How Long to Reach a 315 Bench?

Training
81

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
First off, this thread is pretty awesome. Learned a lot.

As a background, I started lifting feb 2011
I started with a 115lb bench, now I can do 270lb

I was just wondering how long until one has to worry about concentrating on strength OR size?

Like if I simply run my first movement as a strength movement, (currently running 5/3/1), and then just focus my assistance work for things like TUT, contraction and all that. Should I not reap the benefits of both worlds for the time being?

[/quote]

If you’re making gains in both strength and hypertrophy, then by all means keep going! Eventually, one or the other will stall, and that’s when you need to look at your approach, and figure out what to change (and sometimes that means focusing on one goal or the other, at least for the time being).

S
[/quote]

Thanks! much appreciated.

82

this video pretty much sums up it all up

83

^Nice to know Thibs n’ I are in agreement -lol

S

84

A thought I had while watching that video (along with “Oh my God, Synergy is a monster.”):

I’ll project this question at Stu, but it’s a general question:

Stu, in that video Synergy talks about reaching upper strength limits. Now, for him that’s reaching insanely high numbers (e.g. squatting 600+ and such) that would have a significant effect on the skeletal system and such (presumably) and would move towards the point that progression wasn’t possible.

My question is whether you might have set your own “artificial” strength limits on yourself in order to (a) enhance hypertrophy and/or (b) protect joint and muscle integrity over the long term.

So, to use flat barbell bench as an example (let’s asy that were part of your routine), is there a certain weight vis-a-vis your bodyweight that you keep in mind as your “limit” on bench press, after which you start doing things like reducing rest time, increasing repetitions, or increasing overall sets instead of increasing in weight?

85

[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
First off, this thread is pretty awesome. Learned a lot.

As a background, I started lifting feb 2011
I started with a 115lb bench, now I can do 270lb

I was just wondering how long until one has to worry about concentrating on strength OR size?

Like if I simply run my first movement as a strength movement, (currently running 5/3/1), and then just focus my assistance work for things like TUT, contraction and all that. Should I not reap the benefits of both worlds for the time being?

[/quote]

To your final sentence: Most people could do well training similar to this for a long time. But

It really depends how extreme your goals are.

If you want to be the best at a certain thing you will have to gear your traning towards that sooner than later. Not many people can be a jack of all trades AND be the best.

But if youre happy with your progress in both facets, there’s no reason to change what youre doing.

edit

didnt see Stu’s response. Listen to that.

86

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
A thought I had while watching that video (along with “Oh my God, Synergy is a monster.”):

I’ll project this question at Stu, but it’s a general question:

Stu, in that video Synergy talks about reaching upper strength limits. Now, for him that’s reaching insanely high numbers (e.g. squatting 600+ and such) that would have a significant effect on the skeletal system and such (presumably) and would move towards the point that progression wasn’t possible.

My question is whether you might have set your own “artificial” strength limits on yourself in order to (a) enhance hypertrophy and/or (b) protect joint and muscle integrity over the long term.

So, to use flat barbell bench as an example (let’s asy that were part of your routine), is there a certain weight vis-a-vis your bodyweight that you keep in mind as your “limit” on bench press, after which you start doing things like reducing rest time, increasing repetitions, or increasing overall sets instead of increasing in weight?[/quote]

Firstly… yeah, I had the same thoughts about Synergy when I was hanging with him too -lol

Ok, seriously, we’re not talking about subconscious limits here (ie. the mental barrier of breaking the 4 minute mile, after it fell, suddenly it became common for a sub 4:00 time). When we’re discussing bodybuilders, you have to keep their actual goal in mind. Initially, for most trainees, size and strength do go hand in hand. They are usually both untrained areas, and as such, they usually respond similarly to the new stimulus of weight training.

Once progressing beyond the beginner, and sometimes intermediate stages, the smart bodybuilder will objectively look at whether he is still reaping size gains from chasing strength in the gym, or if he must address other variables to challenge himself during each session.

Additionally, as you mentioned, there is always the factor of joint integrity, overuse injuries, or any number of reasons to cease continually striving for ‘progressive overload’ in terms of weight used, (as well as failing to make desired size gains of course).

In my own personal experience, the weights I was using at my strongest point were nothing a powerlifter would write home about, but for the small boned 20 year old kid who initially stumbled into the weight room on a whim, it certainly gave me a feeling of accomplishment and worth, despite not fully understanding why I still didn’t look like every weight room ‘expert’ told me I would when I had gotten sufficiently stronger.

Believe me, it was pretty scary thinking that by not training in the way I was originally instructed to (“get stronger and you’ll get bigger”), I was going to lose ground. Well, I no longer flat bench 385, but maybe I can hit 315 if my shoulder feels especially good some days. Also, I doubt I can still back squat 550, although my front squat has been as high as 315, but I usually stay around 225-245 and do higher reps, deep abbreviated ROMs with explosive concentrics. Full deads have been off the table for several years now, so while I may still tell my students I can pull 500, I’m much more likely to rep with 100 lb DBs in a very very controlled manner.

To compare my physique from when I could move these weights to now isn’t even close. I kept telling myself that one day all the strength gains would magically yield the resultant gains in size. No matter how hard I wanted it, it wasn’t going to come. Luckily I was smart enough to realize that, and change my tactics. I’m also humble enough to admit that my thinking was incorrect.

S

87

Wow! Now this is what I am talking about! No insults, just pure, adulterated advice. Well done Stu!

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
A thought I had while watching that video (along with “Oh my God, Synergy is a monster.”):

I’ll project this question at Stu, but it’s a general question:

Stu, in that video Synergy talks about reaching upper strength limits. Now, for him that’s reaching insanely high numbers (e.g. squatting 600+ and such) that would have a significant effect on the skeletal system and such (presumably) and would move towards the point that progression wasn’t possible.

My question is whether you might have set your own “artificial” strength limits on yourself in order to (a) enhance hypertrophy and/or (b) protect joint and muscle integrity over the long term.

So, to use flat barbell bench as an example (let’s asy that were part of your routine), is there a certain weight vis-a-vis your bodyweight that you keep in mind as your “limit” on bench press, after which you start doing things like reducing rest time, increasing repetitions, or increasing overall sets instead of increasing in weight?[/quote]

Firstly… yeah, I had the same thoughts about Synergy when I was hanging with him too -lol

Ok, seriously, we’re not talking about subconscious limits here (ie. the mental barrier of breaking the 4 minute mile, after it fell, suddenly it became common for a sub 4:00 time). When we’re discussing bodybuilders, you have to keep their actual goal in mind. Initially, for most trainees, size and strength do go hand in hand. They are usually both untrained areas, and as such, they usually respond similarly to the new stimulus of weight training.

Once progressing beyond the beginner, and sometimes intermediate stages, the smart bodybuilder will objectively look at whether he is still reaping size gains from chasing strength in the gym, or if he must address other variables to challenge himself during each session.

Additionally, as you mentioned, there is always the factor of joint integrity, overuse injuries, or any number of reasons to cease continually striving for ‘progressive overload’ in terms of weight used, (as well as failing to make desired size gains of course).

In my own personal experience, the weights I was using at my strongest point were nothing a powerlifter would write home about, but for the small boned 20 year old kid who initially stumbled into the weight room on a whim, it certainly gave me a feeling of accomplishment and worth, despite not fully understanding why I still didn’t look like every weight room ‘expert’ told me I would when I had gotten sufficiently stronger.

Believe me, it was pretty scary thinking that by not training in the way I was originally instructed to (“get stronger and you’ll get bigger”), I was going to lose ground. Well, I no longer flat bench 385, but maybe I can hit 315 if my shoulder feels especially good some days. Also, I doubt I can still back squat 550, although my front squat has been as high as 315, but I usually stay around 225-245 and do higher reps, deep abbreviated ROMs with explosive concentrics. Full deads have been off the table for several years now, so while I may still tell my students I can pull 500, I’m much more likely to rep with 100 lb DBs in a very very controlled manner.

To compare my physique from when I could move these weights to now isn’t even close. I kept telling myself that one day all the strength gains would magically yield the resultant gains in size. No matter how hard I wanted it, it wasn’t going to come. Luckily I was smart enough to realize that, and change my tactics. I’m also humble enough to admit that my thinking was incorrect.

S
[/quote]

88

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
A thought I had while watching that video (along with “Oh my God, Synergy is a monster.”):

I’ll project this question at Stu, but it’s a general question:

Stu, in that video Synergy talks about reaching upper strength limits. Now, for him that’s reaching insanely high numbers (e.g. squatting 600+ and such) that would have a significant effect on the skeletal system and such (presumably) and would move towards the point that progression wasn’t possible.

My question is whether you might have set your own “artificial” strength limits on yourself in order to (a) enhance hypertrophy and/or (b) protect joint and muscle integrity over the long term.

So, to use flat barbell bench as an example (let’s asy that were part of your routine), is there a certain weight vis-a-vis your bodyweight that you keep in mind as your “limit” on bench press, after which you start doing things like reducing rest time, increasing repetitions, or increasing overall sets instead of increasing in weight?[/quote]

Firstly… yeah, I had the same thoughts about Synergy when I was hanging with him too -lol

Ok, seriously, we’re not talking about subconscious limits here (ie. the mental barrier of breaking the 4 minute mile, after it fell, suddenly it became common for a sub 4:00 time). When we’re discussing bodybuilders, you have to keep their actual goal in mind. Initially, for most trainees, size and strength do go hand in hand. They are usually both untrained areas, and as such, they usually respond similarly to the new stimulus of weight training.

Once progressing beyond the beginner, and sometimes intermediate stages, the smart bodybuilder will objectively look at whether he is still reaping size gains from chasing strength in the gym, or if he must address other variables to challenge himself during each session.

Additionally, as you mentioned, there is always the factor of joint integrity, overuse injuries, or any number of reasons to cease continually striving for ‘progressive overload’ in terms of weight used, (as well as failing to make desired size gains of course).

In my own personal experience, the weights I was using at my strongest point were nothing a powerlifter would write home about, but for the small boned 20 year old kid who initially stumbled into the weight room on a whim, it certainly gave me a feeling of accomplishment and worth, despite not fully understanding why I still didn’t look like every weight room ‘expert’ told me I would when I had gotten sufficiently stronger.

Believe me, it was pretty scary thinking that by not training in the way I was originally instructed to (“get stronger and you’ll get bigger”), I was going to lose ground. Well, I no longer flat bench 385, but maybe I can hit 315 if my shoulder feels especially good some days. Also, I doubt I can still back squat 550, although my front squat has been as high as 315, but I usually stay around 225-245 and do higher reps, deep abbreviated ROMs with explosive concentrics. Full deads have been off the table for several years now, so while I may still tell my students I can pull 500, I’m much more likely to rep with 100 lb DBs in a very very controlled manner.

To compare my physique from when I could move these weights to now isn’t even close. I kept telling myself that one day all the strength gains would magically yield the resultant gains in size. No matter how hard I wanted it, it wasn’t going to come. Luckily I was smart enough to realize that, and change my tactics. I’m also humble enough to admit that my thinking was incorrect.

S
[/quote]

Cool post Stu. But as a more general question, do you think the ability to hit those numbers in the first place was important? So, for example, you worked up to a 385 bench, and then changed up your routine and started doing slow eccentrics, short rests etc with 315… which is still a pretty damn good weight (especially with those techniques) as compared to your ‘standard’ (non-PL/strongman) gym goer.

So, that is, do you think if you’d said “no need to get stronger, I’ve hit 225” and started your slow eccentrics with 165lb benches, you’d have reaped the same results? Or do you think hitting that ‘strength ceiling’ (even if it’s not a true power lifter strength ceiling) was valuable in the long run. In a similar vein, I’ve seen John Meadows talk about how his advanced programs switch up exercises a lot (change the order all the time), whereas beginner and intermediate programs change the order less (for a more ‘standard’ progression I presume).

89

[quote]danchubb wrote:

Cool post Stu. But as a more general question, do you think the ability to hit those numbers in the first place was important? So, for example, you worked up to a 385 bench, and then changed up your routine and started doing slow eccentrics, short rests etc with 315… which is still a pretty damn good weight (especially with those techniques) as compared to your ‘standard’ (non-PL/strongman) gym goer.

So, that is, do you think if you’d said “no need to get stronger, I’ve hit 225” and started your slow eccentrics with 165lb benches, you’d have reaped the same results? Or do you think hitting that ‘strength ceiling’ (even if it’s not a true power lifter strength ceiling) was valuable in the long run. In a similar vein, I’ve seen John Meadows talk about how his advanced programs switch up exercises a lot (change the order all the time), whereas beginner and intermediate programs change the order less (for a more ‘standard’ progression I presume). [/quote]

I like this question, although I don’t think it should be phrased as “no need to get stronger” so much as “no need at this point to increase the poundage” vis-a-vis getting stronger in other respects (e.g. more repetitions, variations of the movement, etc.). And, of course, you would start progressing from the 165lb number, not the 225lb number. You would still be progressively overloading the muscles, but just not at a weight (e.g. benching 350 or whatever) that would be more taxing on joints and such for doing a higher volume, hypertrophy-focused workout.

90

[quote]danchubb wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
A thought I had while watching that video (along with “Oh my God, Synergy is a monster.”):

I’ll project this question at Stu, but it’s a general question:

Stu, in that video Synergy talks about reaching upper strength limits. Now, for him that’s reaching insanely high numbers (e.g. squatting 600+ and such) that would have a significant effect on the skeletal system and such (presumably) and would move towards the point that progression wasn’t possible.

My question is whether you might have set your own “artificial” strength limits on yourself in order to (a) enhance hypertrophy and/or (b) protect joint and muscle integrity over the long term.

So, to use flat barbell bench as an example (let’s asy that were part of your routine), is there a certain weight vis-a-vis your bodyweight that you keep in mind as your “limit” on bench press, after which you start doing things like reducing rest time, increasing repetitions, or increasing overall sets instead of increasing in weight?[/quote]

Firstly… yeah, I had the same thoughts about Synergy when I was hanging with him too -lol

Ok, seriously, we’re not talking about subconscious limits here (ie. the mental barrier of breaking the 4 minute mile, after it fell, suddenly it became common for a sub 4:00 time). When we’re discussing bodybuilders, you have to keep their actual goal in mind. Initially, for most trainees, size and strength do go hand in hand. They are usually both untrained areas, and as such, they usually respond similarly to the new stimulus of weight training.

Once progressing beyond the beginner, and sometimes intermediate stages, the smart bodybuilder will objectively look at whether he is still reaping size gains from chasing strength in the gym, or if he must address other variables to challenge himself during each session.

Additionally, as you mentioned, there is always the factor of joint integrity, overuse injuries, or any number of reasons to cease continually striving for ‘progressive overload’ in terms of weight used, (as well as failing to make desired size gains of course).

In my own personal experience, the weights I was using at my strongest point were nothing a powerlifter would write home about, but for the small boned 20 year old kid who initially stumbled into the weight room on a whim, it certainly gave me a feeling of accomplishment and worth, despite not fully understanding why I still didn’t look like every weight room ‘expert’ told me I would when I had gotten sufficiently stronger.

Believe me, it was pretty scary thinking that by not training in the way I was originally instructed to (“get stronger and you’ll get bigger”), I was going to lose ground. Well, I no longer flat bench 385, but maybe I can hit 315 if my shoulder feels especially good some days. Also, I doubt I can still back squat 550, although my front squat has been as high as 315, but I usually stay around 225-245 and do higher reps, deep abbreviated ROMs with explosive concentrics. Full deads have been off the table for several years now, so while I may still tell my students I can pull 500, I’m much more likely to rep with 100 lb DBs in a very very controlled manner.

To compare my physique from when I could move these weights to now isn’t even close. I kept telling myself that one day all the strength gains would magically yield the resultant gains in size. No matter how hard I wanted it, it wasn’t going to come. Luckily I was smart enough to realize that, and change my tactics. I’m also humble enough to admit that my thinking was incorrect.

S
[/quote]

Cool post Stu. But as a more general question, do you think the ability to hit those numbers in the first place was important? So, for example, you worked up to a 385 bench, and then changed up your routine and started doing slow eccentrics, short rests etc with 315… which is still a pretty damn good weight (especially with those techniques) as compared to your ‘standard’ (non-PL/strongman) gym goer.

So, that is, do you think if you’d said “no need to get stronger, I’ve hit 225” and started your slow eccentrics with 165lb benches, you’d have reaped the same results? Or do you think hitting that ‘strength ceiling’ (even if it’s not a true power lifter strength ceiling) was valuable in the long run. In a similar vein, I’ve seen John Meadows talk about how his advanced programs switch up exercises a lot (change the order all the time), whereas beginner and intermediate programs change the order less (for a more ‘standard’ progression I presume). [/quote]
I’m super duper interested in what the bigger guys have to say about this question.

91

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
I just love the internet guys here saying, "oh, i benched 315 in a year or 2 years. Lets get with reality. When I started lifting, I was probably 16, probably could bench, if i remember correctly, no more than 125lbs. it took me a good 5 years to bench that. maybe longer.

Anyone who says they benched 315 in under a year, is lying to you. Ok, if thats the case, you should be benching over 500lbs by now, RIGHTTTTT?? I suspect not. Why is it guys who say such thing, are most likely still only benching 315lbs. Why is that. They haven’t improved since then. lol. Its quite obvious it took them a hell of alot longer than a year or 2 to bench that. just use common sense. [/quote]

i benched 315x1 in about 12 months at 185lbs… whats so hard to believe about that? and im not even swole

92

After I started lifting it took me almost 4 years to hit 315 on bench. I blame poor programs, bad nutrition, and marginal dedication.

93

LOL @ “Jacked to the Grillz”

94

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]danchubb wrote:

Cool post Stu. But as a more general question, do you think the ability to hit those numbers in the first place was important? So, for example, you worked up to a 385 bench, and then changed up your routine and started doing slow eccentrics, short rests etc with 315… which is still a pretty damn good weight (especially with those techniques) as compared to your ‘standard’ (non-PL/strongman) gym goer.

So, that is, do you think if you’d said “no need to get stronger, I’ve hit 225” and started your slow eccentrics with 165lb benches, you’d have reaped the same results? Or do you think hitting that ‘strength ceiling’ (even if it’s not a true power lifter strength ceiling) was valuable in the long run. In a similar vein, I’ve seen John Meadows talk about how his advanced programs switch up exercises a lot (change the order all the time), whereas beginner and intermediate programs change the order less (for a more ‘standard’ progression I presume). [/quote]

I like this question, although I don’t think it should be phrased as “no need to get stronger” so much as “no need at this point to increase the poundage” vis-a-vis getting stronger in other respects (e.g. more repetitions, variations of the movement, etc.). And, of course, you would start progressing from the 165lb number, not the 225lb number. You would still be progressively overloading the muscles, but just not at a weight (e.g. benching 350 or whatever) that would be more taxing on joints and such for doing a higher volume, hypertrophy-focused workout.[/quote]

It’s not an “ok, I’m strong enough for my taste” moment, it’s simply a moment of reflection, where you have to weigh if you are still making the mass gains you initially were, combined with any joint/injury issues as well. If you’re just chasing #s and chalking up aches and pains without any actual gains in muscle size, you need to reassess your approach.

Whether or not there is conclusive evidence of a strength ceiling or not, I think we can all realize that muscles will undoubtedly reach a point where if any strength gains are coming, it’s so minute that you have to wonder if the returns (wear and tear on the body) are worth it. #'s will still go up though due to technique, improving neural efficiency, secondary muscles etc, but for our discussion, I’m assuming to focus on strength levels of the primary target muscle.

I do believe that there is certainly some benefit to repping with a higher weight than a lower one, but we must question how much of the improvement is due to actual stress on the target muscle, and how much is from the heightened efficiency developed in the time it took the trainer getting to the point where they can even lift the heavier weight? Tendon and connective tissues will strengthen over years with heavy overload, and if you’re not a complete ego lifter, your mental focus and technique will improve as well. So ideally, after you’ve put in your ‘time’, you will be better prepared to back away from being a #-chaser. Shawn Ray wrote a long while back that he could get a good workout with just a 35 lb dumbell. For the IFBB Pro Shawn Ray to say that, it makes sense, however, give a 35 lb dumbell to 16 year old, just started weight training Shawn Ray, and see if he develops a prize winning physique with it.

S

95

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
I just love the internet guys here saying, "oh, i benched 315 in a year or 2 years. Lets get with reality. When I started lifting, I was probably 16, probably could bench, if i remember correctly, no more than 125lbs. it took me a good 5 years to bench that. maybe longer.

Anyone who says they benched 315 in under a year, is lying to you. Ok, if thats the case, you should be benching over 500lbs by now, RIGHTTTTT?? I suspect not. Why is it guys who say such thing, are most likely still only benching 315lbs. Why is that. They haven’t improved since then. lol. Its quite obvious it took them a hell of alot longer than a year or 2 to bench that. just use common sense. [/quote]

^^^hater^^^everyone knows its easier to take a 135 bench to 225, 275 than it is to go from 315 to 500. 5 lbs. starts feeling like 500

listen, 10 months ago i stared working out, barely putting up 135, today im repping 275 8 times with good form( slow, controlled, elbow breaking 90, etc…) yesterday i hit 315 once perfect form and its only going higher from there. so it all depends on how bad you want it
diet= trash, im in the navy i ate all of my meals on the ship, drink your bodyweight in protein, eat plenty before bed
genetics= what?! my family is all fat and has a history of diabetes
training split=day 1-chest, shoulders, triceps day 2-back biceps day 3 -legs then repeat no days off no pain no gain
so dont let anyone tell you it cant be done, anything is possible with hard work and dedication, oh and all of this was done on deployment in the middle east where i work all day in 120+ degrees.
oh and 2 a days will be your best friend,

96

[quote]lilj0011 wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
I just love the internet guys here saying, "oh, i benched 315 in a year or 2 years. Lets get with reality. When I started lifting, I was probably 16, probably could bench, if i remember correctly, no more than 125lbs. it took me a good 5 years to bench that. maybe longer.

Anyone who says they benched 315 in under a year, is lying to you. Ok, if thats the case, you should be benching over 500lbs by now, RIGHTTTTT?? I suspect not. Why is it guys who say such thing, are most likely still only benching 315lbs. Why is that. They haven’t improved since then. lol. Its quite obvious it took them a hell of alot longer than a year or 2 to bench that. just use common sense. [/quote]

^^^hater^^^everyone knows its easier to take a 135 bench to 225, 275 than it is to go from 315 to 500. 5 lbs. starts feeling like 500

listen, 10 months ago i stared working out, barely putting up 135, today im repping 275 8 times with good form( slow, controlled, elbow breaking 90, etc…) yesterday i hit 315 once perfect form and its only going higher from there. so it all depends on how bad you want it
diet= trash, im in the navy i ate all of my meals on the ship, drink your bodyweight in protein, eat plenty before bed
genetics= what?! my family is all fat and has a history of diabetes
training split=day 1-chest, shoulders, triceps day 2-back biceps day 3 -legs then repeat no days off no pain no gain
so dont let anyone tell you it cant be done, anything is possible with hard work and dedication, oh and all of this was done on deployment in the middle east where i work all day in 120+ degrees.
oh and 2 a days will be your best friend, [/quote]

worst 1st post ever.