Yeah, unfortunately you were right. Here we are, and despite soaring levels three weeks ago, I’m down to 245 
Go with the injections dude. Androgel is horrible shit. It makes most people feel terrible.
I think I’m going to have to go back on them too. My only hope is that in the next few decades, with the advancements in medical science, there’ll be some way to permanently and easily replace natural hormone production without the inconvenience of daily application/injections.
This has been an extremely informative thread. I’m in a similar situation to the OP - staring an HCG restart due to my T-levels crashing from a SARMs cycle and not recovering even after 3 weeks of Nolvadex.
I can totally relate to the Clomid sides ( I tried to do another Serm restart by taking 50mg Clomid/ day with20 Nolvadex. After a few days I was literally jumping out of my skin with anxiety and restlessness so I stopped and now I am doing HCG with Androgel and will attempt a restart with Nolvadex only, or maybe low dose Clomid in a few weeks. I will start a log.
Hi everyone I’m back.
I hope this sends alerts out to everyone who has contributed to this thread, because I have some weird news to share. If not, then just in case @jimgainz @jamesond @alcatraz247 @bodymark @equalo212 @hostile @KSman
So I leveled back down to about 390 testosterone levels, and then randomly decided to try DHEA. I’ve taken it before years back.
Did a lot of research. Learned that in healthy young men the body produces only about 15mg per day of the stuff, so I figured I would try 5mg per day for one week.
Tested testosterone before starting: 395
One week: 5mg DHEA daily - sublingual from Douglas Labs
Week 2: Took nothing.
Seven days AFTER finishing the DHEA - tested my testosterone: 560.
Yup. Five Hundred Sixty. From 5mg of DHEA … that I had stopped a week prior.
This got me thinking: Adrenal insufficiency. My LH and FSH are fine - but:
All my hormones are low. DHT is low. Estrogen is low. Testosterone is low.
DHEA came back in the low end as well.
So I decided to look further upstream. What comes before DHEA?
Pregnenolone. What comes before Pregnenolone?
Cholesterol. So the clear solution is to test Pregnenolone to see if it is at a normal level. If it is … then we know my conversion from Preg to DHEA is sluggish.
If Pregnenolone is low, then we know either my cholesterol intake is low, or my ability to convert it to Pregnenolone is sluggish.
Pregnenolone came back at 45. Also low-ish.
So I am currently supplementing 25mg sublingual Pregnenolone (Douglas also) daily.
The hope is that supplementing Pregnenolone will increase my DHEA a nice amount, and that will increase my Testosterone.
Will be testing my T levels in a couple weeks to see if they’re changed at all.
One thing I can tell you: When taking only 5mg DHEA I begin to develop significant “BO” after about 3 days. Clear indication that my testosterone levels have risen significantly. Thus far on Pregnenolone, I have not experienced that, but I am going to give it awhile.
Interesting dude! Looks like you’ve found a promising-looking weak spot… I hope it ends up being the thing that works for you!
As for me, after the nolvadex failed to do anything for me, I tried doing the restart protocol with Clomid. It didn’t work the first time, but after tapering off, then starting up again, and tapering off AGAIN, my LH levels started to rise, and have been sitting in the low to mid 3s ever since. I’ve made slow progress, and my total T is up to 860 ng/dcl, the highest it’s ever been for me. My bioavailable T and free T are in the green for the first time that I’ve been testing too. Overall, I’m happy with the result, but I don’t honestly think it was the restart- I was playing around with my T-3 dosage during the period of doing the various restart attempts, and I think all I needed to do was find my sweet spot for thyroid (which appears to be 75 mcg/day- 100 mcg was too much, my SHBG was really high, my bioavailable and free T was low as a result and my total T only hovered around the upper 400s, and 25 and 50 mcg was too low- I was still experiencing hypothyroid symptoms, and my T was even lower).
This is typically referred to as “pregnenolone steal”. The usual situation is from an individual being in a chronically stressed state causing the body to generate higher levels of cortisol and not enough pregnenolone.
This is why many of us talk about stress, which can be caused by more factors than lifestyle/job/kids etc. It can also be from hidden infections, undiagnosed mold in home, leaky gut, diet, food allergies, over training, starvation diets, insomnia etc.
Keep us updated.
Hostile - that’s actually really interesting. Because it explains a lot. I actually developed a disorder that was stress-related after a solid 6 months of daily fight/flight adrenaline response. Not going to go into the details but I am certain I aged myself 10 years in that 6 months with hour-by-hour fear shooting through me. For months.
That being said, does anyone have any idea why DHEA at only 5mg shot my Testosterone to 550 ?
That seems unheard of.
My Pregnenolone isn’t that low (I read a lot of guys saying theirs is at “5”, etc). Mine was 45. But I figure if I could get it to 100, that might fix everything downstream.
So as mentioned above, 5mg sublingual DHEA for 1 week raised my T levels from 390 to 550. Weird.
Also mentioned above, I can tell exactly when my T levels rise from the DHEA because I start to get “BO”. Also weird. I tried stopping and starting the DHEA and consistently, 2 days after starting again: BO.
So I started Pregnenolone on March 20. Three weeks ago. At 2 weeks I noted no BO. : ) But all week this week … week 3 … mild BO … so I am betting my T levels are rising finally. Took two weeks for the “downstream” effect to occur. (Theorizing). Also noted itchy tingly nipples, which is usually my indicator for elevated Estrogen. Some guys take E blockers while on Pregnenolone.
I will be testing my Estradiol and Testosterone on Monday.
Libido? Not too shabby. I feel a “stirring” in the boys, as opposed to total deadness. Definitely no rock star status. Interesting to note that it took awhile for the BO to kick in though.
Update:
2 solid months on 25mg Pregnenolone sublingual. Here are the changes:
Baseline Pregenenolone: 49
Pregnen 25mg for 2 months: 101
Baseline DHEA-S: 177
Pregnen DHEA-S: 181
Baseline Testosterone: 349
Pregnen Testosterone: 370
Baseline Estrogen: 16
Pregnen Estrogen: 19
Baseline LH: 7.7
Pregnen LH: 4.4
Baseline FSH: 4.6
Pregnen FSH: 3.8
After 2 months on Pregnenolone 25mg sublingual daily:
Pregnenolone levels doubled, but …
DHEA rose only by 4 points
Consequently, Testosterone rose only 21 points
Consequently, Estrogen rose only 3 points
Oddly, LH and FSH both declined.
I am a strong responder to DHEA increases. So an increase in DHEA at all, will boost my Testosterone a bit. But my experiment here to see if adding the furthest-upstream hormone (Pregnenolone) would increase all downstream hormones, did not work.
One might theorize that I the enzymes that convert Pregnenolone to DHEA are not working well for me? (17,20-lyase)
One might say: “Try higher dose Pregenenolone”. But I doubled my levels to 100. The recommended levels are “Less than 150”. So I can’t go much higher, and with the limited benefit 100 brought me, I doubt 150 would do much more.
So I am back on DHEA 5mg sublingual daily. Already on day 6 and felt that amazing/outstanding euphoria the last 4 days. I already know that 5mg daily for one week takes me from 390 to 550 testosterone levels. Going to try using it for a month minimum this time, then test.
Just wanted to update everyone.
After going back on sublingual DHEA I started to develop strange pain in my neck - and some sort of swollen glands. My salivary glands under the tongue are very irritated by DHEA as it sits in my mouth for a good hour absorbing.
I read a study or two about people who have developed benign cysts or nodules in their throat from sublingual DHEA. Really interesting. For me it seems more of an irritation.
Decided to switch to swallowing the tablets, thinking I needed to bypass the mouth altogether. I learned by doing this (and by testing and researching) that when you swallow DHEA, you increase DHEA-S levels (the longer term DHEA) but you do not increase DHEA or Testosterone levels at all. In fact it turns out that you need to increase “DHEA” levels in the blood, which is how testosterone benefits. So using oral DHEA for a couple weeks resulted in me losing all my gains.
Good learning experience.
Then I switched to topical DHEA for a few weeks thinking I could absorb it directly into the blood like sublingual. This does not work at all. I don’t know if the problem is absorption or what, but I was up to 30mg daily and after 4 weeks my testosterone levels had tanked back to 310.
In any case, now after a solid 3 months of experimenting, I am back on sublingual DHEA. As mentioned many times above, I got to 500-550 with only 5mg of this Douglas micronized sublingual tablet. So I am now doing 12.5mg in hopes to achieve and hopefully maintain 650-ish.
Douglas has a 50mg tablet also, so I may just get that and use 1/4 tablet. Hopefully get the same dose I need from a much smaller little crumb.
@krands Thank you for your posts. Tons of very useful info. I’m on a similar path now. 2 weeks into restart on hCG as of now.
Could you please update us on what’s your current protocol (you mentioned that you got back on gel and hCG, not sure if you still use them), also what about DHEA and how your current blood pane looks like along with how you feel?
What are you planning on doing for the restart? This is a 2 year old thread, so I don’t know that he’ll respond.
Scrolled through the thread but could not understand how did that restart worked out?
OP didn’t do nearly enough HCG
My plan is:
4 weeks of hCG (so far 2 weeks in)
—> after 4 weeks blood test - if I respond to hCG, testes are functional, test > 500
—> Clomid for 4 weeks
—> blood test to see LH/FSH and how my test/E2 are doing as a result
Pre-TRT situation:
Test - 330
E2 - 17
FSH - 3.4
LH - 2.4
All symptoms of low T.
Looking at Test, FSH, LH, probably secondary hypogonadism.
Was on TRT for 4 months, 100mg/week, split into 2 doses of 50mg each, no hCG, no AI.
Reasons of coming off - jumped too quick without extensive research on the root cause, want to baseline, get to normal production, learn from there and if solution isn’t found, get back on T, but with clear conscience.
Male, 34 years old.
Most other markers from the sticky blood test are in the normal range (I’ve done ~80%). Body tempts are good too - morning, afternoon, TSH is 1.04
Few thing not done before TRT - MRI (pituitary, hypothalamus), ultrasound on testes.
Really wanted to see the final outcome of that experiment that OP was running after few years - is he back on T or not, etc.
Also, if anyone has gone through the same experience as OP, please share your final outcome (after 1 year I’d say after starting restart).
This is not PCT, it is exogynous LH. When the HCG stops, the numbers will go lower than previous baseline. PCT involves stimulation of the pituitary with something like Clomid or Nolvadex, so the numbers while on it don’t indicate much. And your body temperatures are irrelevant, I wish that sticky would go away.
Regarding hCG, I believe I understand, it is to recover my testes; however, it is also an indicator that I’m primary if I don’t respond to it (test doesn’t raise), in that case Clomid is irrelevant as I will not respond to LH anyways.
In case of a positive response to hCG, I will assume I’m secondary, I will go ahead with Clomid to restart my LH/FSH production.
My question is more - what are some long term stories (year, 2, 3 after restart). I’ve seen in another thread @KSman mentioned that we might not see the long term success stories due to the fact that people feel better/ditched the idea of TRT altogether and thus, don’t have necessity to come/post here. I get that, but hopes are still that some of them lurking here in attempt to help others.
I understand that reasoning, but I don’t totally agree with it. You don’t react exactly the same to HCG as LH, and dose makes a difference. Typically HCG is good for maintaining function while on cycle, but that’s about it. Using it when you’re not on cycle is prolonging your shutdown. I’ve seen one guy involved with T clinics on here say that it’s 50-50 with restarts. I would bet it’s not. I expect for actual hypogonadism it would be closer to 20% success rate, long-term. It’s going to work while you’re on the drugs, but really what matters is what happens when you stop taking them. I think most guys just end up on TRT.
@hardartery This is an interesting perspective. How would you approach the restart/attempt to recover (protocol and process wise)? Or would you even attempt it?
It is unfortunate that there are no/very little people here telling about the long term results from TRT or from alternatives.
so are you on TRT rite now or was your restart successful ?
@nano1 im currently going through the same process as you are rite now. Im 31 I don’t know what caused my low T do you know the main cause of your situation?
I have been on TRT for 2 yrs now and am getting ready to attempt a restart now. Im starting with HCG then moving onto a serm?
I really hope this works but Ive seen people tell me don’t get my hopes up but Idk why it wouldn’t work. Its crazy I just want to be my self again