Hip Flexors for Squatting...

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]andy bumphren wrote:
http://www.olmagazine.citymax.com/page/page/1801505.htm

In this video you can see the lifter knees track way past the big toe. Seems like this is on purpose because he must have one of the best coaching staffs around and they don’t correct him.

Doesn’t have anything to do with the thread but on the thread I took the video off someone mention that this was the first of 5 sets he did and it was a light work out because he just got off a plane from China![/quote]

lol, that’s actually the video that sparked the conversation on another board (i dont remember which) about purposely adducting the hips while popping out of the hole.

42

One of the ATC’s is actually doing a study at my school re: strength of quad contraction with the adductors isometrically contracted. He has found so far that the quads contract with more force when the adductors are also contracting. This would make sense as you see him adduct his thighs and push up.

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[quote]wufwugy wrote:
Geoff Neupert wrote:
As far as the “knees over the toes” thing, that came out completely wrong–I was pinched for time. What I was thinking but unable to convey at the time was that as the knees track toward the midline of the body (adduct), in most cases if you dropped a plumbline down from the knee, it wouldn’t track much past the big toe. Of course, this is a generalization and it’s dependent on the degree of hip external rotation…but that’s another topic altogether that we could probably discuss, wouldn’t you agree, buffalokilla?

So, wufuguy, would you post another thread in say, 3-6 weeks, after you’ve implemented your aggressive flexibility work and let us know if it made a difference in your squat?

are you saying that with proper flexibility, where the knees go far enough beyond the toes, that abduction is activated enough that the knees pulling in wont happen? and one way you know this is because, generally, when squatters’ knees adduct they also aren’t tracking past the toes?

i will definately update on my squat progress. i’ll finally be able to do single leggeds without coming up on my toes. gee, that’s personal evidence right there about my inflexibility that ive known but just forgot…[/quote]

wufuguy–I don’t recognize you from behind!

In regards to this knee adduction…let’s break it down from the start, or putting it another way, from the floor where the foot makes contact.

  1. Depending on the position of the foot, pointed straight ahead or externally rotated, there may be, depending on muscular balance, greater adduction of the knees during the concentric portion of the squat, particularly at the sticking point. If the foot is externally rotated, so is the tib-fib and the femur. However, there is greater (potential) calcaneus eversion. This causes the foot to flatten (pronate) more, which in turn will cause greater recruitment under load of the adductors because with calcaneal eversion causes tib-fib internal rotation and femoral rotation, which in turn stretches the hip external rotators and the glute max. (There’s a little more to this because some consider the role of the soleus as a knee extensor–think about it.)

  2. At the knee, the extent of ADduction is caused by the strength or lack thereof of the glute max . If the knees adduct past the big toe more than about an inch, the glute max is the limiting factor in the squat. If the knees adduct AND the torso falls forward like a good morning, you now have glute max and hamstring weakness, witnessed by the knees straightening and the hips flexing.

  3. At the hip, the body is trying to use a stretch-reflex of the glute max and the external rotators to force a powerful concentric contraction via knee adduction and recruitment of the adductors. This can also be negated by tight psoas muscles which will decrease neural drive to the internal obliques, the lower fibers of the extenal oblique, and rectus abdominus, and glute max due to reciprocal inhibition. This causes an anterior pelvic tilt both in a standing position and under load, such as squatting and deadlifting. The hamstrings, will also lose strength as they are put on a permanent stretch due to the anterior tilt. (Can’t remember the physiological law pertaining to this–sorry.) This may manifest itself the same as in number 2: the knees straighten early revealing quad/ham strength imbalance as the torso falls forward completing the lift like a good morning.

So that’s the whole knee adduction thing as I see/understand it and the relation of the hip flexors, primarily the psoas. (We could also talk about the role of the sartorius on the knee and hip during squatting, but that’s for another day.) Now why it took me a whole week to spell this out succinctly I dunno. Maybe a night in the mountains with some good food (thank you Dr. DiPasquale), a little wine (mmm…Australian Chirasz…), and the company of new friends and great conversations works wonders for clearing out the cobwebs…

44

interestavo, Geoff.

im thinking about it and i still can’t figure why the soleus could be considered a knee extensor.

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I don’t see how they say the soleus can act as a knee extensor…it doesn’t cross the knee joint, therefore, it has no action there. Even the gastroc, which crosses the knee, flexes the knee…not extends.

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[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
I don’t see how they say the soleus can act as a knee extensor…it doesn’t cross the knee joint, therefore, it has no action there. Even the gastroc, which crosses the knee, flexes the knee…not extends.[/quote]

I think he was refering to functional (not balancing on an unstable surface garbage term for functional, but rather what happens when your feet are on the ground) anatomy. What a textbook says happens and what happens with the feet on the ground aren’t always the same.

Joe Defranco has stated that he believes the posterior chain contributes to aproximately 70% of the muscle responsible for your jumping ability. But if you look at an anatomy book, hamstrings are a knee flexor, so how do they contribute to the vertical jump. Things change with open vs. closed chain activities.

Looking at the soleus functionally, it does help with knee extension during the late in the mid-stance phase of walking. If the feet are not in contact with the ground however, you are correct, the soleus will in theory have no influence on knee extension.

With regards to how the soleus effects knee extension if it does not cross the knee joint, take the glutes effect on knee extension. Try standing with your knees bent 45 degrees or less and flexing your glutes. What happens, besides you making sweet love to the air? Your knees will automatically extend.

This is an example of how even though the muscle doesn’t cross a joint, it can influence the joint. If you contract your glutes while laying on your back, it does nothing to the knee, as would be suggested by any anatomy book. Some things change when your feet are on the ground.

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[quote]ckeller14 wrote:
Krollmonster wrote:
I don’t see how they say the soleus can act as a knee extensor…it doesn’t cross the knee joint, therefore, it has no action there. Even the gastroc, which crosses the knee, flexes the knee…not extends.

I think he was refering to functional (not balancing on an unstable surface garbage term for functional, but rather what happens when your feet are on the ground) anatomy. What a textbook says happens and what happens with the feet on the ground aren’t always the same.

Joe Defranco has stated that he believes the posterior chain contributes to aproximately 70% of the muscle responsible for your jumping ability. But if you look at an anatomy book, hamstrings are a knee flexor, so how do they contribute to the vertical jump. Things change with open vs. closed chain activities.

Looking at the soleus functionally, it does help with knee extension during the late in the mid-stance phase of walking. If the feet are not in contact with the ground however, you are correct, the soleus will in theory have no influence on knee extension.

With regards to how the soleus effects knee extension if it does not cross the knee joint, take the glutes effect on knee extension. Try standing with your knees bent 45 degrees or less and flexing your glutes. What happens, besides you making sweet love to the air? Your knees will automatically extend.

This is an example of how even though the muscle doesn’t cross a joint, it can influence the joint. If you contract your glutes while laying on your back, it does nothing to the knee, as would be suggested by any anatomy book. Some things change when your feet are on the ground.[/quote]

Exactly. Another way to look at this is muscles have 3 actions: stretch (eccentric), neither shorten nor stretch (isometric), and contract (concentric). (Stretch shortening cycle.) Let’s also consider that for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. If you stretch a muscle, the reaction is a contraction of that muscle (shock method).

If your foot is on the ground as in the squat, the soleus is stretched. Although it doesn’t cross the knee joint, it does attach to the tibia and the fibula and crosses the ankle joint inserting on the calcaneus. So, if the soleus contracts, then flexion at the ankle decreases as the lower leg returns to perpidicular to the floor. In order for this to occur, the knee joint also has to extend. Therefore, the soleus can be seen as a knee extensor.

Hope that helps Krollmonster.

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I must admit, this is one of the best discussions EVER here on the forums.

Thanks for the insight guys!

Stay strong
MR

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[quote]Geoff Neupert wrote:

Exactly. Another way to look at this is muscles have 3 actions: stretch (eccentric), neither shorten nor stretch (isometric), and contract (concentric). (Stretch shortening cycle.) Let’s also consider that for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. If you stretch a muscle, the reaction is a contraction of that muscle (shock method).

If your foot is on the ground as in the squat, the soleus is stretched. Although it doesn’t cross the knee joint, it does attach to the tibia and the fibula and crosses the ankle joint inserting on the calcaneus. So, if the soleus contracts, then flexion at the ankle decreases as the lower leg returns to perpidicular to the floor. In order for this to occur, the knee joint also has to extend. Therefore, the soleus can be seen as a knee extensor.

Hope that helps Krollmonster.[/quote]

Well said.

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CAn anyone recommend some assistance lifts/exercises that would help strengthen the hip flexors during the squat??

51

[quote]Geoff Neupert wrote:
So, if the soleus contracts, then flexion at the ankle decreases as the lower leg returns to perpidicular to the floor. In order for this to occur, the knee joint also has to extend. Therefore, the soleus can be seen as a knee extensor.
[/quote]

why does the knee joint hafta extend when the lower leg returns to perpendicular to the floor due to decrease in ankle flexion?

im still trying to understand this peculiar supposition???

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[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
I must admit, this is one of the best discussions EVER here on the forums.

Thanks for the insight guys!

Stay strong
MR[/quote]

here’s another http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=693473

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[quote]Ali Baba wrote:
CAn anyone recommend some assistance lifts/exercises that would help strengthen the hip flexors during the squat??[/quote]

Which hip flexors in particular are you talking about?

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[quote]wufwugy wrote:
why does the knee joint hafta extend when the lower leg returns to perpendicular to the floor due to decrease in ankle flexion?

im still trying to understand this peculiar supposition???[/quote]

If not you’ll fall on your ass. Either that or have to increase flexion of your trunk to compensate.

55

which ever are responsible for the bottom of the squat position, sorry for my lack of underststanding in this respect, I beleive this would be in the eccentric position?

56

[quote]ckeller14 wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
why does the knee joint hafta extend when the lower leg returns to perpendicular to the floor due to decrease in ankle flexion?

im still trying to understand this peculiar supposition???

If not you’ll fall on your ass. Either that or have to increase flexion of your trunk to compensate.[/quote]

or come off your heels and onto your toes. still doesn’t make sense to me how the soleus can be considered a knee extensor, but i can understand how in certain movements the soleus and quads must move at the same time…that doesn’t mean one can call the soleus a knee extensor.

57

[quote]
or come off your heels and onto your toes. still doesn’t make sense to me how the soleus can be considered a knee extensor, but i can understand how in certain movements the soleus and quads must move at the same time…that doesn’t mean one can call the soleus a knee extensor.[/quote]
I agree.

I have a question. If the soleus and quads share that relationship, would squatting in olympic lifting shoes (which have a higher heel) lend itself to an advantage in squatting due to the greater possibility of contracting the soleus on the concentric part of the rep?

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[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
I have a question. If the soleus and quads share that relationship, would squatting in olympic lifting shoes (which have a higher heel) lend itself to an advantage in squatting due to the greater possibility of contracting the soleus on the concentric part of the rep?
[/quote]
interesting question. i dont have any answer, though, i have a comment. i assume that OL shoes have a raised heel to help lifters get deeper in the catch. i also assume that the raised heel will negatively affect posterior chain recruitment. i dunno though; just speculating.

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[quote]Ali Baba wrote:
which ever are responsible for the bottom of the squat position, sorry for my lack of underststanding in this respect, I beleive this would be in the eccentric position?[/quote]

im no anatomy book, more like an anatomy stone tablet. but i think you’re thinking about the rectus femoris. IME, full squats activate the RF efficiently, but for more i’ll do isometrics a few inches out of the hole somewhere below parallel. this really get the part of my leg that i think is the rectus femoris which i think is what you’re thinking of burning.

hope this helps.

BTW, there’s no such thing as an “eccentric position.” when lifting, the eccentric is the lengthening of muscle. you’re thinking of the position once the eccentric is completed.

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[quote]wufwugy wrote:
i assume that OL shoes have a raised heel to help lifters get deeper in the catch. i also assume that the raised heel will negatively affect posterior chain recruitment. i dunno though; just speculating.[/quote]

If you have a raised heel and you increase your shin angle, you are stretching your quads right? so wouldn’t you be using more of your posterior chain. Didn’t one thread say that the post. chain is 70% of the squat? I assume that by using a heel lift like the Oly. shoe would recruit more post. chain. And since these guys have more than adequate flexibility, it wouldn’t affect their quads as much and they could recruit more glute. Thoughts???