Just want to start the information flow and not write a book right now. I have been frustrated with the squat for 2 years now after bringing my squat up to 450, deep, wide, power style, no equip. I have used Westside, Bands, doubled bands.
The main problem seems to be that I inevitably develope a dull very low back pain. If I get into a good routine, I can make quick progress, but within 4-5 workouts, the pain returns. It’s nothing unbearable, but enough to make me reflexively avoid bending over to pick up a pencil. I’m not tall (5-8) but the squat seems to be a total lower back exercise for me now.
I have tried:
light reverse hypers to restore the back.
stretching the hip flexors
strengthening the lower back and abs.
I’m really not sure if #3 is part of the problem or solution. Do I need to focus my efforts on strengthing the back and abs, or do I need to give them a break? I used to be a total quad squatter and could go straight up and down, now, I’m locked into a super tight arched back, and pushing out the belly and all.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Just want to start the information flow and not write a book right now. I have been frustrated with the squat for 2 years now after bringing my squat up to 450, deep, wide, power style, no equip. I have used Westside, Bands, doubled bands.
The main problem seems to be that I inevitably develope a dull very low back pain. If I get into a good routine, I can make quick progress, but within 4-5 workouts, the pain returns. It’s nothing unbearable, but enough to make me reflexively avoid bending over to pick up a pencil. I’m not tall (5-8) but the squat seems to be a total lower back exercise for me now.
I have tried:
light reverse hypers to restore the back.
stretching the hip flexors
strengthening the lower back and abs.
I’m really not sure if #3 is part of the problem or solution. Do I need to focus my efforts on strengthing the back and abs, or do I need to give them a break? I used to be a total quad squatter and could go straight up and down, now, I’m locked into a super tight arched back, and pushing out the belly and all. [/quote]
This might be a stupid question, but do you use a belt?
I’m very interested in the feedback you get in this thread since I have recently switched from close stance to wide stance squats and I’m experiencing the same exact lower back pain you describe.
[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but do you use a belt?
[/quote]
Yes, but loose when standing naturally. I use it as a “pressure gauge” when expanding my abs so I can focus on pushing them out hard, BUT I could max almost exactly the same without.
Would also like to know the answer to this one. I have tried different positions, wide vs narrow stance, head pointed up or down, butt pushed out, etc. But I haven’t used a weight belt. I’ve heard arguements that it disallows stabilizing muscles from doing their job. Is that wrong?
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
If I get into a good routine, I can make quick progress, but within 4-5 workouts, the pain returns.
this can be (or perhaps IS) a sign that your body deserves supercompensation (backing off).[/quote]
For example, last July I had ACL replacment and didn’t squat for 6 months. Just prior, I had squatted 450. After a 6 month layoff, I hit my previous 450 mark within less than 5 weeks, but stalled again.
I do generally train too hard, too often, but is that going to lead to chronic, dull, low back pain?
If I followed a backing off pattern based on what seems to work for me, I’d train hard for 3-4 weeks, hit a new max, and then take 6-8 weeks off! Does anyone do this?
[quote]edgecrusher wrote:
It could just be a really tight low back.[/quote]
I was about to say the same thing. You might be overarching - some will tell you there’s no such thing on a PL squat, but there definately is. You might also be leaning forward just a little too far so that the bar isn’t directly above your heel/middle of your foot, among a hundred other little things.
Easiest way to tell would be to take a short video of a couple reps and post it somewhere so a lot of people can take a look and give you feedback, and of course have a few experienced (and healthy) squatters watch.
Try wearing the belt tighter, see if it helps your back pain. I personally suck in my gut and wear the belt as tight as it will go, so do all the people I lift with, and none of us has ever experienced back pain when squatting.
I read in an article here on T-Mag (I think one of CT’s) that tight glutes/hams are part of the problem; forcing the lower back to round at the bottom of the squat.
When my own form goes hay-wire durring the squat, my body tends to turn the movement into an ultra heavy “good-morning” at the mid-range. Stay real focused the next time you perform squats. If you notice a “tension” change in your quads at the mid-range of the movement, or any point for that matter, some other part of your body is lifting the weight; obviously not what we are after here.
I’ve had trouble adding mass to the outer sweep of my thigh’s and I think is “mechanically altered” style of squatting has been part of my probelm. Lately, I place a board on the ground, raising the heels to solve my “tightness” issues(a hight of about an inch). I found that my quads were better activated as a result. When it hurts to sit down on the shitter, you know you had a good leg day.
[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Try wearing the belt tighter, see if it helps your back pain. I personally suck in my gut and wear the belt as tight as it will go, so do all the people I lift with, and none of us has ever experienced back pain when squatting.[/quote]
I don’t want to come off wrong with this question, so know that I’m not “calling you out” when I ask this: How much do you and your freinds consider to be “heavy” for squatting?
I’ve never owned a belt in 10 years that could be sinched tight enough so as to prevent all instances of pain for me. Bare in mind that I only use the belt when I am going for what I consider “hevy”. i.e. 395 for 6-8 reps.
[quote]Papa wrote:
I read in an article here on T-Mag (I think one of CT’s) that tight glutes/hams are part of the problem; forcing the lower back to round at the bottom of the squat. [/quote]
The hams and glutes connect into the lower back you might just try stretching better, and warming up a little more.
[quote]Papa wrote:
I read in an article here on T-Mag (I think one of CT’s) that tight glutes/hams are part of the problem; forcing the lower back to round at the bottom of the squat.
[/quote]
By rounding, I think you mean sort of “rolling under.” My original thinking was that it was the Psoas pulling on the exteme lower back, but I try to go real deep with the wide squats-feet about an inch from the edge of the rack and either pausing on a 11-12 inch box, or lowering just to touch it. I do think my pelvis curls under a tad, but I read that olypic lifters do this and it is not linked to injury.
One other factor is that in addition to spending 4 years on the “super tight arch” technique in the squat, I also have really worked on a big arch in the bench and I think these 2 things might just be wearing on me.
I also read that Ed Coan does not believe in the tight arch or pressing the abs against the belt, but just flexing the abs hard in a neutral back position.
Are we talking about erector tightness or hip flexor tightness?
If your pelvis is tucking under this is could be your culprit. When the pelvis tucks under the spine is going into flexion which is not the spinal position you want if you are loading your spine. It puts a tremendous amount of stress on the discs and ligaments. I’ve heard the same “olympic lifters do it…” statement and i think whoever says it has a poor knowledge of how the body works. Anyone can see that if the pelvis tucks under and the spine goes into flexion with a loaded bar on your back your asking for trouble.
[quote]Boss14 wrote:
If your pelvis is tucking under this is could be your culprit. When the pelvis tucks under the spine is going into flexion which is not the spinal position you want if you are loading your spine. It puts a tremendous amount of stress on the discs and ligaments. I’ve heard the same “olympic lifters do it…” statement and i think whoever says it has a poor knowledge of how the body works. Anyone can see that if the pelvis tucks under and the spine goes into flexion with a loaded bar on your back your asking for trouble.[/quote]
Just to be clear, I really practiced the Westside style of squatting and I just push my butt back farther and farther on the squat down to parallel, but at that last 1/2 inch I get a very slight pull forward on the pelvis, which I guess has to be tight hams. The thing is, you want your hams to be tight at the bottom of the squat right?
Is your ab/lower back work only for strength or do you train for endurance as well; i.e. high rep band g.m’s, static holds on the hyperextension, etc?
Also, how active are you outside of the weightroom?
What is your profession? Are you sitting down a lot all day then squatting heavy at night? If so maybe something as simple as going for more walks and spending even more time on flexibilty may help?
How often do you get massages, use a foam roller, etc?
[quote]Papa wrote:
cap’nsalty wrote:
Try wearing the belt tighter, see if it helps your back pain. I personally suck in my gut and wear the belt as tight as it will go, so do all the people I lift with, and none of us has ever experienced back pain when squatting.
I don’t want to come off wrong with this question, so know that I’m not “calling you out” when I ask this: How much do you and your freinds consider to be “heavy” for squatting?
I’ve never owned a belt in 10 years that could be sinched tight enough so as to prevent all instances of pain for me. Bare in mind that I only use the belt when I am going for what I consider “hevy”. i.e. 395 for 6-8 reps.[/quote]
75% of max. I’ve only experienced pain when I fuck up the form.
If you used to be a quad squatter, and didn’t get the back problem, why not just go back to doing them this way? If you’re concerned about a quad/hamstring imbalance, do glute/ham raises or RDLs to balance out the squats.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Boss14 wrote:
If your pelvis is tucking under this is could be your culprit. When the pelvis tucks under the spine is going into flexion which is not the spinal position you want if you are loading your spine. It puts a tremendous amount of stress on the discs and ligaments. I’ve heard the same “olympic lifters do it…” statement and i think whoever says it has a poor knowledge of how the body works. Anyone can see that if the pelvis tucks under and the spine goes into flexion with a loaded bar on your back your asking for trouble.
Just to be clear, I really practiced the Westside style of squatting and I just push my butt back farther and farther on the squat down to parallel, but at that last 1/2 inch I get a very slight pull forward on the pelvis, which I guess has to be tight hams. The thing is, you want your hams to be tight at the bottom of the squat right?
[/quote]
Well if your hams are tight they would pull pelvis backward not forward, so im thinking this is what you mean. This could be tight hams or tight glutes. Yes you do want tension on the ham/glutes, but you still dont want to be pulled into flexion. Watch your form and maybe raise your box height up a couple of inches.