HCG / Nolvadex (changed to Clomid) Restart Attempt

Pharma TRT
42

Okay FINALLY (took over a week) got my test results back.

This represents 5 weeks on 250 IU of HCG injections every other day:

Estradiol Sensitive: 20
Total testosterone: 541

My HCG was loaded with B12 without my doctor bothering to tell me, and i was taking somewhat mega doses of b12 as part of my daily routine (another reason i dont like doctors, they literally don’t pay attention to anything), so there is some possibility I was overdosing on the b12 and my severe joint pain was from that. Its been shown to do that at doses above 2,000 per day. I had assumed it was due to tanking Estrogen, but 20 isn’t tanking at all.

At those numbers (aside from the joint pain), I was feeling pretty good. I am sure if I was doing HCG and Testosterone together, I would have been feeling like a rock star.

As of right now I am a week and a half into the 2nd phase of the restart (taking a SERM), so this seems like ancient history. I have lowered my SERM dose to 12.5mg every other day instead of 25mg. I had great libido the first week and right on queue, it stopped. My biggest concern now is sleep. Its obvious to me that Clomid is causing me sleep problems. I had suffered with waking up at 4-5am for nearly a year and it was a living nightmare. I was also on Clomid back then.

Just recently (3 months ago) I managed to finally break out of that, and get 8-9 hours of sleep. Now im back on Clomid and I am waking up at 4am. I have read reports of this happening to guys on other forums, and it lasting long after they get off the Clomid. I do not want to have another year of poor sleep. Its hell.

I have a weird theory that Clomid raises estrogen levels in tissues (brain, testes, liver, prostate) while not necessarily showing high estrogen levels on a blood test. I was reading about this somewhere. So I wonder if the elevated estrogen in the brain is the cause of this inability to stay asleep.

Maybe 0.25 of arimidex might help with tissue estrogen levels, even though blood estrogen levels show low from the Clomid? My doctor would call me nuts of course. As far as she is concerned, “Clomid is an estrogen inhibitor! You dont want to lower it even more!”

Just a random guess. Sleep definitely suffers with Clomid, and when you don’t get enough sleep, everything about your physical / health world suffers.

If this becomes something I think won’t improve on the lower dose, I will discontinue Clomid right away. Just hope I can stay on it long enough to “kickstart” my pituitary. To be honest @ksman - im not clear why this needs to be done for weeks and weeks and weeks anyways. I know via the hot flashes and hormone changes I experience that the pituitary is being fully affected by the Clomid already. So its doing its job. Wonder the benefit of just beating on it for 4-5 weeks?

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The sleep problems continue. Not sure I’m willing to continue down this road with Clomid as a result. I suffered for almost 3 years with terrible sleep, as I was experiencing what I thought was in overstimulated HP axis. Or central nervous system. Some sort of disorder that had my nervous system constantly wired.

I’m starting to wonder if Clomid stimulates the HPA axis and as a result, I’m not able to stay asleep. I definitely don’t want to go down this road again.

Strangely, my best sleep in the last three years was the 5 weeks I was on hCG. And as far as I know, that stuff shuts down the HP axis, right?

So now I’m stimulating it, and I can’t sleep. Do you think there’s some connection? @KSman

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17 days in to Clomid 12.5mg EOD.

Libido: Nonexistent. Orgasms - completely uninspired. Estrogen is low, no doubt. To be honest the part that sucks the most about this, is how long it takes. I’ve been doing this ‘process’ now for 7.5 weeks (hcg the first five weeks) and it feels like an eternity. My girlfriend isn’t enjoying it either as I keep making excuses for my uninspired performance (or total lack thereof). Keep telling her that its only a couple more weeks.

So I’m at 2.5 weeks and I wish I was done with this whole process. Sleep sucks in general - still waking up at 6am when I go to bed at midnight. Results in generalized fatigue ongoing, as I need 8 hrs minimum.

Still totally not clear on things. Clomid may get me to mid 500’s … but when I finish it, then what? If it works and I am at 500’s for eternity, I’m probably not going to feel that great. I need at least 650+ to feel like my old self. Will T go up after I stop clomid? Estrogen is shit right now, so will Estrogen rebound also, if it worked?

More importantly - once I stop - how long do I have to wait to see if it worked? I’ve heard guys online saying 3-6 months. I mean for fuck sake. 3 to 6 months of possibly slow declines back to my shitty baseline if it didn’t work? So this whole experiment could take 9 months?

Its all really confusing and I have nobody to ask these things to at all. I really wish I could just finish the clomid now, and maybe 3 weeks would be sufficient. I’ve asked @ksman a few times in this thread: if the clomid is working as per blood numbers, why do you have to keep taking it for 6+ weeks? But haven’t received a reply. I already know my numbers reflect clomid is working.

Maybe I’m just looking for a shortcut and to speed this shit up…

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I agree with a lot of what you say. If hormone levels are low now, after SERM they probably can only be lower.

hCG supports testicular function and LH/FSH–>zero
FSH is not there, but fertility is reasonably supported.
Good enough for some if their testes work well.

If E2 is low, its not from clomid. E2 is low if there is not enough FT for FT–>E2 or if AI dose is too much for given FT levels.

Injected TRT must be looking rather attractive now.

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“If hormone levels are low now, after SERM they probably can only be lower.”

Well at the recommended restart dose (12mg EOD), you really only can expect to get to 500-600. I wouldn’t say those levels are low. And if I maintain that after finishing Clomid then it would be a “success” I guess. I had tanked to 290’s before all this began. I’d love a solid 650-700 but if I land at 550 I will feel like I’ve treated my original problem.

“Injected TRT must be looking rather attractive now.”

As for Injected TRT looking good - I knew this process would suck. So I’m not wishing I was back on TRT until I see if this process worked. If I end up back at 295 after stopping Clomid, I’ll be very excited to begin sub-cue injected T and sub-cue injected hCG. My girlfriend will be very happy with that too.

I read a very logical argument online from a guy who believes you only need to do 2 weeks on a Clomid restart. His logic ironically matched mine: There’s no benefit to beating a dead horse (or in this case a revived horse) with more Clomid. Once you’ve turned shit on again, you’re on. The real test is whether you stay on after you finish it. He emphatically stated that 2 weeks was sufficient to see if you’ll respond to Clomid. I took that as my excuse (at 2.5 weeks) to discontinue Clomid. So I did.

I’m now 4 days out from my last Clomid dose and to be honest - I feel no adverse changes. Some improvements: Clomid side effects going away: The hot flashes I was getting are gone. I was getting pretty severe depression at 7pm every day (happens every time I try Clomid). That’s gone. Instead of waking up at 5-6am, I’m now waking up at 7-8am. So sleep seems to slowly be returning to normal.

Libido, sensitivity, and stamina? On Clomid I had nothing. Now I would say its improving. But I’ve heard of it improving the first week off Clomid. Its after that where you may see a decline. I did take a dose of 0.5mg Arimidex about 5 days ago, so Ill let that and the Clomid clear out of my system over the next week, before I make any real assessments.

Functional, stable and status quo for now.

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Well this has been quite a trip. Weird to say the least.

I’m now 1 week off Clomid and 3 weeks off hCG. The effects have been interesting.

Libido started rising at about day 4 … and from day 4 to 7 it has continued to rise. I also started having morning wood, though its fairly uninspired and mild. The fact that its happening at all, when I’m not even on anything, is hopefully a good sign. I try to remember that the first week of ANY change in treatments is usually the honeymoon phase though. Its week two where reality sets in. This could be rising T or it could be my Estrogen restoring.

On day 7 however I started experiencing the telltale “aggression” of (what I believe to be) high testosterone. Totally not a problem I was expecting to have. I had a couple situations today where I literally grinded my teeth with rage over something that was irritating to me. That’s something I recall while taking too much Androgel, and T levels tested in the high 800’s at the time.

The telltale low estrogen symptom of “uninspired” sex has gone away. So i know my estrogen is rising. I just have no idea how high. I therefore also have no idea if I should still be on Arimidex. Worse yet, if I were to test my Estrogen (sensitive) today, it would take a full week for results to come back, which completely irritates the shit out of me. By that time who knows if its still accurate, and what I would do about it.

My experience in the gym was strange yesterday too. I had the energy to go really hard … but about halfway through, I felt this “winded” dizziness that overtook me. If I was ever close to having a heart attack, it would’ve been then. But it felt like over-exertion, which is new for me. Its possible my restored hormones are enabling me to go hard, and my body wasn’t prepared for it. Its also very possible that my current hormone situation is causing this adverse effect from basic working out. I had to stop and rest for several minutes just to slow my pulse down and let the dizziness fade.

So anyways, 1 week post restart:

  • Libido rising noticeably (testosterone?)
  • Morning wood has returned, though only half-mast.
  • Sexual satisfaction and pleasure rising (estrogen?)
  • Feeling a lot more like my old self in general, with sense of wellbeing, etc.
  • Aggression is too high, and I don’t want that to continue (testosterone / estrogen?)
  • Dizziness and winded upon exertion.
  • Back / Arm / Shoulder acne and weird hair growth (nostrils, etc) on hCG and Clomid, fading.
  • Sleep problems - seem to be improving a little. I still wake up too early. But not 4am early.

If you haven’t guessed I pretty much vomit all my thoughts into this thread. Way too much information. Hopefully interesting for someone to read down the line though.

Next steps? If I was made of money I would run a testosterone / estradiol test on monday just to see where I’m at, with the plan to do it again in a week or two. Annoys me that results won’t be back until a full week has passed though. Not sure the usefulness of it. How are you supposed to “monitor your estradiol after coming off a SERM” like is recommended here, if the stupid LabCorp takes a full week to tell your results?

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You are noting good changes. If you wait longer, things will continue to develop. Labs done too soon may not be very useful. But I do see the need to make sure that E2 does not get adverse.

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@KSman - approaching 3 weeks post restart. Safe distance to test, or still too soon?

Possible to get a complete list of tests to (both) see how the restart worked and (also) double as a baseline set of numbers, just in case I need to take some steps to address abnormalities?

Thx.

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Bump @KSman to get list of tests

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I assume @KSman isn’t responding because he wanted me to look at the stickies for the test list :slight_smile: So i did. But I still need to know when you recommend running the tests after a restart? I see people talking about it taking upwards of 4 months to really see where you’ve leveled out at. Thoughts?

52

Was away for two weeks.

Are you feeling good? If so, let it ride.
If impatient or you want to see what is not right, 4 weeks would be good.

TT
FT
E2
LH/FSH

53

Well. At this stage I feel marginal. But I don’t feel the way Id like to feel. Libido is there, and there naturally, but recovery time is still about 3 to 4 days.

Gym is fine, but noticing reduction of muscle bulk with the same workout and slightly increased body fat with no change in diet. Hair is thinning a bit again.

I would estimate my T level to be low 400’s right now. Much better than before TRT, so definitely the restart has had some effect. So I’ll run the tests just to see. Just for fun, I’m guessing a total testosterone level of 410-440

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EDIT: Please scroll down to see results taken 2 weeks after this one. Testosterone started rising naturally.

Update: 5 weeks post restart, test results.

Wasn’t able to get Free Testosterone as it wasn’t offered as part of the panel I could afford right now.

  • Total Testosterone: 403 (348-1197)
  • Estradiol: 15 (7-42)
  • LH: 5 (2-9)
  • FSH: 4 (1-12)

Interpretation? (remember, I am a former-finasteride/propecia patient)
Recommended tests to look a little deeper?

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You do not have a good result. E2 suggests that FT is low. And FT–>DHT is poor.

So where do you want to go from here now that you can conclude that you cannot fly on your own?

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Well this would be my only chance to run tests and try to determine my “true cause”. Im not on anything, and haven’t been on anything for almost 6 weeks.

Treat me like a brand new site visitor who has unexplained hormonal problems. My LH and FSH are completely fine, but my Estrogen, Testosterone, and DHT all go low.

HTPA Dysfunction? Tests for that?
Should I check thyroid?
Should I do a full-day temperature test?

58

I think KSMan is saying that a restart is no longer an option for you. Your choices are now:

  1. SERM indefinitely
  2. HCG indefinitely
  3. Injecting T
  4. Be miserable

An AI could be part of options 1-3.

We can’t tell you the route to go, we can only give you options and help you understand.

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I know I can’t do a restart. This thread was for that, and it didn’t work. When I started TRT I had crashed to 290 testosterone. So natural 410 Testosterone actually is an improvement. Its just not amazing.

But I’d like to do some checking to see if I can determine a cause. I am in a unique position. Ground zero. Not on any treatments. And I didn’t really go through this process the first time around. So I’d like to do it now.

60

You are thinking too much on this and creating more problems for yourself. I had been doing that and that made my situation worse really. One could be mixed hypogonadal, i.e, both HPTA and Testes are not functioning optimally. If you say one or another, it would be clear. Dysfunctional testes will make an intact HPTA create alot of LH/FSH, a dysfunctional HPTA will release low LH/FSH. If you don’t respond to hCG, that could indicate that testes are not functioning optimally, any varicoceles/hydroceles?

IF testes are not functioning well and HPTA doesn’t respond to it by creating high LH/FSH, in my opinion, i’m not an expert, is that there’s varying amount of dysfunction in both.

I would advise you to cut your losses and start TRT. Overthinking this and wasting valuable youth on constantly playing situations in your head wouldn’t do anything. As long as you are healthy on other parameters, treat this as idiopathic and start retrieving QoL.

1 Like
61

Go into any of his comments and pull his usual list of bloodwork from there.

Start measuring your morning temperatures per thyroid sticky.

IMHO, it’s not that you are going to find a magic bullet, but you might find a bunch of things you need to address (as i did). If you have never had prolactin tested, you should definitely have it done.

If you have had comprehensive bloodwork in the past, post the results, your thread is light on bloodwork.

You aren’t going to like to hear this, but it sounds like you are still in denial about your situation and are grasping at straws. This is a VERY treatable condition if you have proper information. My life has done a 180 in the past few months. Get your bloodwork done, post it, get comments, but realize it’s probably going to come down to one of the previously listed options, unless you have a pituitary tumor. I wouldn’t be hoping for a tumor.

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Krands, I don’t check here too often, would you mind to add me on skype so we can talk? I’m in a similar situation but I think I can help you restart.

My skype is joocar2.

I think taking AIs with serms is a mistake and makes the restart attempt fail. But I’ll try to explain in our phone call, I don’t know if I’m breaking the forum rules by putting my skype address, please let me know.