In most people, SERM without AI makes the restart attempt almost a certainty to fail.
It’s a tricky topic, as every individual reacts in a different way. SERM without low dose AI is not advisable to the general people.
In my case it’s the opposite, I get much worse when I mix both, even very low dosage of AI once or twice a week. Gives me panick attack, a huge estrogen rebound and from this rebound I got gyno problems that I will have to fix it with tamoxifen or raloxifen.
Krands try to contact me on skype so we can share our experiments.
Serms don’t reduce e2, they’re half estrogenns themselves. Coming off them can expose the hypothalamus to the estrogenns that are in your blood from Serms and can make recovery impossible.
You need to control e2 on SERM so that there’s no rebound and stay on AI post SERM and taper AI off, that reduces e2 rebound tendencies.
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I don’t think I am thinking too much.
I think Im approaching this intelligently.
I have spent the last 3 years on TRT and wanted to be off it the entire time. For one main reason: I never bothered to actually look into the possible causes of my suddenly skydiving Testosterone levels.
Now I am fully off everything - functioning just fine - and have an opportunity to check. Its as simple as that. I never did any of this before. So it is a worthwhile effort to do so. I literally can’t fathom that any other thinking would make better sense than this.
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I think you’re making an intelligent choice now that you’re back at “ground zero”. It’s a good opportunity to attempt to identify the cause(s) of your low T to begin with. Worst case scenario you’ve learned something and will hopefully share it here. If you’re unable to draw any conclusions as to the cause(s), there’s always the option to go back to HRT/TRT.
If you didn’t notice, i indicated this after your restart attempt had been completed. I got diagnosed in January and i have spent every day in trying to find a cause, i have read 3 books on it and other hormonal functioning. Your decision to start on gel straight away was not ideal. Most go through this before going on TRT, and have more chance of finding causes rather than years after. While this shows that you are intelligent enough to try to find a cause(which you should have done earlier), you should also be intelligent enough to let it go and accept the situation as it is, AFTER looking at every possible cause. As you will see here, most cases are idiopathic in nature. Everything that i have said has been understood by you, so much for intelligence.
The whole purpose of this forum has been to educate people like you and me and try to find a cause, that’s of the utmost importance. BUT, when you have done due diligence and everything looks to be functioning properly except one thing you can only treat that particular problem. There’s a difference between educating yourself and handling situations and being consumed by possible things that could have caused it, if you are not at that stage like you said, i take that back.
If you feel fine, then there’s no point of treating the numbers now is there? Then i would recommend you to stay away from the gel or anything related to T. There would not be this forum if people didn’t have problems. But if you didn’t feel fine, this would like a person not treating diabetes but thinking over and over as to what caused it, the end result is hardly going to be good.
Also, i would appreciate if you showed more respect to the people who are contributing rather than being aggressive. You have found nothing but politeness and help here and one would expect the same in return.
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Apologies. I missed where you were trying to help me in my pursuit of digging a little deeper.
I just scrolled up and reread your first response:
“You are thinking too much and creating more problems for yourself. Just cut your losses and start TRT. Treat this as idiopathic.”
I did not feel aggressive in my response. I disagreed that I was thinking too much, creating problems for myself, or that just throwing in the towel was logical/wise advice.
You’re both a touch aggressive but both make valid points as well.
What would be yours next step?
As lab tests show, when you were on hcg T was around 550, and I would expect much higher T levels. I doubt that levels gonna be better on natural FSH/LH production.
That’s the first issue.
Second one - after restart, FSH/LH seems to be low as well. Even if you could bring this levels up a bit, T won’t be much better. For that purpose, u can check Thyroid as someone suggested.
Only thing that I can recall is DHEA-S which is precusor of T, if it’s low u could check Andrenal glend.
Overall it looks like you recovered very well for being on TRT for 3 years. PCT didn’t seem that difficult. People talk like it is HELL if you have been shutdown for over a year.
Well im glad I didn’t just throw in the towel.
I retested because I was feeling significantly better.
Total Testosterone: 475 (up from 403 a week ago)
Estradiol Sensitive: 18 (up from 15 a week ago)
Only thing I changed? I stopped using Nizoral shampoo. Orally, Nizoral can cause adrenal suppression and low T, but i was using it topically for 15 years.
Free Testosterone (Direct): 11 - [7-21]
SHBG: 41.2 - [16-56]
LH: 5.5 - [17.-8.6]
FSH: 4.0 - [1.5-12.4]
Prolactin: 10.2 - [4-15]
PSA: 0.3 - [0-4]
Hemoglobin a1c: 5.7 - [4.8-5.6] HIGH
Thyroxine T4 Free Direct: 1.22 - [0.82-1.77]
DHEA Sulfate: 179 - [102-416]
TSH: 2.7 - [0.4-4.5]
Triiodothyronine Free: 3 - [2.0-4.5]
Ferritin: 10 - [30-400] LOW
And oddly my eGFR just dropped from 93 to 81 in one week …
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krands, how are you doing now?
Have your T levels continued to rise on their own? I’m in the final stage of tapering off of Clomid, and I want to know if from your experience, it’s worth not throwing in the towel (as you put it in your last post).
@krands ? I’m just tagging you in case you didn’t see my reply to your last post in this thread.
2 months post restart. Have been feeling fine. 400’s naturally feels better than 400’s on TRT. It just feels different. But while I am not “suffering”, I am not “thriving” either. I want to thrive. My sleep is great. Energy levels are fine for an average lifestyle. Doing max weight on my sets in the gym results in 2 solid days of fatigue and sleep disturbance. Basically adrenal fatigue kicks in very quickly. I don’t like that.
Results from absolutely kicking my own ass at the gym are strangely minimal. Its like pushing a boulder uphill. It does move. But everything moves somewhat slowly. Takes 3x the effort for the same results. Libido is the same way. Recovery is about 3 days. I can perform fine but its uninspired unless I wait 3 days. Then its outstanding. So I do get there. Just like I get there with my workouts. But it takes 3x longer than everyone. And with exertion - I am always on the edge of adrenal fatigue, which is not optimal.
Still there is a strange sensation of being “better off” than if I were on TRT. Im so apprehensive to go on it because it never really felt like MY libido. It felt artificial and superficial. When my sex drive kicks in now, it feels like me. There is a much more “full”, well-rounded, whole-person sensation to it. When I was on androgel / HCG, it felt superficial. One-sided. Its almost like yes, you’re adding Testosterone, but what is still turned off? The whole factory isnt running like a well-oiled machine. You’ve just got one of the machines on, while the others which add to the experience, remain off. The result is a very unsettling, unsatisfied sex drive. It’s there, and you may get raging horny, but nothing feels like your natural libido. And even in my 400’s I can sense that.
So I really don’t know what to do.
I had a pretty blah week last week, and decided to test my levels just out of curiosity:
Total Testosterone: 411 : (348 - 1197)
Estrogen: 19 : (8 - 35)
DHT: 34 : (30 - 85)
So it has dropped. But I know I can boost it by doing strange things like increasing fat (nuts and chocolate) intake. Noticeable increases when I do that, but I can’t live life shoveling trail mix in my mouth. The test above was when i wasn’t feeling too great. So I decided to refrain from sex, eat the chocolate and nuts, sleep well, chill at the gym a bit, and get myself to my absolute horniest. Then test. This will give me my “natural upper limit” since I know my natural lower limit (above).
I have entertained the idea of getting the safest SERM (toremifene) and taking it low-dose for awhile. I have no idea if that even makes sense, as I don’t know that stimulating my LH/FSH is even the problem. But I posted here asking what I could test to find my “True Problem” and didn’t get clear replies. Plus the bloodwork would cost hundreds. So I’m kind of just sitting here in my low-mid 400’s scratching my head as to how to proceed. Im so apprehensive to just start shooting up.
When I posted a response to your thread, I was in a pit of despair, unsure of what to do. My T problems have been going on for over six years, due to a period of chronic, severe, stress, brought on by over-exercise as well as some other things. I was put on TRT (injections) as soon as I went to see my first endo, and I was on it for a little over a year and a half. I’ve been off it for eleven months, and until a week ago, I had given up all hope of ever restoring balance to my hormonal system.
Well MUCH to my surprise, after being on Clomid for a month and a half, as part of a functionality test that my new (and actually competent) endo wanted me to do, my system seems to be waking back up! As of last Wednesday, in a week, my total T has risen from the low 100s to 756 ng/dl!
The most exciting piece for me is that my LH is steadily rising, and previously, it had been practically nothing, implying that I had some idiopathic failure of the connection between my hypothalamus and my pituitary (it’s like my hypothalamus wasn’t “seeing” the nonexistent levels of T in my blood, and therefore wasn’t producing LH to correct that problem).
This means that I’m making it ALL by myself! It’s not SERM induced either, which means that I’m free!
I don’t know if this will continue, but I’m getting labs drawn this Monday, and if the trend has continued, I’m going to be beyond overjoyed.
I totally know what you mean. On TRT, it felt totally different than when my HPTA wasn’t completely f*$@#ed over, and I could produce T on my own.
I think depending on how long you were on TRT, it can take a LONG time for your body to recover and decide to start waking back up again. I remember reading that you were on for several years, and so given that it’s taken 11 months for mine to even start, I think you might just need to wait a little longer… how long have you been off TRT officially now?
You said you are still on the SERM, so any LH stimulation you are seeing is likely from the SERM. When I was still on Clomid, I didn’t even bother checking my T levels because I knew they would be higher than normal, due to the Clomid.
Clomid also has an insanely long half-life, (something like 6 days each time you take it), so that means upwards of a month or longer for the stuff to come out of your system AFTER you stop taking it. I am now 2 months post completion, and its creeping back down, which is typical for most guys who are hypo-gonadal.
But you also said:
Which implies you’re still on it, now, for a month and a half so far. So actually it is SERM induced, isn’t it?
This is likely the cause for both of us. Rather than "idiopathic failure of connection between hypothalamus and pituitary’. I think its simply adrenal fatigue. Burnout. The HPAxis is very sensitive, and its ability to power the machine can begin to fade. Any external things that burn it out faster will take a toll, and stress and over-exercising are the number one ways to do that. Whether it can rest, and regain strength again is the question. I don’t know. I was at 295 before I went on TRT, and then a restart, and now I naturally hover around 411. So something changed for the better, long term. But not enough.
Not clear why you say it has taken 11 months to start. You were suppressing it for the last 10 months on TRT. You did not start stimulating natural production until you began Clomid a month ago. And you’re not off the meds yet, so you’ll likely have to wait 1-3 months after your last clomid pill to even make an accurate assessment. Maybe longer.
No, I’m not on clomid, I stopped about a month ago. Also, I was on 1/10 of the dose I’d started on when I took my last pill (I tapered down over several weeks).
My LH while on the serm was only 1.6, just barely above the minimum it ever should be. As I tapered off it, my LH finally started to rise, and has been increasing even more rapidly in the past week, up from 3 to 4.6.
You also misunderstand about the TRT; I’ve been OFF TRT, cold turkey, for 11 months. I didn’t stop just a month ago.
Well, you are a lucky guy then. And I’m not trying to kill your buzz but I’ve read a lot of guys saying that they’re great at first, but several months down the line… It returned to baseline. One guy said you should not bother testing until you’re six months out. So please keep that in mind. I definitely found that to be the case.
I was something like two or three months out, and peaked at almost 500. But a month later I was down to 410. And that seems to be where I stay, naturally. I’m thankful it’s not 295, but 410 sucks in many ways as well. Gym knocks me out for three days, minimum. Libido takes 4 days to return. But I feel “normal” overall and not like a complete fucking mess of confusing, random issues and blood levels while on TRT or SERMS.
However I’ve now gone back on AndroGel and hCG and feel like absolute shit. It’s only been 6 days. I decided “fuck this 410 BS I want 650 once and for all. Enough is enough”.
For the most part I’m OK during the day, but there’s a general sensation of agitation, high blood pressure and I have had bad migraines for 6 days straight. Since the day I started the gel.
My sleep has gone to complete shit again. Sleep apnea has started again. I rarely get any REM. Wake up every day at 4 AM. Same problem I was having the entire time I was on various TRT for the last year or two. That’s the one thing that went back to completely normal went I was finally off of everything : my sleep. it was amazing.
Frustrated right now and annoyed.
Just read an entire thread about a guy who was in my exact position and even switching to shots did not ultimately help him. And he started right where I did also, low 400s.
Toying with the idea of long-term low-dose SERM. I have read the studies of Clomid and nolva lung cell toxicity and I’m not touching either one of them anymore. Unfortunately the alternative, which is significantly safer (I always forget the name), cost $1000 for a months supply. However I would be doing low dose, so it might be worth the investment. Probably get six months out of it, and feel a lot better about the risk. Also curious if it destroys my sleep like Clomid always did.
I’m now just one week back on the gel, and only one shot so far of 250 hCG, and the lack of REM sleep is just destroying me. For the most part fine during the day, but when you don’t get sleep, everything suffers, and I feel frantic to make the change immediately because even one more night of no sleep knocks me down even further.
Either I up the Androgel dose and see how I feel, switch to injections, or I get myself back to natural 400’s and try a low dose SERM long term.
I’ve tried to Androgel 100 times before, was always a strong responder, and never had a reaction like this. Six days of migraines and unable to sleep right off the bat. Granted this is the first time I went full-bore on the dosage. Every time I’ve done it in the past, I started off with just a dab, and tapered up. Maybe that’s the difference?
Don’t understand it. It’s possible I’m not taking enough and my estrogen and testosterone are tanking. So I guess I’ll try increasing the gel first. But the migraines and the insomnia? I feel they’ll probably just get worse.
Looks like I’m right back where I started.