Help! Started Gym and Test Lowered

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
1

Hi All,

I’ve been on here previously and had some bloods done. I believe I have low T with the feedback that was previously provided.

When was much younger i dabbled with anabolics (stupidly) as wasn’t too sure with what i was doing… trained with another guy who assured me that he knew wat he was doing.
Long story short, i did a course of deca and test, just 1 pin p/w, didnt seem like a big pr major course for a 6 week period, felt as if had deca dick off it… i waited a while and visited Dr whom said body would sort itself out…

I dont think it did, after getting help was advised yrs ago to do a course of test (sustanon) and did a basic PCT - shot of hcg and then nolvadex/clomid for approx a wk or so (Please note that it was a differenttime yrs ago and couldn’tjust go upto somebody and starting asking about loss of libido/deca dick/erection issues as can now) so literally did the best i could.

I now have a private medical appointment scheduled to see a urologist soon after a lot persisting with my GP. I have had low T results (well apparently low range of normal as doc says - 9.6 nmol on first test and 10.8 nmol on 2nd)

I’ve got the usual symptoms of brain fog, tiredness, no morning wood, no erections (unless days) ED, PE, achy balls at times… balls feel soft but not small… read that loss of hair on legs is a sign which i have on one leg lower down , joint pain and just tenderness and loss of strength etc… breathing issues (hearts been checked out by ecg and its fine…

I’m just worried as if low T then can cause heart issues/major issues if left untreated.

The above is what I posted quite a few months ago - Feb 2022.

I’ve been going to the gym for a few months now and have gained muscle and do feel much fitter, however had another blood test for testosterone and levels have dropped to 7.7??? How is that possible??

I’m absolutely devasted and worried sick now as that’s well low and not really sure what to do. I’ve just been advised to get on zinc piclonate and magnesium which is what I’m doing now but the only option for TRT (in UK) on NHS is Testogel which is terrible I’ve heard and the other is Nebido which has massive peaks and troughs!!

Any advice very welcome please?!

2

Hormones are hardly steady state - you could have changed your diet, or trained hard recently, or gotten a poor night of sleep, or had more stress, etc.

Your SHBG could have lowered, thus lowering your TT but increasing your fT - none of this determines much.

Yes, stop being:

If your symptoms are getting better, then you’re fine.

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3

Firstly thanks so much for getting back to me.
Yes, diet has changed, have been stressed and have been training hard at times too and sleep has definitely been affected too.:+1:t4:

I just thought that if your levels are that low you’re at serious CVD risk and the other terrible health issues too?

I guess I was expecting a boost to my TT numbers? Compared to what they was as wasn’t training at all first, and after 7 yrs now training in gym 3 days per week and getting some cardio in too, but instead of increasing they have fallen.

Im just worried as have been putting muscle on but forearms have been aching, however urologist says thats not likely to be a hormonal issue.

Ok is it best to get another bood test to see if they have increased and at what point should i worry etc? Ive been advised before that low T levels can have drastic results so was just worried due to that?

Hopefully this is just a one off then and they will increase? What is best to test for? TT and which other areas?

4

Nebido while unpopular has long flat hormone levels with minimal peaks and troughs.

You can go to Balance My Hormones in Dorset for the desirable shorter esters.

Defining “Healthy” Testosterone

Multiple peer-reviewed papers state that “testosterone deficiencies” are more prevalent and “desirable testosterone” levels in men are actually much higher than what is currently being considered as “normal” in doctors’ practices across the country. Case in point: A cross-sectional study of Swedish men ages 69 to 80 years showed the risk for premature death from any cause and the risk for suffering a major cardiovascular event were inversely correlated with the total serum testosterone concentration (i.e., the higher the testosterone levels, the lower the risk of death).

Specifically with regards to cardiovascular events, men in the highest quartile of testosterone (at or higher than 550 ng/dL) had a lower risk of cardiovascular events compared with men with lower testosterone.

More importantly, details from this study show that it did not matter if a man’s total testosterone was very low (below 340 ng/dL ) or moderately low (up to 549 ng/dL ) – all men with T levels below 549 ng/dL had a similar increased risk for suffering a cardiovascular event. Only when total testosterone exceeded 550 ng/dL did cardiovascular risk drop.

This is truly alarming, as cardiovascular disease is the No. 1 killer of men in the United States and even more – this study was published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology. These researchers documented a 30 percent reduction in cardiovascular events as well as a decrease in cerebrovascular disease incidence. Men with the highest total testosterone had a 24 percent reduced risk of transient ischemic attack or full-blown stroke. Clearly, based on this study, the only target for “healthy testosterone” is to maintain total testosterone at or above 550 ng/dL.

5

Overtraining, under eating, different time of day, etc. there are some variables here

6

@systemlord @swoops39 @Andrewgen_Receptors

Thanks mate, would you take Nebido then if it was an option on NHS in my position?

Balance My Hormones i’m guessing will have to pay through the nose and do you know what options they may have at all? Its just self -injecting is a nightmare as hate needles, so once every 3 x months sounds ideal if need to go on TRT.

Ive put muscle on so thought step in right direction. Could this low T result be due to differing variables though?
Over training, under eating etc like whats been mentioned (i don’t really have a breakfast, just a cup of tea atm until 12/1 as thought fasting in mornings may help with losing the weight that i read somewhere) and then eat from 1pm onwards quite frequently.

Been advised to have zinc piclonate and magnesium and also been trying this other test support drink before any TRT.

I’ve got testogel but didnt try (as heard its rubbish/not great results) as thought it shuts any existing test down which my urologist didnt agree with (and wanted to see if excercise/gym increases numbers) before starting TRT.

How much am I at risk with the issues you have stated with low T that im showing?

I’m having a week off gym to recover properly soon and will not be pushing it hard for rest of this week.

I know you cant give medical advice but just for your opinions, what would you guys do in my shoes please?

Thanks and much appreciated

7

And in what way do you train, briefly describe what exercises you perform, how many times a week and, sets, reps. I’m asking this question because some of the people here have said that it’s also possible that the volume is too high and the lack of recovery.

8

OK lads here goes… been doing 3x per week split into following:

Monday:
Chest/triceps -
Chest - Smith machine 4 x sets of 12 reps - last set go a little heavier (as followed a workout programme).

Dumbell press on bench x 4 sets of 12 reps

Cable rows/flys - 4 sets x 12 reps

Triceps - seated tricep dips - 4 sets x 10 reps

Rope pull down - 3 sets x 10 reps
Straight bar pull down - 3 sets x 10 reps

Wednesday:
Back/Biceps:

Deadlifts (only half ones to get movement right) - 3 sets x 10 reps
Lat pulldown - 3 x sets x 10
Close grip pulldown - 3 x sets x 10 reps
Close grip seated pull (towards you) - 3 sets x 10 reps
Straight bar pull down for lats (light movement) - 3 x 10 reps
Lat pull ups (movement from floor rising to lats) with dumbells - 3 x 10 reps

Biceps:

21’s with EZ bar - 3 sets
Hammer curls - 3 sets x 10 reps, then failure on last one and drop sets
Spider curls - 3 x sets x 10 reps
Add one more movement in till failure

Fridays:

Legs/Shoulders/Traps:

Legs (don’t go crazy with this yet)
Leg press plate - 3 x 10 reps
Leg curls (sitting up) 3 x 10 reps
Leg curls (laying down front face down) - 3 x 10 reps
Calf machine (standing) - 3 x 10 reps

Shoulders:
Smith machine press (front delt) - 3 x 10 reps
Lateral raises - 3 x 10 reps, hit failure with heavy weight drop set
Rear delt machine - 3 x 10 reps

Dumbells as above - to finish off 8 reps x 3 sets

Traps - 3 x 30 reps - shrugs
Smith machine (sometimes) shrugs - 3 x 10 reps

Cardio (only on some occasions) - treadmill incline 7 only for 10 mins after training

Could this be overtraining and why low T result now?

9

In my opinion, perfectly normal volume with this kind of distribution of muscle groups and training days, if your GOAL is to gain muscle mass. Even in the week you have more rest days than training days. Still, at this volume, it’s how you recover that matters, and it’s important that you do it really well. If you are eating a deficit and want to lose weight I think this volume is high. It doesn’t matter that you train one muscle group once a week. The Body always uses energy to recover from training. But it also depends on how much effort you put into performing the exercises. Are you having difficulty with each set? I’m not an expert and I’m expressing my personal opinion, so it would be good for others to have their say as well.

10

ED increases those risks and is a barometer for cardiovascular disease.

It’s not as bad as you think, using insulin syringes is painless.

Getting TRT through the NHS can be its own nightmare.

11

@systemlord @Andrewgen_Receptors @swoops39 @deyan

Right lads, i’m just gonna bite the bullet, ive had a chat with Urologist and hes saying that no matter what i do really the test is only likely to increase a little, and now dropped to 7.7, even if overtraining, lack of sleep or under eating, wouldn’t make a massive difference in increasing it to be high enough, so have to really look at realistic options now.
Testogel or Nebido.

He was asking firstly for me to try the gel but now is saying just go straight on injections - so im gonna get on Nebido 1 x 3 months.

I explained my issues about it starting with high amount of test and then decreases which is unlike other short esters.

So he said what they will do is check at 10/11 wks if its decreased loads, then will start topping up earlier. Hes assured me will be feeling much better after ive had it. Just need to have bloods to monitor throughout and appointments with him to talk about how symptoms are decreasing etc.

@systemlord what did you mean by TRT on NHS can be problematic? My appointments are through private medical care, its just GP will inject it so can’t see any issues?

Hopefully and he agreed that if get on this now, will avoid any medical issues we discussed @systemlord

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12

They like to use archaic protocols…

Just to clarify,

You mean that your doc will be injecting once every three months?

13

Yes this what the process is, i’m gonna ask if we can change it but cant see it happening.
Said would look at it in 10/11 wks and if dropped then do it then, which im hoping is the case

14

So this protocol is garbage, and exactly what @systemlord was talking about (feel free to correct me SL).

TBH you would be better off going out of pocket for TRT, or going UGL (meaning the less-legal route).

I can’t even plot your distribution because it’s 1x every 3 months and the plotter only goes to 1x every 8 weeks, but this is what your dosing would look like if 1x every 8 weeks…

image
image988×667 27.8 KB

I’m sure you can see the problem with this.

15

When you’re this far down the rabbit hole, it’s more than likely past the point of no return.

The NHS is notoriously bad at treating men for low-T problems. Their treatment options are about as bad as the doctors, very similar to the VA.

Your doctors comments suggest he’s not living under a rock and comes across as fairly up to date on TRT.

Gels are known to affect hematocrit and hemoglobin to a lesser degree than injections, one reason why gels are recommded first by doctors.

16

@swoops39 @systemlord @Andrewgen_Receptors

I definitely can, im trying to push to a different protocol but this is all there is for now. Might just do this and then swap to shorter esters such as enanthate or cyp @systemlord you said that BMH do this don’t they.
If it works better and less side effects ill do that.

Yes as said above if the NHS is crap then will have to go down the other route, he’s already said if levels drop then will top them up.
I’m already reading horror stories of some people results with Nebido so will look to change in future, if same result.

@ Heard can get estrogen issues/ED issues with Nebido. Which i really want to avoid. How can i ask Dr to counteract this??

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17

I’ll defer to @systemlord here. I know a good bit about Test E and C but Test U (Nebido) is out of my wheelhouse - I just know it’s long-acting and typically sub-optimally prescribed.

18

What’s the problem with the PK profile you did here? What’s the elimination half life for TU in castor oil (Nebido). What does Steroid Plotter assume?

Hiding in plain sight for those who will read.

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19

A lot of guys say they don’t feel right on Nebido, they just feel off. Some guys actually need large swings in levels to respond to therapy. Nebido doesn’t offer much control and course corrections take a lot longer than short esters.

Lower your dosage.

20

The anabolic doctor on Youtube describes it best, with Nebido isn’t going to liberate and release as regularly like it does on the shorter esters. He has seen disparities in the Total T and Free T with these long esters.

This steroid plotter shows exactly that.

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