[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
I can’t believe the bicep tendon thing is still going on.
It’s similar to the whole “high protein intake will cause your kidneys to fail.” It’s an argument based on a great misunderstanding of the subject and flawed logic.
Not only that, there are how many millions of people who have eaten shittons of protein all throughout their life and haven’t had failing kidneys. Similarly, there are tons of people who do zercher lifts who haven’t torn biceps doing them.
And just like how it’s normally the skinny fucks who don’t know shit about nutrition who’ve never actually tried eating a high protein diet, it’s the people in this thread who don’t know much about powerlifting and have never incorporated zercher lifts into their training who are saying they’re dangerous and useless.
Even if some people did even have failing kidneys after a few decades of eating a high protein diet, it’s likely it was from a preexisting condition… That’s not enough reason to dismiss a high protein diet as ineffective for everyone. Similarly, if people don’t like zerchers, it’s likely because of a preexisting injury - but again, that doesn’t mean doing zerchers are ineffective for everyone.
And seriously, what’s with people who aren’t powerlifters telling people who are powerlifters what’s too dangerous for us to do or not to do? Every rep of every set of every workout every one of us do from now until the day we die will come with some sort of potetial risk for an injury. Some lifts are riskier than others, sure, but it’s been pointed out that this one isn’t nearly as risky as some of you are making it out to be. Posterior chain is EVERYTHING in powerlifting, and if potentially risking a bicep tear (for semantics sake and the record, I still don’t think it should even be a concern) comes with the ground of performind a lift that is excellent in generating massive amounts of power in the hips, then so be it. It’s a calculatedly low risk presented by the biceps vs a huge return in posterior chain strength if you utilize them in training.
Even myself, who’s clearly advocating for the use of zerchers in training said in my very first post in this thread said I’d only use them if I were training for a strength sport. I never once said use them for “lower back development” or any of what the ‘non-advocates’ said. I never once suggested they should be doing them, I (along with pretty much everyone else in this thread who’s saying they like zerchers) said they were good for developing posterior chain strength and ‘core’ strength.
The reason prof X gets most of the flak is because of how abrasive he is, as is always the case. On the first page, he determines that looking like that 176lb kid is the result of working up to a 400lb zercher lift. It definitely does not have anything to do with the kids diet, the rest of the 90% of the work he does in the gym, or his goals - being 176 lbs is the direct result of being able to zercher 400lbs and that’s why prof X will choose to “really fucking pass.” Then when he’s ‘challenged’ (for lack of a better word insert ‘challenge accepted’ meme here lol) to do a 400lb zercher lift after he infers that a 400lb zercher lift is something everyone in the gym can do, he brushes it off with “I don’t need to.”
He then goes on and on about how he won’t do them, when no one told him to in the first place.
He catches even more flak when this ‘discussion’ eventually turns into a pissing match (as it seems to be the case fairly often with him) and then he will avoid any and every valid point that the “zercher advocates” make from now on simply by ignoring it (and acknowledging this fact, at that) but has no issue continuing on with the personal sniping and pissing match until the thread’s so far derailed and off topic that him casually mentioning how he uses the 85’s to curl is semi-relevant. His ‘support’ in the thread is a bunch of no-name posters (besides ID) who have posted no pictures, likely haven’t put up any big lifts, have claimed no experience with the lift, and felt so strongly about not doing zerchers that they wrote a whole line or two about how they’re dangerous for your biceps and dipped out never to return. These are the same posters professor X calls out on the regular during everyday training threads to provide some sort of proof of an advanced physique, and when none of them provide proof of weighing a lean 250lbs, they’re opinion is automatically invalid. He just doesn’t mind they’re here in this particular thread because they have the same stance as he does, and thus he’ll allow their presence.
Could you imagine how it would go over if one of them responded “I don’t need to” or “I don’t take pictures of my physique and post them on the internet for your entertainment” ?? I’ll tell you how it’d go over. It’d go over like a fart in church and that poster would catch the e-reaming of a lifetime from prof X.
Similarly, he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about regarding the zercher lift. In his first post, he said “[zerchers] make no sense.” When in reality, from a physics standpoint, they make perfect sense.
When you stand upright, your center of gravity is… well, centered… and you don’t have to actively engage any of your major muscle groups to stay upright. Obviously your postural muscles are at work, but you get the point.
When you add an external force that changes your center of gravity, you need to actively engage your major muscle groups to remain upright, or you’ll fall over. Ever see a punk-assed high school kid grab the handle of another kids backpack and pull straight down? The kid wearing the backpack needs to actively engage his abs, hip flexors, and quads to keep from having the back of his head slam into the ground.
Now imagine if you did the same thing, but the kid was wearing his backpack backwards (so the ‘pack’ was on his stomach). The kid would need to actively engage his entire posterior chain, lest he pick his teeth up off of the concrete after he’s regained conciousness.
When you hold a bar in front of you in the crook of your arms, gravity is pulling the bar down - and since you’re holding onto the bar - your upper body is being pulled forward (starting from the hips all the way up to your neck muscles) is being pulled forward. So, if we’re gonna invest in that whole “for every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction” idea (although, I’m not so sure I’m convinced - Newton didn’t have over 25,000 posts OR 20 inch arms) then you’ll buy into the idea that it is your entire posterior chain, starting from your hamstrings (achilles tendon, really), up to your neck muscles that is preventing you from being face down on the floor with the kid picking up his teeth.
The movement you end up with when you do a zercher lift is very similar to a good morning, but instead of the bar being placed on your back, it’s in a different position creating a completely different movement that’s just as effective as building up your posterior chain strength (and size.)
Along with that, it’s been pointed out already (I forget by who) that correctly doing zerchers are a great way to teach people to keep their ‘core’ tight, sit back and throw your knees out, all while keeping your entire back tight AND developing massive amounts of strength in your hips. When you break it down, zerchers are a hugely beneficial tool for powerlifters and can be used for tons of reasons.
If that’s not reason enough for prof X to catch flak, then this is: He’s a bodybuilder authorititavely speaking on a lift predominantly used by powerlifters, for powerlifters and dismissing them as utterly useless when he’s NEVER even tried them AND there are numerous powerlifters in this thread that claim otherwise.
It’d be like him diagnosing one of his patients with plantar fasciitis (sp?) after complaining about foot pain, then multiple orthopedists saying “well, no, it’s an elevated level of flim flam that’s causing your foot pain” and then having prof X dismiss the podiatrists opinions and using “I’m a dentist, but we both have five toes” as his credentials on why he should be the one making the diagnosis.
[/quote]
I made an account just now to tell you rrjc, that this is probably the greatest post in the history of T-Nation. Thank You.
and I don’t believe you could. as a few of us have said, the weight rests more on your forearms than anything.
