someone always trained with fast paced and explosive reps, then they started getting injured so they cut back on the weight, and focused more on form and slow controlled reps. that will lower the weight they are lifting. but, if they continue to train in that manner, to make further gains, they will have to get stronger while doing the slower reps. Im not talking huge increases in strength, but over the course of months, they have to make strength gains.[/quote]

1- I know bodybuilders are not stronger then powerlifters (assuming both are elite). I made that point.

2- Glad you based your whole philosophy on a google search.

3- I’d hope so.

4- Yes, very much so. I’m also not a bodybuilder.

5- So now you say there is an exception? You seemed to be very sure that there were none a few posts ago.

You have made no relevant arguments, see my last post.[/quote]

There is no exception. Bad wording on my part. I simply meant, by changing the tempo of the rep, you won’t be able to lift as much. But that will be your starting point. from then on, in order for you to make gains in size, you have to get stronger. [/quote]

See my first post, where I proved you wrong using your own logic.

[system]

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:

[quote]buzza wrote:

[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i never reached a 315 bench in all the years i competed in bodybuilding. strength wasn’t a concern of mine. i would say i never went above 275. i switched over to powerlifting about 6 years ago and was benching 315 within 6 months. [/quote]

MM,you are one of the stronger mofos I know,could you tall us if your chest has become bigger since you started PL at such high level?
thanx[/quote]

i still do a lot of hypertrophy training and that is what i would attribute my size to. You can get stronger without getting bigger and you can get bigger without lifting heavy. that’s a fact. now there is something to be said for having a bigger muscle to support heavier weights. strength is a function of neural efficiency…being able to fire more motor units. this happens through training in a low rep range and learning to strain under heavy weight.

this type of training won’t produce a huge amount of muscle mass. BUT at some point more mass will be needed to get to a certain strength level. It doesn’t go the other way though. You don’t HAVE to get to a certain strength level to gain more mass. Muscle mass is all about TUT…at least that’s how it has worked for me all these years. [/quote]

if your doing the same amount of weight in whatever exercise after a years time. You will not be any bigger. You need to get stronger in order to get bigger. that is one undisputed fact. yes, you can get stronger without getting bigger. If you do low reps, under 5, that won’t produce much growth. TUT is to low for that to occur. but, you still have to get stronger in the correct rep range to get bigger. thats a fact.[/quote]

i would agree with you if we are only talking about doing the same routine with the same exercises with the same weight for the same reps. getting bigger is about hitting the muscles from different angles with many different exercises. you want to keep the body from adapting. there are these things called complexes, circuits, rest/pause, drop sets, giant sets, decending sets, etc… the list goes on. it’s all about maintaining stress on the muscle for the most time possible.

Of course if you are doing a set of 10 with 225 on bench press week in and week out your body will quickly adapt to that and stop growing.
[/quote]

There are only so many basic compound exercises for each muscle. Even if you switch exercises all the time, you still have to get stronger in those exercises. Say you change up the tempo, which im doing now, by slowing down the movement, that will hit the muscle differently. but, even doing that, you still have to make progress in weight in order to keep getting bigger. [/quote]

let’s follow your logic for a moment then. if you are right, every huge bodybuilder out there should also be elite level powerlifters as well. if muscle size is in direct proportion to muscular strength then all the extremely huge bodybuilders should all be benching well over 500lbs, squatting 800 or more lbs…same for deadlift, since to coninue getting huge you HAVE to get stronger. [/quote]

remember, most pros are just trying to carve up what they already have. most aren’t trying to get bigger. they try and bring up parts they feel need more work. but overall they aren’t trying to get bigger.

[/quote]

Muscles do not “carve up.” Muscles only get bigger or get smaller.

Trying to “bring up weak points” means that they are in fact seeking hypertrophy in these weak points, which means that they would have to be getting stronger, according to your logic.

If we continue to follow your logic, then by having an overwhelmingly larger amount of muscle mass, pro bodybuilders must be overwhelmingly stronger then elite powerlifters.

This is not true. Yes, they are strong, but a 405 bench is not elite for a SHW powerlifter.

Thus, your logic is disproven and false.[/quote]

1-Listen, bodybuilders are not as strong as powerlifters.

2- i googled

3- I guarantee you this, every pro bodybuilder is going to be stronger now, than he was 50lbs ago.

4- If your a 200lb guy, think back to when you were 160lbs, are you stronger now?

5- Ok, the only exception i can see, is say someone always trained with fast paced and explosive reps, then they started getting injured so they cut back on the weight, and focused more on form and slow controlled reps. that will lower the weight they are lifting. but, if they continue to train in that manner, to make further gains, they will have to get stronger while doing the slower reps. Im not talking huge increases in strength, but over the course of months, they have to make strength gains.[/quote]

1- I know bodybuilders are not stronger then powerlifters (assuming both are elite). I made that point.

2- Glad you based your whole philosophy on a google search.

3- I’d hope so.

4- Yes, very much so. I’m also not a bodybuilder.

5- So now you say there is an exception? You seemed to be very sure that there were none a few posts ago.

You have made no relevant arguments, see my last post.[/quote]

There is no exception. Bad wording on my part. I simply meant, by changing the tempo of the rep, you won’t be able to lift as much. But that will be your starting point. from then on, in order for you to make gains in size, you have to get stronger. [/quote]

See my first post, where I proved you wrong using your own logic.[/quote]

I am an avid reader of various bodybuilding articles. I thirst for knowledge. I have been at this for most probably longer than most here. And in everything that i have ever read, in all this time, i have never once ever come across any reliable expert saying you can get bigger without getting stronger. There might be some various intensity techniques that can work, but im talking over the course of months. You have to get stronger to get bigger, that is a fundemental fact that simply can not be disputed.

And no, you have not proven me wrong. SHOW ME one article written by anyone that says you can get bigger without getting stronger. Now, im not talking as a shock technique like drop sets or rest pause, im talking over the course of say 2 years time. IN that time, you have to get stronger. Again, show me one article or one expert that says otherwise. please, show me.

[The_Mighty_Stu]

^I have quite the library of scientific based texts on training (PT from 3 diff orgs, CSCS, a few of my brothers doctoral physiology texts and monthly CSCS journals) and they ALL touch on the fact that you can’t make strength improvements continually forever, and that there are other methods (for ‘advanced’ trainees) to constantly applying a growth stimulus to muscles. There is no real argument amongst the top people in the field. There are however older school folks who cling to dogma that has since been disproved.

Reading ‘bodybuilding articles’ is probably one of the worst sources for viable training and nutrition information I can imagine.

S

[system]

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
^I have quite the library of scientific based texts on training (PT from 3 diff orgs, CSCS, a few of my brothers doctoral physiology texts and monthly CSCS journals) and they ALL touch on the fact that you can’t make strength improvements continually forever, and that there are other methods (for ‘advanced’ trainees) to constantly applying a growth stimulus to muscles. There is no real argument amongst the top people in the field. There are however older school folks who cling to dogma that has since been disproved.

Reading ‘bodybuilding articles’ is probably one of the worst sources for viable training and nutrition information I can imagine.

S[/quote]

Ok, I do realize that eventually you will stop making strength gains. But i have seen guys in their 60’s setting pr’s. If one of those techniques is to simply add volume to the workouts. that simply wouldn’t work for me. When i do alot of volume, i simply burnout and overtrain. my workouts have to be brief.

I am aware of the all the different intensity techniques and am willing to try anything. I’m not close minded. By hearing your thoughts and others, perhaps there are other ways of gaining size besides simply getting stronger.

[buzza]

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

Reading ‘bodybuilding articles’ is probably one of the worst sources for viable training and nutrition information I can imagine.

S[/quote]

STU FOR PRESIDENT!! lol

[buzza]

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

When i do alot of volume, i simply burnout and overtrain. my workouts have to be brief.

[/quote]

???
RV,
if you just shorten your rest periods between sets (of course using same loads you are used to) you have enother way of progression than strenght tout court.

if you just puish to (concentric) failure plus some partial reps (enother way of progression)…
and,strangely?! LOL, you discovered after a while that you become a little stronger with same weight (not sure about maximal strenght increase,btw).
btw,my w/os are brief too,maximum 40/45m…

[Chris87]

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
^I have quite the library of scientific based texts on training (PT from 3 diff orgs, CSCS, a few of my brothers doctoral physiology texts and monthly CSCS journals) and they ALL touch on the fact that you can’t make strength improvements continually forever, and that there are other methods (for ‘advanced’ trainees) to constantly applying a growth stimulus to muscles. There is no real argument amongst the top people in the field. There are however older school folks who cling to dogma that has since been disproved.

Reading ‘bodybuilding articles’ is probably one of the worst sources for viable training and nutrition information I can imagine.

S[/quote]

I am aware of the all the different intensity techniques and am willing to try anything. I’m not close minded. By hearing your thoughts and others, perhaps there are other ways of gaining size besides simply getting stronger. [/quote]

I was going to point you towards Stu’s first post in which he described doing exactly that. He’s been in magazines, so I would consider him an expert.

This is the second time that you have admitted you are wrong. Are you going to reply to this saying “No there’s no way you can gain muscle without getting stronger, I just know it” like you did after the first time you admitted you were wrong?

It’s also surprising that now you accept what Stu has written when in the beggining of this thread you told him he was wrong.

[sexyxe]

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I benched 315 before last summer and hit 325 right after that. My bench is currently approaching 405 (sitting at about 385 right now) and I’ve been training for about two and half years. I have not a freakish trait to my name. Focus on hard work, smart training, and consistency.[/quote]

Nice.

[IFlashBack]

First off, this thread is pretty awesome. Learned a lot.

As a background, I started lifting feb 2011
I started with a 115lb bench, now I can do 270lb

I was just wondering how long until one has to worry about concentrating on strength OR size?

Like if I simply run my first movement as a strength movement, (currently running 5/3/1), and then just focus my assistance work for things like TUT, contraction and all that. Should I not reap the benefits of both worlds for the time being?

[system]

If he had gotten bigger without getting stronger, then it has to be possible, right? It just goes against everything i have ever read. thats why I was hesitant to believe it.

[The_Mighty_Stu]

[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
First off, this thread is pretty awesome. Learned a lot.

As a background, I started lifting feb 2011
I started with a 115lb bench, now I can do 270lb

I was just wondering how long until one has to worry about concentrating on strength OR size?

Like if I simply run my first movement as a strength movement, (currently running 5/3/1), and then just focus my assistance work for things like TUT, contraction and all that. Should I not reap the benefits of both worlds for the time being?

[/quote]

If you’re making gains in both strength and hypertrophy, then by all means keep going! Eventually, one or the other will stall, and that’s when you need to look at your approach, and figure out what to change (and sometimes that means focusing on one goal or the other, at least for the time being).

S

[superdad4]

First off, I would like to say that this has become one of the most interesting threads I have ever read on T-Nation. That being said, I am hoping it will turn more into an intellectual discourse rather than a mud slinging, insult riddled argument.

The concept on how muscle is built is a facinating one. Much has been researched, some things have been proven, but so much is yet unknown. That is why I love hearing ancedotal evidence sometimes presented here. I will be the first to admit that Rv comes off as a brash, concieted, overbearing lout. BUT, he is undoubtable a big guy with a lot of muscle. I won’t get pulled into the argument of whether he is fat or not.

One of the people I most admire here is Stu, and he has built an impressive physique, and is obviously very knowlegeable about the sport. I think we can learn from both of these men, maybe more so from one than the other. I just see people slinging mud and insults at RV because of his disturbing personality and sometimes outlandish comments. I think if we can get past that we might be able to gain something from this guy. Look, I am for entertainment as much as the next guy, but I, for one, prefer to find it in SAMA or GAL. Just my observations.