Q: In both your “Poliquin Principles” book and the Top Seven Upper Back Exercises article, you hardly mention barbell rows. Sure, most guys don’t perform the movement correctly. But is that a reason to ignore a great exercise? Could you provide a quick primer in barbell rows just in case we get bored of chin-ups?
A: The reason that I didn’t mention barbell rows is simply because I don’t believe that they’re a great upper back exercise, even when performed correctly. Why? Because there’s too much neural drive expended in firing the muscles involved in maintaining the postural aspect of the exercise. The body and mind are in high neural gear as they’re firing the erector spinae, glutes, and hamstrings at the same time ? so much so that the level of recruitment finally left over for the lats is too minimal to be worth it.
That’s why I’d rather stick to variations of one-armed rowing exercises. I can hear the “functionalist cult” already arguing, “What about function? This a primary movement.” My answer to that is, if you did a good job in the loading parameters for the squat and deadlifting exercises, why overtrain the posterior chain?
I will throw another little tip in here that Marty Gallagher taught me, use straps, but DO NOT wrap your thumbs around the bar—the contraction in the back is incredible and it takes the arms/biceps out of the movement as much as possible. I do 1-2 sets without straps, and then 1-2 with the straps
Keith W.
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Generally good quote by pushharder with a lot of detail but one point to mention is that changing your thumb to an open or closed grip will have essentially no effect on bicep involvement, mainly because the bicep and the thumb have no relation to each other.
The same is true with using straps, your biceps do not affect your gripping strength. For the majority of people they will grip significantly less weight with an open grip then with a closed grip (imagine you had $100 bill in your hand and someone was trying to pry it open, would you use an open grip to keep your fingers closed?)
[quote]bulletproof_ wrote:
That’s from a Q&A right here on T-Nation with Charles Poliquin.
I told you…fuckers.[/quote]
Fuckers? That hurts…
Anyway, heavy barbell rowing has been a part of my back work for probably 8 years now, and my back is proably my best/strongest bodypart.
I’d have to see more than 1 coach talking about how ‘ineffective’ it is before I discount the 5 million serious lifters before me who have had it as a staple in their training, not to mention the thousand other current strength coaches who recommend them…
[quote]Bauer97 wrote:
bulletproof_ wrote:
That’s from a Q&A right here on T-Nation with Charles Poliquin.
I told you…fuckers.
Fuckers? That hurts…
Anyway, heavy barbell rowing has been a part of my back work for probably 8 years now, and my back is proably my best/strongest bodypart.
I’d have to see more than 1 coach talking about how ‘ineffective’ it is before I discount the 5 million serious lifters before me who have had it as a staple in their training, not to mention the thousand other current strength coaches who recommend them…[/quote]
Yeah, I agree. CP can say whatever the hell he wants, my results and the results of everyone I know who uses them show differently.
I do think he was talking mainly about the upper back… no sane lifter in the world would say they aren’t good for your back, let alone a world-renowned strength coach with barbell experience.
That said, they do take a lot out of me, mainly because I have to focus so much on keeping my torso at a 30-45 degree angle (I have a long torso, so parallel is beyond me), and on keeping a tight grip, which is why I use the hook-grip (that’s the thumb under the other fingers, if I’ve got my terminology right…)
For strictly bodybuilding, I’d pick the one-armed row, the T-Bar row, or cable rows over the bent-over row, though. Simply because I can focus a lot more on the target muscle.
[quote]bulletproof_ wrote:
That’s from a Q&A right here on T-Nation with Charles Poliquin.
I told you…fuckers.[/quote]
If you check out Poliquin Principles, CP actually states that Bent-Over Rows, when properly executed, are the single best exercise for overall back development.
Aside from that, he recommends bent-over rowing in several of his published routines. So don’t hurt your arm while patting yourself on your underdeveloped back.
Ive always used the barbell row as an upper back movement. If you look at the lat in the position of the row, the range of motion is pathetic, and if you increase the range of motion to where your torso is parallel to the groung you compromise your lumbar region. I keep about a 60 degree angle so there isnt to much pressure on my spine and really blast the upper back and squeeze me terres major minor and traps, range of motion and working of the actual lat will be alot better with all the pullup variations than with any row. Rows for me really hit the upper and inner thickness of the lats.
I’m going to line up on the side of those who don’t do barbell row’s. If you deadlift, squat and do pullups what’t the point of doing barbell rows?
Barbell rows extends your upper body way out over the ground and leaves your lowerback open for some serious problems, especially if you already perform squats and deadlifts.
Poliquin is right on with his example.
On the other hand if you don’t perform deads and squats on a regular basis I don’t see any problem with barbell rows. But, I do think that one arm rowing is better, meaning it hits the specific muscles better and leaves you with less chance of injury.
[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
I’m going to line up on the side of those who don’t do barbell row’s. If you deadlift, squat and do pullups what’t the point of doing barbell rows?
Barbell rows extends your upper body way out over the ground and leaves your lowerback open for some serious problems, especially if you already perform squats and deadlifts.
Poliquin is right on with his example.
On the other hand if you don’t perform deads and squats on a regular basis I don’t see any problem with barbell rows. But, I do think that one arm rowing is better, meaning it hits the specific muscles better and leaves you with less chance of injury.
Just my thoughts.[/quote]
I disagree!
Bentover barbell rows and T-bar rows are a pure back pulling exercise. chins can use alot of arms, and deads alot of legs.
T-bar rows are my favorite exercise and I wouldn’t say you can get the same results by using deads or chins. Rows make your back work just that much harder.
Barbell rows extends your upper body way out over the ground and leaves your lowerback open for some serious problems, especially if you already perform squats and deadlifts.
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Why would your lower back be vulnerable to bent-over-rows if you do squats and deadlifts?
I’d be more likely to say, but still wouldn’t, that somebody who DOESN’T do other movements that strengthen their lower back/posterior chain is more at risk for injury by suddenly bending over with a load suspended in front of them.
I’d say unless you’re being a retard and supersetting deadlifts and bent over rows, thus exposing a fatigued lower back and nervous system to the bent-over-row position, you’ll be fine.
If you do squats and deads, then your lower back should be strong and well conditioned, and therefore perfect for performing bent-over-rows, provided you give it time to recover between the different movements.
BO barbell all the way!!! You can’t deny that it will build thickness.
I agree that it can be ineffective if you don’t focus on the contraction of the muscle and this happens when you overload the bar, but if you do them right, they are blasters.
If you’re not bending ONLY at the hips, I don’t see a problem wit it.
I personally bend at my knees, ankles and hips and kind of rest my torso on my lap a little, and have my lower back slightly arched and tight.
They feel great, and they work great.
I never feel pain in my lower back from doing them, not even a little disscomfort.
Same goes for stiff-leg deads. I push my ass back, feel all the work in my hamstrings and glutes, barely any in my lower back.
How would stiff-leg deads, or deads in general be okay, but not barbell rows?
Just because a great strength coach says something, doesn’t make it true, and it may have been taken out of context. Like others have said, CP has also stated things that contradict what that other guy quoted CP saying.
He also had an article about body types and different seasons, or something weird like that. It was a nice theory, but many thought he was a little crazy with that article.
[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
I’m going to line up on the side of those who don’t do barbell row’s. If you deadlift, squat and do pullups what’t the point of doing barbell rows?
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Maybe it’s because they’re done in the opposite plane of movement to the bench press which is very commonly used. Chins are a vertical pull, not a horizontal pull. Chest supported rows are better for upper back development though IMO, while rows are still a great exercise overall.