Update: just got my results, I don’t know if it’s bad or ok.
Total TT: 47.4 nmol/l (1367 ng/dl)
SHBG: 37 nmol/l
Estradiol: 163 pmol/l (44.4pg/l)
Ht: 47.3%
Hb: 163
For reference, my estradiol was 128pmol/l before my trial. Not that big of a jump it seems. Maybe my (mild) symptoms were all mental?
On paper looks great
Forget the numbers…How do you feel?
I know a lot of guys would have symptoms with this estrogen value, especially if sensitive to estrogen. Too much testosterone can be problematic, I mean testosterone effects mood as well.
I think your levels are too high, reduce your dosage 35mg 3x per week.
Nice, I think most would feel pretty good with those levels.
I will heed your advice of lowering the dosage. Btw, I didn’t feel bad on 50mgX3 before I started overthinking it, my anxiety could be unrelated to hormones. At any rates, I prefer to start slowly and make sure the TT isn’t making me too “wired”.
There is a small change I would like to make to the 35 mgX 3 suggestion. I would like very much to add HCG. It may not sound ideal, but it’s helpful mentally to know that my testicles will not shrink to the point of no return. This is especially important considering that I’m using internet products (which may not always be available). I ve been using hcg 750 iu E3D since I stopped Cyp and I don’t have any symptoms on it
So something like that?
Test cyp 30mg X3
HCG 300 iu X 2
You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. This is your advice to him? E2 of 44 is too ‘high’? Are you nuts? He should lower his dose because of this? You want to make the guy feel worse for the next year?? @phlem if you listen to this guy you will get nowhere.
Why is this idiot even allowed to post here? How is it that he hasn’t been banned for spreading false information? Are you guys that lost that you can’t see what I’m seeing?
“@phlem if you listen to this guy you will get nowhere.”
Don’t worry, I also base my decisions on my own understanding. Lowering the dose was my conclusion as well, even before seeing systemlord post. I do not want above range TT, that can result in complications such as sleep apnea. Perhaps I will not get the full effect of TRT by lowering the dosage, but I won’t feel like shit just because my TT is 25nmol instead of 47.4.
Those wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen guys having problems at these levels. You advise everyone to shoot for very high levels and hope for the best, E2 is no consequence. I’ll bet you if he gets his TT to 800-1000 and his E2 25-35 he will be feel amazing.
If we added up how many men we help dial-in, you would lose. The OP is almost at 1400 ng/dL, he might actually feel better at 800-1000 ng/dL. I believe this high TT level might actually be the larger problem, not so much the estrogen.
I’m sorry dbossa this isn’t your Facebook group where you can ban people for not agreeing with you.
@phlem
You should only change one thing at a time, try the HCG after you dial-in your TRT protocol, otherwise you won’t know what is the result of not feeling well, the dosage reduction or the HCG.
Show me. Show me all the men you have dialed in. Please. I can sure as hell show you. I keep a file for each one.
It is nonsense advice. Nonsense.
Click on my username and you’ll see. You say you keep a file on each one, I don’t see how you could have a high degree of success with one way dbossa’s way. I wonder if all the guys you’ve help are truly dialed in.
It’s nonsense advice because you don’t agree with it, it doesn’t make it nonsense, it only makes not to your one way thinking. You said you would be more open after your break up with Nicholas and I haven’t seen this come to fruition, I get it change is difficult, but please make an effort.
As much as I dont like @dbossa as a personality and definetely like you more, in that argument I tend to agree with him. I mean most guys from all the case studies I’ve read on the forums seem to feel better at higher levels. Also for most guys e2 44 should not be high, hope for me as well. I expect my e2 to touch 50
Not saying the case here is that. Maybe he just need to follow the advice you all gave me in my log and wait for some period these levels to get an effect. Or to just need to inject every day
My friend, the range lab of total testosterone means nothing. Bear in mind it is based on a population of sick and fat people. 15-20 years ago the range was 1500ng/dl so I suggest you assume this is the real upper range, not the pathetic number they have written now.
In my lab the upper range is 802… No words. This is based on the fat English population, in my country people definetely have higher average T…
Are you basing your success on the number of days you’ve been in this forum? Being here a long time does not demonstrate any actual understanding. I can guarantee you that the number of men I got dialed in has far surpassed anything you can fathom.
You continue to give advice based on what your concept of TRT is that works for you. You are an outlier using 7mg a day. Meanwhile you’re over 35% body fat with a ton of medical ailments. Your advice wouldnt apply to 99.9% of the men in this forum and I have no idea why you continue to tell newbies what works for you.
I do not base my advice on personal experience as I am also an outlier. I base it in what has worked for 95% of the men I have worked with. When it works over and over and over again it becomes enough of a demonstration of evidence. Again, I do this for FREE.
Even your nickname leads newbies to believe that you are ‘lord of the forum’ so to speak and that they should listen to you. It cannot be further from the truth.
How many more doctors do I need to interview that discuss why they no longer measure E2 and optimize free T instead for you to realize that maybe what you’re telling people is a lie?
Estrogen is NOT responsible for any of the things you claim it does. None. Nada. Zilch. ZERO. You mention 1400 total T as if it is astronomical yet it was considered normal less than a decade ago.
It is one thing being open minded. It is another to disseminate false information as you are doing. It is demonstrably wrong.
It’s not dbossa’s way! It isn’t one way! There are several strategies. Doctors taught me this. It is their way. Go yell at them! Why are they doing so well?
Find my email address in my bio and email me. I’ll send you screenshots of thank you letters. How many should I start with? 100 and go from there? How many would it take to convince you? I know, none! Nothing will convince you because you are like a horse with blinders on. I could send you a 1000 and it wouldn’t make a difference.
Email me. By all means.
@systemlord better yet, why don’t we do a live YouTube webcast and you can debate me? You bring your evidence and I’ll bring mine?
It’s common sense that a big variety, guys with high SHBG who need a higher TT to achieve healthy FT, guy with low SHBG who don’t need a high TT level to achieve high FT levels. You have the variability in sensitivity to androgens, take me for example. I’m on one end of the spectrum, there are guys in the middle and men at the top of the spectrum.
dbossa’s way is lets jack everyone’s levels to the supraphysiological levels, dbossa is going to make the argument that edcs are blocking receptors, but if we conclude everyone has biochemical individuality, then we must conclude everyone truly is unique and everyone has their own range where they feel optimal.
I have offer the OP a chance to find out if he feels better at a lower level but still in the “high normal ranges” and I was met with a guy who would have ban me if I was apart of his Facebook group, this is the kind of person you’re dealing with, dbossa way or the highway.
You know I go by what I see here on T-Nation and excelmale, the latter extinguished your bright but short lived flame and ran you off the forum, most here on T-Nation push back on your advice and can’t stand your one way dbossa way. I know you probably mean well and think your way is the only way, but the thing is your approach comes off as arrogant and you actually push people away.
You’re combative, if someone gives advice that isn’t to your liking, you go off the rails as you did with me. I’m going to laugh my ass off if this guy comes back in 6-8 weeks and says he feels tremendously better.
Excelmale estinguished my flame? Huh? I was never kicked off Excel Male. I stopped visiting because it was beyond ridiculous. I barely visited that site to begin with and that was ages ago.
Wrong again about my views in SHBG. Let’s use ME as the outlier. SHBG of 18-20. 250mg a week only gets my free T to 28. Anything less and I have symptoms.
I’m one case that already contradicts what you are saying. I can send you at least 20 more like this by email.
SHBG is IRRELEVANT.
If daily dosing I 100% agree, the only variable is increase/decrease the dosage, it’s so easy. So no argument there, but this guy isn’t on a daily protocol, but I don’t think he will need it once TT is 800-1000 because his estrogen will be 25-35 of so I’m hoping.
I think you put too much emphasis on these studies, you need to start paying attention to what people are saying, how they feel instead of going for high numbers, there is more to this than purely the numbers, there something unquantifiable, something that can’t be expressed in numbers.
You from the getgo you have had it wrong the entire time, I told him some guys have trouble at this E2 range, but my motives had less to do with estrogen, if you had listened I told you the TT is pretty high, it was this I was focusing on. I told him excess testosterone can affect mood as well and in a negative way if in excess.
I’ll admit a lot of guys are always latching on to estrogen as the culprit for moodiness, I say that testosterone is as much as responsible for mood as well as estrogen.