GSP vs Condit

[rundymc]

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Good good Zeb, for the billionth time, SILVA SLIPPED. He was literally toying with Sonnen up to that point. Then, in their second fight, after he gained his composure, he stuffed every takedown attempt Sonnen tried. Sonnen just plain got lucky in their first fight. That’s it. Jones is taller, but their walking around weight is about the same. I personally think Silva destroys Jones. [/quote]

I think people continually overlook Anderson’s rib injury during that first Sonnen fight (and the fact that Sonnen was roiding). He said he had a rib injury, you could clearly see him pointing to his ribs talking to his corner at one point in between rounds, and Dana White even admitted a doctor told anderson not to fight due the injury, but he did anyway.

I dont know if any of you have ever had a rib injury, but how hard do you think it would be to rotate for arm bars and sweeps? I imagine pretty painful. We saw what happened to Sonnen when he fought an uninjured Silva…didnt make it out of 2 rounds.

Jones does not typically go into a fight to wrestle, he stays on the feet quite often. He did it against dangerous strikers in Rampage, Belfort, and Machida, he will stand with Anderson. Anderson will destroy Jones on the feet if the fight stays there for any significant period of time.

Another thing to consider is Jones is strongest from the clinch, and thats where he initiates most of his take downs. Anderson is also extremely strong in the clinch, and to say its a guarantee that Jones would be able to manhandle him there is severely discrediting anderson’s skills.

Anderson also utilizes a ton of lateral movement and has very fast foot work, Sonnen had some success really chasing Anderson down but Jones never does this, he plods forward slowly and carefully, stalking. IMO this could make it pretty difficult for Jones to initiate any kind of exchanges with anderson that would be favorable for him.

IMO its the toughest fight between WW, MW, and LHW for Anderson, but one that he still has a good shot at winning. I would even argue he should be a slight favorite. To trivialize everything else other than the size difference is ridiculous. [/quote]

I was a skeptic until I dislocated a rib a month and a half ago. Took me three weeks of relative inactivity to get it healed up enough to grapple hard.

It hurts, but it’s not the pain so much as it is your body being… tentative about the injury. Your torso mobility suddenly suffers, whether you’re actively protecting the injury or not, and you get sharp pains when you flex your core into certain positions.

Minor injuries to the limbs are more straight forward. If you tweak your shoulder, wrist, ankle or even your knee, you can still hit sweeps, play a tight top game etc. Injuries to the core are… trickier, I’d say.

[XanderBuilt]

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Good good Zeb, for the billionth time, SILVA SLIPPED. He was literally toying with Sonnen up to that point. Then, in their second fight, after he gained his composure, he stuffed every takedown attempt Sonnen tried. Sonnen just plain got lucky in their first fight. That’s it. Jones is taller, but their walking around weight is about the same. I personally think Silva destroys Jones. [/quote]

I think people continually overlook Anderson’s rib injury during that first Sonnen fight (and the fact that Sonnen was roiding). He said he had a rib injury, you could clearly see him pointing to his ribs talking to his corner at one point in between rounds, and Dana White even admitted a doctor told anderson not to fight due the injury, but he did anyway.

I dont know if any of you have ever had a rib injury, but how hard do you think it would be to rotate for arm bars and sweeps? I imagine pretty painful. We saw what happened to Sonnen when he fought an uninjured Silva…didnt make it out of 2 rounds.

Jones does not typically go into a fight to wrestle, he stays on the feet quite often. He did it against dangerous strikers in Rampage, Belfort, and Machida, he will stand with Anderson. Anderson will destroy Jones on the feet if the fight stays there for any significant period of time.

Another thing to consider is Jones is strongest from the clinch, and thats where he initiates most of his take downs. Anderson is also extremely strong in the clinch, and to say its a guarantee that Jones would be able to manhandle him there is severely discrediting anderson’s skills.

Anderson also utilizes a ton of lateral movement and has very fast foot work, Sonnen had some success really chasing Anderson down but Jones never does this, he plods forward slowly and carefully, stalking. IMO this could make it pretty difficult for Jones to initiate any kind of exchanges with anderson that would be favorable for him.

IMO its the toughest fight between WW, MW, and LHW for Anderson, but one that he still has a good shot at winning. I would even argue he should be a slight favorite. To trivialize everything else other than the size difference is ridiculous. [/quote]

I was a skeptic until I dislocated a rib a month and a half ago. Took me three weeks of relative inactivity to get it healed up enough to grapple hard.

It hurts, but it’s not the pain so much as it is your body being… tentative about the injury. Your torso mobility suddenly suffers, whether you’re actively protecting the injury or not, and you get sharp pains when you flex your core into certain positions.

Minor injuries to the limbs are more straight forward. If you tweak your shoulder, wrist, ankle or even your knee, you can still hit sweeps, play a tight top game etc. Injuries to the core are… trickier, I’d say.[/quote]

How did it happen btw specifically?

[Khaine]

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
3. If you are claiming that Sonnen’s wrestling and ground game is superior to Jones in that area you are too far gone for me to change your mind on a message board. I would only ask you to take another look at both fighters in their last dozen fights or so. Jones is on another planet skill wise as compared to Sonnen.[/quote]

This. I mean, Sonnen couldn’t take down Bisping. Jones takes down everybody. At will. In the next weight class. And let’s not even talk about the damage from top control. Not maintaining top control, but causing actual damage.

Their skill sets are miles apart. And that’s not even considering Jones’ uniqe physical attributes.[/quote]

I think Rampage and Rashad would debate that Jones takes “everybody” down at will.

And Sonnen did take Bisping down. Maybe not “at will” but he sure as hell did.

You say that like Bispsing doesnt have good TDD, which he certainly does. [/quote]

Both those guys ended up on the ground, one of them didn’t get back up. Doubt Rampage would debate anything, his words post-fight taken into account. Jones has the highest TD success rate in the LHW division. As far as anybody in that division can take people down at will, he’s doing it.

Bisping prevents about 2 out of 3 in his career, which is pretty good. If Chael is such a takedown machine, his success rate should be higher. It wasn’t.

Silva has excellent TDD (about 70%), but let’s not pretend he’s not at a disadvantage here.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Jones does not typically go into a fight to wrestle, he stays on the feet quite often. He did it against dangerous strikers in Rampage, Belfort, and Machida, he will stand with Anderson.[/quote]

Pretty sure he goes into fights to win. If he needs the takedown, he’ll go for it, as evidenced by the fact that he’s taken people down in every fight he’s ever had. The fact that he chooses to stay on his feet obviously doesn’t mean he can’t take people down.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Anderson will destroy Jones on the feet if the fight stays there for any significant period of time. [/quote]

You don’t feel the need to qualify that statement at all?

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Another thing to consider is Jones is strongest from the clinch, and thats where he initiates most of his take downs. Anderson is also extremely strong in the clinch, and to say its a guarantee that Jones would be able to manhandle him there is severely discrediting anderson’s skills. [/quote]

This is a valid point. It is likely that any takedown in this fight comes from the clinch. It is also a fact that Jones has ragdolled experienced wrestlers that outweigh Anderson 20-30lbs in the clinch. Could go either way of course, but I know where I’d put my money.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Anderson also utilizes a ton of lateral movement and has very fast foot work, Sonnen had some success really chasing Anderson down but Jones never does this, he plods forward slowly and carefully, stalking. IMO this could make it pretty difficult for Jones to initiate any kind of exchanges with anderson that would be favorable for him. [/quote]

Sure, he has great movement. Excellent movement. So he’ll be able to stay away from Jones. The problem is that he needs to get inside that 8 inch reach disadvantage to do anything himself. Anderson is usually the guy with the reach advantage and can wait for opponents to charge within striking distance before countering the fuck out of them. Jones doesn’t have to do that.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
IMO its the toughest fight between WW, MW, and LHW for Anderson, but one that he still has a good shot at winning. I would even argue he should be a slight favorite. To trivialize everything else other than the size difference is ridiculous. [/quote]

Definitely the toughest fight available to him. Pretending the size difference isn’t a MASSIVE deal is ridiculous. It turns everything on it’s head.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]DN90 wrote:
I honestly just think Silva-Jones is a better fight, because Silva has a better chance of beating Jones than GSP does of beating Silva.

Jones has shown he can be susceptible to submission on the ground, and Lyoto caught him standing up in the first round. I think Anderson has a chance to make him pay when he does some wild move like he’s prone to do. [/quote]

I pretty much agree with this.

2 years ago i wanted to see Silva vs GSP just to see Silva disappoint all the GSP nuthuggers, but nowadays it seems the general consensus is that this is a bad fight for GSP. It almost seems unfair to me to see this fight happen now, IMO its GSP being fed to the wolves. This is not the case if Silva fights Jones, as Silva poses a very serious threat to Jones stylistically.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Good good Zeb, for the billionth time, SILVA SLIPPED. He was literally toying with Sonnen up to that point. Then, in their second fight, after he gained his composure, he stuffed every takedown attempt Sonnen tried. Sonnen just plain got lucky in their first fight. That’s it. Jones is taller, but their walking around weight is about the same. I personally think Silva destroys Jones. [/quote]

I think people continually overlook Anderson’s rib injury during that first Sonnen fight (and the fact that Sonnen was roiding). He said he had a rib injury, you could clearly see him pointing to his ribs talking to his corner at one point in between rounds, and Dana White even admitted a doctor told anderson not to fight due the injury, but he did anyway.

I dont know if any of you have ever had a rib injury, but how hard do you think it would be to rotate for arm bars and sweeps? I imagine pretty painful. We saw what happened to Sonnen when he fought an uninjured Silva…didnt make it out of 2 rounds.

Jones does not typically go into a fight to wrestle, he stays on the feet quite often. He did it against dangerous strikers in Rampage, Belfort, and Machida, he will stand with Anderson. Anderson will destroy Jones on the feet if the fight stays there for any significant period of time.

Another thing to consider is Jones is strongest from the clinch, and thats where he initiates most of his take downs. Anderson is also extremely strong in the clinch, and to say its a guarantee that Jones would be able to manhandle him there is severely discrediting anderson’s skills.

Anderson also utilizes a ton of lateral movement and has very fast foot work, Sonnen had some success really chasing Anderson down but Jones never does this, he plods forward slowly and carefully, stalking. IMO this could make it pretty difficult for Jones to initiate any kind of exchanges with anderson that would be favorable for him.

IMO its the toughest fight between WW, MW, and LHW for Anderson, but one that he still has a good shot at winning. I would even argue he should be a slight favorite. To trivialize everything else other than the size difference is ridiculous. [/quote]

I was a skeptic until I dislocated a rib a month and a half ago. Took me three weeks of relative inactivity to get it healed up enough to grapple hard.

It hurts, but it’s not the pain so much as it is your body being… tentative about the injury. Your torso mobility suddenly suffers, whether you’re actively protecting the injury or not, and you get sharp pains when you flex your core into certain positions.

Minor injuries to the limbs are more straight forward. If you tweak your shoulder, wrist, ankle or even your knee, you can still hit sweeps, play a tight top game etc. Injuries to the core are… trickier, I’d say.[/quote]

Exactly, when you injure a limb, its easy to favor one side over the other to compensate for the injury. However rib injuries can be much like back injuries, where it affects all mobility and can be quite debilitating.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
3. If you are claiming that Sonnen’s wrestling and ground game is superior to Jones in that area you are too far gone for me to change your mind on a message board. I would only ask you to take another look at both fighters in their last dozen fights or so. Jones is on another planet skill wise as compared to Sonnen.[/quote]

This. I mean, Sonnen couldn’t take down Bisping. Jones takes down everybody. At will. In the next weight class. And let’s not even talk about the damage from top control. Not maintaining top control, but causing actual damage.

Their skill sets are miles apart. And that’s not even considering Jones’ uniqe physical attributes.[/quote]

I think Rampage and Rashad would debate that Jones takes “everybody” down at will.

And Sonnen did take Bisping down. Maybe not “at will” but he sure as hell did.

You say that like Bispsing doesnt have good TDD, which he certainly does. [/quote]

Both those guys ended up on the ground, one of them didn’t get back up. Doubt Rampage would debate anything, his words post-fight taken into account. Jones has the highest TD success rate in the LHW division. As far as anybody in that division can take people down at will, he’s doing it.

Bisping prevents about 2 out of 3 in his career, which is pretty good. If Chael is such a takedown machine, his success rate should be higher. It wasn’t.

Silva has excellent TDD (about 70%), but let’s not pretend he’s not at a disadvantage here.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Jones does not typically go into a fight to wrestle, he stays on the feet quite often. He did it against dangerous strikers in Rampage, Belfort, and Machida, he will stand with Anderson.[/quote]

Pretty sure he goes into fights to win. If he needs the takedown, he’ll go for it, as evidenced by the fact that he’s taken people down in every fight he’s ever had. The fact that he chooses to stay on his feet obviously doesn’t mean he can’t take people down.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Anderson will destroy Jones on the feet if the fight stays there for any significant period of time. [/quote]

You don’t feel the need to qualify that statement at all?

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Another thing to consider is Jones is strongest from the clinch, and thats where he initiates most of his take downs. Anderson is also extremely strong in the clinch, and to say its a guarantee that Jones would be able to manhandle him there is severely discrediting anderson’s skills. [/quote]

This is a valid point. It is likely that any takedown in this fight comes from the clinch. It is also a fact that Jones has ragdolled experienced wrestlers that outweigh Anderson 20-30lbs in the clinch. Could go either way of course, but I know where I’d put my money.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Anderson also utilizes a ton of lateral movement and has very fast foot work, Sonnen had some success really chasing Anderson down but Jones never does this, he plods forward slowly and carefully, stalking. IMO this could make it pretty difficult for Jones to initiate any kind of exchanges with anderson that would be favorable for him. [/quote]

Sure, he has great movement. Excellent movement. So he’ll be able to stay away from Jones. The problem is that he needs to get inside that 8 inch reach disadvantage to do anything himself. Anderson is usually the guy with the reach advantage and can wait for opponents to charge within striking distance before countering the fuck out of them. Jones doesn’t have to do that.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
IMO its the toughest fight between WW, MW, and LHW for Anderson, but one that he still has a good shot at winning. I would even argue he should be a slight favorite. To trivialize everything else other than the size difference is ridiculous. [/quote]

Definitely the toughest fight available to him. Pretending the size difference isn’t a MASSIVE deal is ridiculous. It turns everything on it’s head.[/quote]

Think you need to look up the definition of “at will.”

Also, Anderson Silva’s take down defense rate is 81%, one of the best in the UFC.

Who says Anderson will have trouble with the reach? Yes, hes never faced anyone with that type of size but that also means weve never seen him struggle with someone bigger than him. He trains with JDS, im sure hes used to big guys. And Jones is not fast enough or powerful enough to overcome andersons lateral movement and head movement.

I never said Jones wouldnt try to take anderson down, and of course Jones goes out there to win. But that didnt stop him from testing the waters with other great strikers like machida, shogun and rampage, and i have no reason to believe anderson wont have some time to work on the feet.

Anderson has had 2 fights where his take down defense looked bad and people just wont let him forget it. Not to mention in both fights he was not 100% (rib injury in first sonnen fight, knee surgery shortly before lutter fight). You argue as if its preposterous for me to believe this fight isnt a sealed deal for Jones, well i think its preposterous that people cant believe that i would argue anderson has a good shot.

Ive never said anderson silva was gonna win or that this was an easy fight, but he has the tools to do it, and there are too many variables between these 2 guys to say that one or the other is a clear favorite IMO.

[Khaine]

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Think you need to look up the definition of “at will.”

Also, Anderson Silva’s take down defense rate is 81%, one of the best in the UFC.

Who says Anderson will have trouble with the reach? Yes, hes never faced anyone with that type of size but that also means weve never seen him struggle with someone bigger than him. He trains with JDS, im sure hes used to big guys. And Jones is not fast enough or powerful enough to overcome andersons lateral movement and head movement.

I never said Jones wouldnt try to take anderson down, and of course Jones goes out there to win. But that didnt stop him from testing the waters with other great strikers like machida, shogun and rampage, and i have no reason to believe anderson wont have some time to work on the feet.

Anderson has had 2 fights where his take down defense looked bad and people just wont let him forget it. Not to mention in both fights he was not 100% (rib injury in first sonnen fight, knee surgery shortly before lutter fight). You argue as if its preposterous for me to believe this fight isnt a sealed deal for Jones, well i think its preposterous that people cant believe that i would argue anderson has a good shot.

Ive never said anderson silva was gonna win or that this was an easy fight, but he has the tools to do it, and there are too many variables between these 2 guys to say that one or the other is a clear favorite IMO. [/quote]

Don’t know where you’re getting your stats, but fightmetric has him at 70%, which is great, but not sensational (roughly the same as Bisping, incidentally).

He’s never faced that reach. Period. Which means he’s going to have to deal with a brand new challenge. We’ve yet to see how he’ll handle that, however sure you are he’s “used to big guys”. I think he’ll have a bitch of a time landing anything on Jones, because his regular approach won’t be applicable and he’ll have to do some major adapting.

I agree, there will be standup. This is obvious, as the fight starts that way, and I’m not convinced Silva will frustrate Jones enough that he’ll take it to the ground.

Wouldn’t say Anderson’s TDD has ever looked bad. It doesn’t have to for Jones to take him down either. Too big, too strong, too good Greco. IMO.

Obviously, you’re putting words in my mouth, as I’ve never said preposterous anything anywhere. Nice strawman though. Thumbs up. I feel Jones is the favourite here, that’s all. Doubt it’ll be easy either, but as fantastic as Silva is, he’s not 205 champ for a couple of reasons, size being one of them. And Jones has cleaned out that division. Without losing a round. Having been in actual danger for about 20 seconds. Once. Anderson has a shot, of course, but it’s not a big one, IMO.

When Jones decides to fill out his frame and move up to HW, that’s when I think he’ll find his next serious challenge.

[ZEB]

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Zeb, in a catchweight fight, GSP and Silva will be physically very evenly matched.

On the other hand, Jones peobably wouldn’t cut a lot (more) if he and Silva faced each other, if he’d cut at all. But even then, he’s at a stylistic advantage. He beats Silva from the outside, who’s great at countering sloppy guys with a reach more or less his own.
Apart from his general genius, Silva DOES have a big physical disadvantage against Jones, while Bonnar and Griffin were ideal for him with their wild style.[/quote]

And Silva has a big physical advantage against GSP. GSP is 5’ 10" to Silva’s 6’ 2". Giving away 4 inches in height would put GSP at a distinct disadvantage. While they can meet at a catch weight, as you suggest, that doesn’t change the fact that GSP has to move up. I don’t think that’s ever going to work for GSP (or most anyone else as I’ve explained). If I were him I’d say "sure I’ll fight Silva all he has to do is make 170 pounds.

[Aussie_Davo]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Zeb, in a catchweight fight, GSP and Silva will be physically very evenly matched.

On the other hand, Jones peobably wouldn’t cut a lot (more) if he and Silva faced each other, if he’d cut at all. But even then, he’s at a stylistic advantage. He beats Silva from the outside, who’s great at countering sloppy guys with a reach more or less his own.
Apart from his general genius, Silva DOES have a big physical disadvantage against Jones, while Bonnar and Griffin were ideal for him with their wild style.[/quote]

And Silva has a big physical disadvantage against GSP. GSP is 5’ 10" to Silva’s 6’ 2". Giving away 4 inches in height would put GSP at a distinct disadvantage. While they can meet at a catch weight, as you suggest, that doesn’t change the fact that GSP has to move up. I don’t think that’s ever going to work for GSP (or most anyone else as I’ve explained). If I were him I’d say "sure I’ll fight Silva all he has to do is make 170 pounds.

[/quote]

EDIT: fuck me nevermind, I misread what you said

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Think you need to look up the definition of “at will.”

Also, Anderson Silva’s take down defense rate is 81%, one of the best in the UFC.

Who says Anderson will have trouble with the reach? Yes, hes never faced anyone with that type of size but that also means weve never seen him struggle with someone bigger than him. He trains with JDS, im sure hes used to big guys. And Jones is not fast enough or powerful enough to overcome andersons lateral movement and head movement.

I never said Jones wouldnt try to take anderson down, and of course Jones goes out there to win. But that didnt stop him from testing the waters with other great strikers like machida, shogun and rampage, and i have no reason to believe anderson wont have some time to work on the feet.

Anderson has had 2 fights where his take down defense looked bad and people just wont let him forget it. Not to mention in both fights he was not 100% (rib injury in first sonnen fight, knee surgery shortly before lutter fight). You argue as if its preposterous for me to believe this fight isnt a sealed deal for Jones, well i think its preposterous that people cant believe that i would argue anderson has a good shot.

Ive never said anderson silva was gonna win or that this was an easy fight, but he has the tools to do it, and there are too many variables between these 2 guys to say that one or the other is a clear favorite IMO. [/quote]

Don’t know where you’re getting your stats, but fightmetric has him at 70%, which is great, but not sensational (roughly the same as Bisping, incidentally).

He’s never faced that reach. Period. Which means he’s going to have to deal with a brand new challenge. We’ve yet to see how he’ll handle that, however sure you are he’s “used to big guys”. I think he’ll have a bitch of a time landing anything on Jones, because his regular approach won’t be applicable and he’ll have to do some major adapting.

I agree, there will be standup. This is obvious, as the fight starts that way, and I’m not convinced Silva will frustrate Jones enough that he’ll take it to the ground.

Wouldn’t say Anderson’s TDD has ever looked bad. It doesn’t have to for Jones to take him down either. Too big, too strong, too good Greco. IMO.

Obviously, you’re putting words in my mouth, as I’ve never said preposterous anything anywhere. Nice strawman though. Thumbs up. I feel Jones is the favourite here, that’s all. Doubt it’ll be easy either, but as fantastic as Silva is, he’s not 205 champ for a couple of reasons, size being one of them. And Jones has cleaned out that division. Without losing a round. Having been in actual danger for about 20 seconds. Once. Anderson has a shot, of course, but it’s not a big one, IMO.

When Jones decides to fill out his frame and move up to HW, that’s when I think he’ll find his next serious challenge. [/quote]

If Machida connected, Silva will connect. Silva is more dynamic, accurate, and tricky than any striker Jones has faced, i would be shocked if Jones didnt eat shots. He did against Machida, and Anderson is rangier and more powerful than Machida is.

I guess at this rate we will have to just wait and see, should this fight ever take place.

[rundymc]

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

How did it happen btw specifically?[/quote]

Went three rounds, back to back, against a lightweight, a heavyweight that went easy, and a heavyweight that went hard. The one that went hard, took my back. I tried my usual escape, he countered, I found my torso extended and flexed to the right… I kept flexing, and one of the left ribs popped.

Wouldn’t have happened if I gave my body time to rest. It was stupid and I deserved it.

[zecarlo]

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Think you need to look up the definition of “at will.”

Also, Anderson Silva’s take down defense rate is 81%, one of the best in the UFC.

Who says Anderson will have trouble with the reach? Yes, hes never faced anyone with that type of size but that also means weve never seen him struggle with someone bigger than him. He trains with JDS, im sure hes used to big guys. And Jones is not fast enough or powerful enough to overcome andersons lateral movement and head movement.

I never said Jones wouldnt try to take anderson down, and of course Jones goes out there to win. But that didnt stop him from testing the waters with other great strikers like machida, shogun and rampage, and i have no reason to believe anderson wont have some time to work on the feet.

Anderson has had 2 fights where his take down defense looked bad and people just wont let him forget it. Not to mention in both fights he was not 100% (rib injury in first sonnen fight, knee surgery shortly before lutter fight). You argue as if its preposterous for me to believe this fight isnt a sealed deal for Jones, well i think its preposterous that people cant believe that i would argue anderson has a good shot.

Ive never said anderson silva was gonna win or that this was an easy fight, but he has the tools to do it, and there are too many variables between these 2 guys to say that one or the other is a clear favorite IMO. [/quote]

Don’t know where you’re getting your stats, but fightmetric has him at 70%, which is great, but not sensational (roughly the same as Bisping, incidentally).

He’s never faced that reach. Period. Which means he’s going to have to deal with a brand new challenge. We’ve yet to see how he’ll handle that, however sure you are he’s “used to big guys”. I think he’ll have a bitch of a time landing anything on Jones, because his regular approach won’t be applicable and he’ll have to do some major adapting.

I agree, there will be standup. This is obvious, as the fight starts that way, and I’m not convinced Silva will frustrate Jones enough that he’ll take it to the ground.

Wouldn’t say Anderson’s TDD has ever looked bad. It doesn’t have to for Jones to take him down either. Too big, too strong, too good Greco. IMO.

Obviously, you’re putting words in my mouth, as I’ve never said preposterous anything anywhere. Nice strawman though. Thumbs up. I feel Jones is the favourite here, that’s all. Doubt it’ll be easy either, but as fantastic as Silva is, he’s not 205 champ for a couple of reasons, size being one of them. And Jones has cleaned out that division. Without losing a round. Having been in actual danger for about 20 seconds. Once. Anderson has a shot, of course, but it’s not a big one, IMO.

When Jones decides to fill out his frame and move up to HW, that’s when I think he’ll find his next serious challenge. [/quote]

Jones has lost a round before. Silva never held the 205 belt because he didn’t want to, for whatever reason, not because he couldn’t have. When he came into the UFC QJ and then Forrest were 205 champions, two fighters he could/would have beaten at that time (and he did eventually beat Griffin, casually). Other notable 205ers are Machida and Shogun, two fighters he would probably beat as well.

Reach? Why is everyone hooked on a stat that by itself is meaningless? Jones is not Ali-esque standing. He’s not even Cooney-esque. The gap in skill standing is huge.

[Khaine]

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
If Machida connected, Silva will connect. Silva is more dynamic, accurate, and tricky than any striker Jones has faced, i would be shocked if Jones didnt eat shots. He did against Machida, and Anderson is rangier and more powerful than Machida is.

I guess at this rate we will have to just wait and see, should this fight ever take place. [/quote]

Yeah, he probably will. A couple, at least. Silva is going to have to adapt his striking though, because I don’t see hanging back and countering working out against Jones. More aggression and explosion is neccessary.

Oh yeah, I’m hoping we do get to see this fight. This is obviously all just speculation until then.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Jones has lost a round before. Silva never held the 205 belt because he didn’t want to, for whatever reason, not because he couldn’t have. When he came into the UFC QJ and then Forrest were 205 champions, two fighters he could/would have beaten at that time (and he did eventually beat Griffin, casually). Other notable 205ers are Machida and Shogun, two fighters he would probably beat as well.

Reach? Why is everyone hooked on a stat that by itself is meaningless? Jones is not Ali-esque standing. He’s not even Cooney-esque. The gap in skill standing is huge. [/quote]

Which round did he lose? Possibly the 1st in the Machida fight? I’d disagree, but that’s the only one I can think of that’s particularly close. Do tell though.

Haha yes, he didn’t want to. For whatever reason. Of course. Silly of me to suggest he might just find a division with bigger fighters more of a challenge. Fact of the matter is that he cleaned out the 185 years ago and has never made a run at 205, even if the belt has changed hands every title fight until Jones showed up, and even though he’s supposedly the same size as those guys anyway. Saying he’d “probably” beat anybody in any division because he beat one former champ is just obtuse.

Well, when you call reach meaningless, I can’t really take you seriously, can I. Vera’s Muay Thai was supposed to be too much for him, Bader was supposed to have too much power, Rua’s leg kicks were supposed to cripple him, Rampage’s KO power and TDD was supposed to stump him, Machida was supposed to be too elusive and explosive and accurate, Rashad too mobile and too good of a boxer and Vitor too explosive and powerful. Yet Jones keeps beating up these much better strikers somehow, despite his lack of striking experience. But I’m sure his reach and the way he uses it has nothing to do with that. Nor should he command any respect for any of it. After all, Silva beat Griffin and Bonnar. Wow.

He doesn’t have to be anything-esque, as long as he keeps beating everybody.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
If Machida connected, Silva will connect. Silva is more dynamic, accurate, and tricky than any striker Jones has faced, i would be shocked if Jones didnt eat shots. He did against Machida, and Anderson is rangier and more powerful than Machida is.

I guess at this rate we will have to just wait and see, should this fight ever take place. [/quote]

Yeah, he probably will. A couple, at least. Silva is going to have to adapt his striking though, because I don’t see hanging back and countering working out against Jones. More aggression and explosion is neccessary.

Oh yeah, I’m hoping we do get to see this fight. This is obviously all just speculation until then.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Jones has lost a round before. Silva never held the 205 belt because he didn’t want to, for whatever reason, not because he couldn’t have. When he came into the UFC QJ and then Forrest were 205 champions, two fighters he could/would have beaten at that time (and he did eventually beat Griffin, casually). Other notable 205ers are Machida and Shogun, two fighters he would probably beat as well.

Reach? Why is everyone hooked on a stat that by itself is meaningless? Jones is not Ali-esque standing. He’s not even Cooney-esque. The gap in skill standing is huge. [/quote]

Which round did he lose? Possibly the 1st in the Machida fight? I’d disagree, but that’s the only one I can think of that’s particularly close. Do tell though.

Haha yes, he didn’t want to. For whatever reason. Of course. Silly of me to suggest he might just find a division with bigger fighters more of a challenge. Fact of the matter is that he cleaned out the 185 years ago and has never made a run at 205, even if the belt has changed hands every title fight until Jones showed up, and even though he’s supposedly the same size as those guys anyway. Saying he’d “probably” beat anybody in any division because he beat one former champ is just obtuse.

Well, when you call reach meaningless, I can’t really take you seriously, can I. Vera’s Muay Thai was supposed to be too much for him, Bader was supposed to have too much power, Rua’s leg kicks were supposed to cripple him, Rampage’s KO power and TDD was supposed to stump him, Machida was supposed to be too elusive and explosive and accurate, Rashad too mobile and too good of a boxer and Vitor too explosive and powerful. Yet Jones keeps beating up these much better strikers somehow, despite his lack of striking experience. But I’m sure his reach and the way he uses it has nothing to do with that. Nor should he command any respect for any of it. After all, Silva beat Griffin and Bonnar. Wow.

He doesn’t have to be anything-esque, as long as he keeps beating everybody.[/quote]

Many would argue he lost a round against Bonnar. Whether you believe that is relevant to today’s discussion of Jones is up to you.

Obviously Silva will have adjustments to make, but Brandon Vera and Bader should not even be mentioned when discussing possible outcomes of a Jones-Silva fight. The only person you can really use as a measuring stick that Jones has faced so far is Machida; He is the only guy who has striking that is close to being as accurate, fast, and unusual as Anderson’s. And the reach didnt affect him too bad. I would expect Silva to do at least as well. But we will see.

The more i talk about it the more i just want to see it now, to put it all to rest. A few months ago i didnt want to see this fight at all as both guys are in my top 5 favorite current UFC fighters, and i’d hate to see either one of them lost to the other, but this debate will rage on for eternity, especially with the ever-annoying Sherdoggers unless this happens.

[audiogarden1]

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
If Machida connected, Silva will connect. Silva is more dynamic, accurate, and tricky than any striker Jones has faced, i would be shocked if Jones didnt eat shots. He did against Machida, and Anderson is rangier and more powerful than Machida is.

I guess at this rate we will have to just wait and see, should this fight ever take place. [/quote]

Yeah, he probably will. A couple, at least. Silva is going to have to adapt his striking though, because I don’t see hanging back and countering working out against Jones. More aggression and explosion is neccessary.

Oh yeah, I’m hoping we do get to see this fight. This is obviously all just speculation until then.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Jones has lost a round before. Silva never held the 205 belt because he didn’t want to, for whatever reason, not because he couldn’t have. When he came into the UFC QJ and then Forrest were 205 champions, two fighters he could/would have beaten at that time (and he did eventually beat Griffin, casually). Other notable 205ers are Machida and Shogun, two fighters he would probably beat as well.

Reach? Why is everyone hooked on a stat that by itself is meaningless? Jones is not Ali-esque standing. He’s not even Cooney-esque. The gap in skill standing is huge. [/quote]

Which round did he lose? Possibly the 1st in the Machida fight? I’d disagree, but that’s the only one I can think of that’s particularly close. Do tell though.

Haha yes, he didn’t want to. For whatever reason. Of course. Silly of me to suggest he might just find a division with bigger fighters more of a challenge. Fact of the matter is that he cleaned out the 185 years ago and has never made a run at 205, even if the belt has changed hands every title fight until Jones showed up, and even though he’s supposedly the same size as those guys anyway. Saying he’d “probably” beat anybody in any division because he beat one former champ is just obtuse.

Well, when you call reach meaningless, I can’t really take you seriously, can I. Vera’s Muay Thai was supposed to be too much for him, Bader was supposed to have too much power, Rua’s leg kicks were supposed to cripple him, Rampage’s KO power and TDD was supposed to stump him, Machida was supposed to be too elusive and explosive and accurate, Rashad too mobile and too good of a boxer and Vitor too explosive and powerful. Yet Jones keeps beating up these much better strikers somehow, despite his lack of striking experience. But I’m sure his reach and the way he uses it has nothing to do with that. Nor should he command any respect for any of it. After all, Silva beat Griffin and Bonnar. Wow.

He doesn’t have to be anything-esque, as long as he keeps beating everybody.[/quote]

Many would argue he lost a round against Bonnar. Whether you believe that is relevant to today’s discussion of Jones is up to you. What is relevant though is the first round in the Machida fight, which you can definitely argue Machida won.

Obviously Silva will have adjustments to make, but Brandon Vera and Bader should not even be mentioned when discussing possible outcomes of a Jones-Silva fight. The only person you can really use as a measuring stick that Jones has faced so far is Machida; He is the only guy who has striking that is close to being as accurate, fast, and unusual as Anderson’s. And the reach didnt affect him too bad. I would expect Silva to do at least as well. But we will see.

The more i talk about it the more i just want to see it now, to put it all to rest. A few months ago i didnt want to see this fight at all as both guys are in my top 5 favorite current UFC fighters, and i’d hate to see either one of them lost to the other, but this debate will rage on for eternity, especially with the ever-annoying Sherdoggers unless this happens.

[Khaine]

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Many would argue he lost a round against Bonnar. Whether you believe that is relevant to today’s discussion of Jones is up to you. What is relevant though is the first round in the Machida fight, which you can definitely argue Machida won.

Obviously Silva will have adjustments to make, but Brandon Vera and Bader should not even be mentioned when discussing possible outcomes of a Jones-Silva fight. The only person you can really use as a measuring stick that Jones has faced so far is Machida; He is the only guy who has striking that is close to being as accurate, fast, and unusual as Anderson’s. And the reach didnt affect him too bad. I would expect Silva to do at least as well. But we will see.

The more i talk about it the more i just want to see it now, to put it all to rest. A few months ago i didnt want to see this fight at all as both guys are in my top 5 favorite current UFC fighters, and i’d hate to see either one of them lost to the other, but this debate will rage on for eternity, especially with the ever-annoying Sherdoggers unless this happens. [/quote]

Rewatched it, and yeah, I’d give that round to Bonnar. Good call.

Now, the point wasn’t really to compare Vera to Silva, just highlight the fact that in every fight Jones has had, opponents have brought something new to the table that he was supposed to struggle with. He’s been equal to each of those challenges. So far.

I’d agree that Machida is the only opponent he’s had that matches Silva in terms of accuracy and speed, but Machida and Silva still have completely different styles and apart from both being quick and accurate, they’re not really comparable IMO.

But to flip that argument, which fighter has Silva faced that can be used as a measuring stick for Jones? Who has Silva beaten that has that combination of reach, unorthodox striking, wrestling and merciless GnP?

I know what you mean, man; they’re both in my top 5 as well. But I really wanna see this fight because I think it’s an interesting matchup. Unlike Silva - GSP, which I doubt would be interesting at all. Doesn’t really matter to me whether my favourite fighters lose, I just wanna see good fights!

[audiogarden1]

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
Many would argue he lost a round against Bonnar. Whether you believe that is relevant to today’s discussion of Jones is up to you. What is relevant though is the first round in the Machida fight, which you can definitely argue Machida won.

Obviously Silva will have adjustments to make, but Brandon Vera and Bader should not even be mentioned when discussing possible outcomes of a Jones-Silva fight. The only person you can really use as a measuring stick that Jones has faced so far is Machida; He is the only guy who has striking that is close to being as accurate, fast, and unusual as Anderson’s. And the reach didnt affect him too bad. I would expect Silva to do at least as well. But we will see.

The more i talk about it the more i just want to see it now, to put it all to rest. A few months ago i didnt want to see this fight at all as both guys are in my top 5 favorite current UFC fighters, and i’d hate to see either one of them lost to the other, but this debate will rage on for eternity, especially with the ever-annoying Sherdoggers unless this happens. [/quote]

Rewatched it, and yeah, I’d give that round to Bonnar. Good call.

Now, the point wasn’t really to compare Vera to Silva, just highlight the fact that in every fight Jones has had, opponents have brought something new to the table that he was supposed to struggle with. He’s been equal to each of those challenges. So far.

I’d agree that Machida is the only opponent he’s had that matches Silva in terms of accuracy and speed, but Machida and Silva still have completely different styles and apart from both being quick and accurate, they’re not really comparable IMO.

But to flip that argument, which fighter has Silva faced that can be used as a measuring stick for Jones? Who has Silva beaten that has that combination of reach, unorthodox striking, wrestling and merciless GnP?

I know what you mean, man; they’re both in my top 5 as well. But I really wanna see this fight because I think it’s an interesting matchup. Unlike Silva - GSP, which I doubt would be interesting at all. Doesn’t really matter to me whether my favourite fighters lose, I just wanna see good fights![/quote]

I said it before that while Anderson has never had to fight someone with Jones’ particular physical gifts, that does not mean he will struggle with them, of course we have no idea though. And the same goes for Jones fighting Anderson. Theres no guarantee that Anderson’s style will be the key to beating Jones, however it could also be the style that finally puts Jones down. We will just have to wait and see come fight time.

And at this point im not particularly interested in the GSP fight because to me its lose-lose for Silva. Most people expect him to win, and in impressive fashion. So if he does just that, its typical Anderson Silva. If he loses though, he just lost to a guy that A) everyone expected him to beat and B) is significantly smaller than him.

While i said i am a big fan of both Anderson and Jones, my biggest interest in seeing this fight comes from wanting to see what Anderson does. To say Jones doesnt have a pretty good shot at pulling that one off would be crazy, but to me there is just this intangible aspect of Anderson’s game that no one else seems to have, like he always knows something we dont. I used to not want to see this fight a year ago cause i worried Anderson would lose but now i just have this feeling that he’ll have another one of his tricks up his sleeve and surprise a lot of people.

Whether im right or wrong, only way ill get to find out is if they fight so hope it happens.

[Aussie_Davo]

Honestly I also feel Silva vs Jones is a far more interesting match up than Silva vs GSP, at least from a fighter’s perspective.

For the general public you can easily see why GSP vs Silva will be a huge draw, it’s the sports two biggest stars going at it, casual fans dont really stop to consider if it will make a good fight or not.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Honestly I also feel Silva vs Jones is a far more interesting match up than Silva vs GSP, at least from a fighter’s perspective.

For the general public you can easily see why GSP vs Silva will be a huge draw, it’s the sports two biggest stars going at it, casual fans dont really stop to consider if it will make a good fight or not.[/quote]

Agreed.

Plus, I see the Jones vs Silva fight definitely ending in a decisive fashion (regardless of who takes it), while the GSP vs Silva fight could very well end in a decision should GSP be successful in taking Silva down and smothering him (not saying that it’s gonna happen, but let’s be honest and admit that it’s pretty much GSP’s only chance of winning that fight).

[ZEB]

Ha ha you guys are still talking about the obvious!