I’ve been thinking on/struggling with this topic for a while, so when the article popped up on the main page today, I figured I’d poll the CT-crowd and see if I was alone.
With PL’ing, we all know there are milestone totals for the Big3. Maybe you want to break 500, or 1000, or 1500…whatever. We all want more.
The biggest problem that I see is the lack of any overhead work, and/or pulling work. Now, I’m not trying to suggest that we start a list of the “Big 5” or anything, but I am curious how you guys think about your totals (if you even do).
Personally, I suck at back squats (but since working with CT’s programs, I’ve brought my front squat up ~50 lbs in 5 weeks), so that’s a big portion of my “traditional total” that sucks; it’s hovering around 800 if I had to guess, which is kinda disheartening. But I’m also very shoulder and back-dominant, which isn’t reflected in that number very well. My short-term goal is to break 1000, but I also feel like Oly lifts, carries, and other movements are doing more for my look/performance than the PL lifts…so I’m conflicted.
I’m not looking for an ego-boost, but I am curious how much weight (no pun intended) you guys give the PL total in regards to your training and progress. Is it even something you think about consciously, or just another number?
If you aren’t actually performing the big 3 PL lifts then I see no reason to care about using your PL total as gauge for anything.
If you prefer Oly lifts, carries etc. to achieve that look that you are going for then record your numbers on those things and use that to gauge your progress. No reason to obsess about numbers unrelated to the way that you are training. If I’m fully invested in Nasdaq-listed stocks should I base my buy and sell decisions on the movement of the Dow or on the fundamental and technical indicators of the things I’m actually invested in?
Personally, I don’t do heavy back squats as I typically do front squats instead and I prefer Deadsquat lifts to conventional DL’s so I keep track of those numbers and decide if what I’m doing is working or not. No need to worry about some arbitrary list of exercises that you aren’t even doing.
Should your training be based on a handful of key, compound lifts? I believe so. Should you track your numbers and gauge improvement on an ongoing basis? Certainly. Do you have to use the traditional ‘big 3’? Not unless you actually compete in PL and certainly not if your goals dictate otherwise.
I’m a numbers guy, who needs to draw comparisons of performance and ranking to get conclusions, so it’s always in the back of my mind. My lifts are constantly and steadily improving, which is all that I could ever ask for. I’m certainly happy with my progress, and wasn’t trying to claim otherwise.
I know that some folks will avoid actions they’re not good at, thereby never getting better at them. Others will beat their heads against the wall, trying to move it. For me, the back squat is that wall; I know that I’ll never get better at it without practice, but I also know that I COULD make better gains in that time by front squatting. I just don’t want to feel like I’m copping out of overcoming the back squat…if that makes sense. Plus, the back squat is far more universally ranked/respected/listed than the front, so I can gauge what it means when I finally break 225/315/405, whatever. A 225 front squat isn’t the same as a 225 back squat, obviously, so I guess it makes it harder for me to “know where I stand”.
With respect to that friendly competition in the BSL forum, I’m using that mostly as motivation, and as a way to shift my focus a bit more towards strength.
But as far as personal development, I get more of what I want out of the slight incline bench than I do out of flat bench, and I’ve gotten a lot of out SGHPs and SGDLs.
Right now I’m focusing on increasing my numbers with those lifts (and back squats), and then occasionally testing where I am with the “normal” big 3 lifts. From what I’ve seen so far, my flat bench is always going to be higher than my slight incline, and my deadlift higher than my SGDL… even if I’m out of practice in those specific movement patterns.
I think of the “total” in the standard powerlifts as a useful number to track progress, and for that matter, to drive and motivate progress – and that it’s a useful number to use as a comparative for friendly competition – but I don’t see any need to spend my time training lifts that don’t give me the kind of development I want.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
With respect to that friendly competition in the BSL forum, I’m using that mostly as motivation, and as a way to shift my focus a bit more towards strength.
But as far as personal development, I get more of what I want out of the slight incline bench than I do out of flat bench, and I’ve gotten a lot of out SGHPs and SGDLs.
Right now I’m focusing on increasing my numbers with those lifts (and back squats), and then occasionally testing where I am with the “normal” big 3 lifts. From what I’ve seen so far, my flat bench is always going to be higher than my slight incline, and my deadlift higher than my SGDL… even if I’m out of practice in those specific movement patterns.
I think of the “total” in the standard powerlifts as a useful number to track progress, and for that matter, to drive and motivate progress – and that it’s a useful number to use as a comparative for friendly competition – but I don’t see any need to spend my time training lifts that don’t give me the kind of development I want.
If that makes any sense.[/quote]
Although I’m obviously training in a completely different way to you LoRez, I feel the exact same way.
My goals don’t directly involve the “big 3” at all: I’m heading in the perfect direction for my goals with my kettlebell training. BUT I do think the “big 3” are useful overall strength markers and great for friendly competition.
In the past I’ve flip-flopped between training the way I want and training the “big 3” through a sense of obligation, and as a result I’ve made poor progress in both areas. Now I’ve resolved to train the way that suits me, but to monitor progress through the “big 3” and to ensure that they stay above an acceptable threshold.
I think we are all so dedicated and dialed in we tend to make things more complicated than what they should be. Here’s a question to consider. Do you get asked your big three totals daily and how does that make you feel? Or do you get asked where do you workout? How does that make you feel? What do you want? Big lifts? Or to look like a badass?
Then it’s keep what works, the truth is in the results, results don’t lie and reject what doesn’t. I know that sounds basic, but I think keeping things simple like that sometimes keeps you from blocking your own progress and you won’t progress if you don’t fully believe in your program. Just my thoughts.
Unless you’re competing, there’s probably no reason to be obsessed with the big 3. However, they are great movements for building overall strength and size that have passed the test of time. If overall strength and size is a part of your goal, and you don’t have a particular reason not to perform them and try to push your numbers on them, there’s a good chance that hitting the big 3 hard, within reason, will benefit your training.
I personally find that heavy bench press consistently leads to shoulder problems for me, so I rarely put them in my programs and usually replace them with military press. I like what high pulls bring to my physique and explosive strength, so sometimes I replace deads with them or do both in the same program. And I’ll switch front or back squats depending on what my weakpoint is at a given time.
I really like Ben Bruno’s work, and think he knows way more about training than I do. However, I think you always need to look at the perspective of the writer and Bruno’s perspective is a guy who’s had some serious back problems. So he’s become really adept and creative in finding ways to building programs that avoid exacerbating existing back problems.
Protecting your back is valuable for anyone who wants to stay in this game for a while, but the cost benefit analysis of conventional deads and back squats, is different for everyone. Because you can build muscle in different ways doesn’t mean its optimal.
I do agree with Bruno in that non deadlift pulling tends to be underrated in some circles. Following a two to one pull to push ratio in training has been invaluable to me in getting the kind of physique I want and letting me train without pain. That said, my perspective is definitely a guy with fragile shoulders who tears up just looking at heavy weight on the flat bench at this point!
[quote]lotsi81 wrote:
Unless you’re competing, there’s probably no reason to be obsessed with the big 3. However, they are great movements for building overall strength and size that have passed the test of time. If overall strength and size is a part of your goal, and you don’t have a particular reason not to perform them and try to push your numbers on them, there’s a good chance that hitting the big 3 hard, within reason, will benefit your training.
I personally find that heavy bench press consistently leads to shoulder problems for me, so I rarely put them in my programs and usually replace them with military press. I like what high pulls bring to my physique and explosive strength, so sometimes I replace deads with them or do both in the same program. And I’ll switch front or back squats depending on what my weakpoint is at a given time.
I really like Ben Bruno’s work, and think he knows way more about training than I do. However, I think you always need to look at the perspective of the writer and Bruno’s perspective is a guy who’s had some serious back problems. So he’s become really adept and creative in finding ways to building programs that avoid exacerbating existing back problems.
Protecting your back is valuable for anyone who wants to stay in this game for a while, but the cost benefit analysis of conventional deads and back squats, is different for everyone. Because you can build muscle in different ways doesn’t mean its optimal.
I do agree with Bruno in that non deadlift pulling tends to be underrated in some circles. Following a two to one pull to push ratio in training has been invaluable to me in getting the kind of physique I want and letting me train without pain. That said, my perspective is definitely a guy with fragile shoulders who tears up just looking at heavy weight on the flat bench at this point![/quote]
Couldn’t agree with you more. I use the “idea” of the big 3 to structure my training, but i’m 6’5 with lower back issues so the dead squat replaces the deadlift. I like box and front squats more than conventional back squats… but I like the idea of progressing in something squat related to keep me focused. I love bench but it doesn’t always love me…OHP and other pressing movements take the lead at times.
The big 3 is awesome, but unless you compete (I don’t obviously) you can respect it but do what you enjoy and what works for your goals. For me it was a mental shift from isolation to full body type workouts. And Brunos articles (especially the versatile dead-squat stuff) helped me a lot.
I never got the OH press thing. In natural settings humans basically never press anything straight overhead. The most common pressing pattern in sports and daily activity is pressing with a close grip, all the joints in close to a line, and either straight horizontal or slightly inclined relative to the torso. So if you want a natural press, it would be a closegrip bench or a closegrip bench on an incline. Think of the angle you might push a heavy sled, or a car if you could put your hands anywhere.
Second I was thinking about some type of rock or log lift up to the shoulders. I think it i a natural pattern to take something off the ground and shoulder it, either on top of the chest, or on one or the other shoulder, so ideally I’d say pick up heavy stones from the gorund to one shoulder or the other. Since this isn’t most peoples idea of lifting weights, I might go to something like a high pull or a heavy swing.
So maybe closegrip incline bench, clean high pull/heavy swing, some kind of deep squat, and maybe a pullup.
I’ve used alternative big 3 and big 4 routines before. One of the best was closegrip bench, front squat, snatch grip deadlift and pullups to a bar that I could just touch the floor on tiptoes at the bottom. Another was closegrip inclines, high bar squats and high pulls to the shoulders.
I do like 1-arm leaning overhead presses because you do not compact the rotator cuff like on normal overhead presses. Taking a dumbell overhead with one arm is a good test of strength.
[quote]sput79 wrote:
I think we are all so dedicated and dialed in we tend to make things more complicated than what they should be. Here’s a question to consider. Do you get asked your big three totals daily and how does that make you feel? Or do you get asked where do you workout? How does that make you feel? What do you want? Big lifts? Or to look like a badass?
Then it’s keep what works, the truth is in the results, results don’t lie and reject what doesn’t. I know that sounds basic, but I think keeping things simple like that sometimes keeps you from blocking your own progress and you won’t progress if you don’t fully believe in your program. Just my thoughts.[/quote]
Thanks for putting that in perspective. Most of my friends outside of the gym know little to nothing about serious lifting or training. “Working out” for them is P90x, and running a 5k is far more impressive than a bench or squat PR. Such is the life of facebook-powered society now.
I don’t think I’ve ever been asked my totals, and I don’t plan on lifting competitively; I just do it for sports and personal improvement. That said, I just like to know “where I stand” in comparison to other folks who DO know something about the Iron Game, or who’s physiques I aspire to. I guess that’s where the fascination comes in.
At any rate, I’ve more or less settled on my “Big 3” being similar but different to the tradition: Front Squat, Deadlift, and Bench (flat or slight incline). I still feel like I’m missing a focus on a “pull”, either horizontal or vertical, but I guess I could swap to snatch grip deads for more back engagement.