Grindovermatter's Offseason Thread

Training
101

Hey Grind, great to see you updating again…really good stuff in your most recent post on intraworkout nutrition.

You didn’t mention anything about the quality of the pump with Plazma vs. without.

Did you notice a big difference? Any thoughts?

Not sure if you can post macros, although I’ve seen some of the 3DMJ youtube videos and they pretty much lay a lot of it right out there - seems like they individualize and I’m guessing you are starting in a range where you’ve had success before?

If you can’t log them, it would still be great to hear updates on how that part is going or just some general comments on the structure.

Thanks!

102

I’m so excited your posting again, you’re one of my favorite posters lol.

Could you maybe give an idea of what kind of training and diet you’re utilizing? I know working with a coach means you can’t be too specific, but even a rough layout for your split and kind of meal plan would be awesome.

103

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:
Hey Grind, great to see you updating again…really good stuff in your most recent post on intraworkout nutrition.

You didn’t mention anything about the quality of the pump with Plazma vs. without.

Did you notice a big difference? Any thoughts?

Not sure if you can post macros, although I’ve seen some of the 3DMJ youtube videos and they pretty much lay a lot of it right out there - seems like they individualize and I’m guessing you are starting in a range where you’ve had success before?

If you can’t log them, it would still be great to hear updates on how that part is going or just some general comments on the structure.

Thanks!

[/quote]

Ok so the quality of the pump----

I did not notice a “holy shit” huge difference by any means, that being said i cant remember not getting a good pump while Plazma

The thing about the pump is that, its great , it feels really good, you look all hard and vascular and full (even for the next few days) if you got a really good pump for whatever bodypart. However i think a lot of the effects of a great pump dont really translate into long term muscle gains, for example i was going crazy training back for a little bit, and during that entire time my back felt massive, pumped all the time, like it had grown.

Now what happened when i couldnt sustain that much volume anymore due to time constraints-- It shrunk back down to how it felt before. To me that indicates no real muscle growth, as muscle, once you gained it , takes a while to lose, and doesnt go away that easily.

I think there are very simple thing you can do to maximize a pump that cost very little

1- Go into your weight training session adequately hydrated
2- Make sure you are getting enough sodium
3- Get a good carb dense meal before training- I like Oatmeal, whey and peanut butter
4- Train with good form, make sure you are squeezing the muscle, dont just throw weight around

Macros-

3dmj didnt tell me not to post em, i just didnt because they are a little low (embarrasing haha) being a good 15 lbs over stage weight,

225 protein, 375 carb, 70 fat

If average weekly weigh in goes up less then .25 lbs, add 10 grams of carbs

so far i havent been adding any scale weight on those macros really, but i wasnt measuring them meticulously before, and my activity level and programming has changed, and i did not have a good weekly weight average before, so i have decided to hit those macros bang on for 2 weeks and then see what happens.

My average weigh in so far is about 187.5 lbs

104

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I’m so excited your posting again, you’re one of my favorite posters lol.

Could you maybe give an idea of what kind of training and diet you’re utilizing? I know working with a coach means you can’t be too specific, but even a rough layout for your split and kind of meal plan would be awesome.[/quote]

Diet- well IIFYM- however i eat pretty “bro” as the internet kids would say

Proteins-
Chicken, steak, egg whites, whey

Carbs- sweet potato, rice, oatmeal, pancake batter, raspberries, strawberries, blueberries, bananas, fibre 1 cereal, breads

Fats- Whole eggs, Peanbut butter, fish oil, almond milk

funstuff- Ketchup, Low calorie maple syrup, chocolate chips, occasional nature valley bar, my dads weight watchers deserts hah

nothing crazy really!

Training- Well…nothing fancy really, its a 5 3 1 progression on the 5 3 1 lifts with some added frequency on squats and deadlifts and bench, with of course bodybuilding accessory movements. 5 days a week weight training, one cardio session per week.

They do give you very specific reccomendations for RPE for accesory sets and everything is to be logged (this is something ive really sucked at in the past, and literally have to force myself to do.)

105

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

If average weekly weigh in goes up less then .25 lbs, add 10 grams of carbs

so far i havent been adding any scale weight on those macros really, but i wasnt measuring them meticulously before, and my activity level and programming has changed, and i did not have a good weekly weight average before, so i have decided to hit those macros bang on for 2 weeks and then see what happens.

My average weigh in so far is about 187.5 lbs

[/quote]

Thanks and I agree with your comments on the pump and how it leads to almost “artificial” results.

Regarding that “average weekly weight” measurement…is that just the average of each morning’s readings from Monday-Sunday? I weigh-in daily and have that data, maybe I should be doing something more useful with it.

Thanks!

106

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

If average weekly weigh in goes up less then .25 lbs, add 10 grams of carbs

so far i havent been adding any scale weight on those macros really, but i wasnt measuring them meticulously before, and my activity level and programming has changed, and i did not have a good weekly weight average before, so i have decided to hit those macros bang on for 2 weeks and then see what happens.

My average weigh in so far is about 187.5 lbs

[/quote]

Thanks and I agree with your comments on the pump and how it leads to almost “artificial” results.

Regarding that “average weekly weight” measurement…is that just the average of each morning’s readings from Monday-Sunday? I weigh-in daily and have that data, maybe I should be doing something more useful with it.

Thanks![/quote]

Yeah, that’s right just a 7 day weight average. Btw quite th shredded physique in your avatar, if you haven’t already competed , you should!

107

I feel similarly about the pump right now. Sometimes it feels like I am spinning my wheels.

Grind and Serge, what do you feel has been your most effective way to make progress?

108

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
Yeah, that’s right just a 7 day weight average. Btw quite th shredded physique in your avatar, if you haven’t already competed , you should!
[/quote]

Thanks,Grind…nope, never competed but I think it’s in the cards.

And on Tim’s question (hey Tim!) -

Despite the seemingly artificial-ish results from pump-chasing, it has still produced better results than anything I’ve ever tried. More scale weight at same leanness fore sure. But for competitors, I’m not sure it’s great because you guys need to put on more overall size, front-to-back thickness, and of course leg size…you probably need more of the heavy pushing and pulling, I think.

But I guess the other side of the coin is that competing is kind of all about illusion anyway, so judge progress on how you look with a full-on massive pump, because isn’t that what you hope to look like onstage?

109

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:
I feel similarly about the pump right now. Sometimes it feels like I am spinning my wheels.

Grind and Serge, what do you feel has been your most effective way to make progress?[/quote]
Man if I knew the answer to this I wouldn’t of hired 3dmj

Consistency above all else
Staying in a slight caloric surplus for an extended period
You need progressive overload with a good deal of volume on the side too
Alternating periods of high volume bbing work with periods of more strength training

110

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:
Thanks,Grind…nope, never competed but I think it’s in the cards.

And on Tim’s question (hey Tim!) -

Despite the seemingly artificial-ish results from pump-chasing, it has still produced better results than anything I’ve ever tried. More scale weight at same leanness fore sure. But for competitors, I’m not sure it’s great because you guys need to put on more overall size, front-to-back thickness, and of course leg size…you probably need more of the heavy pushing and pulling, I think.

But I guess the other side of the coin is that competing is kind of all about illusion anyway, so judge progress on how you look with a full-on massive pump, because isn’t that what you hope to look like onstage?
[/quote]

That’s a depressing answer, the pump produces the best results and they still feel artificial-ish. : )

Is that what us skinny guys with fast metabolisms have to look forward to?

111

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
Man if I knew the answer to this I wouldn’t of hired 3dmj
[/quote]

I’m about ready to pony up and try working with a coach. That way, if I follow the program to a “T” and don’t get results, I least I know it wasn’t due to poor programming, but just my crappy genetics.

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:
Consistency above all else
Staying in a slight caloric surplus for an extended period
You need progressive overload with a good deal of volume on the side too
Alternating periods of high volume bbing work with periods of more strength training

[/quote]

Definitely agree you on all points above.

In fact I am pouring over my old workout logs and finding the best progress I made was a program I wrote for myself and followed diligently for 10 months while putting on 25 pounds.

112

[quote]timmcbride00 wrote:

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:
Thanks,Grind…nope, never competed but I think it’s in the cards.

And on Tim’s question (hey Tim!) -

Despite the seemingly artificial-ish results from pump-chasing, it has still produced better results than anything I’ve ever tried. More scale weight at same leanness fore sure. But for competitors, I’m not sure it’s great because you guys need to put on more overall size, front-to-back thickness, and of course leg size…you probably need more of the heavy pushing and pulling, I think.

But I guess the other side of the coin is that competing is kind of all about illusion anyway, so judge progress on how you look with a full-on massive pump, because isn’t that what you hope to look like onstage?
[/quote]

That’s a depressing answer, the pump produces the best results and they still feel artificial-ish. : )

Is that what us skinny guys with fast metabolisms have to look forward to?
[/quote]

Fast metabolism can alwasy be beaten with food just gotta learn to eat

Grind keep killing it man

113

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]sideshowdoc wrote:
Does he just give you macros and then you get free reign to do with them what you will? Plan on using any intra workout nutrition?[/quote]
gives you macros to start and instructions on how to raise or lower them depending on how your weekly average weigh in responds…

intra workout nutrition…lets talk about that one there for a second

to answer your question shortly , no i dont really plan on using any. I actually ordered two bottles of plazma to give it a shot. Although i liked it, i didn’t feel it was the factor making or breaking my progress. What i was missing was a well thought out training program, hitting macros everyday and being bang on with with my sleep (ok this was really tough with my schedule). Using intra workout nutrition definitely allows you to train longer with more intensity, however i kind of got lost in the world of volume training for a while. Once you commit to a fairly high volume training regime (like mountaindog training) it was hard for me to know when to stop, for example some days if i had time id train back with like 30 working sets, man my back felt pumped and bigger for the next few days, but then next time back day rolled around i could manage maybe 65 minutes to train so it was all over the place(Ok this is where actually hiring john meadows would help with proper periodization)

Now Lets step back for a minute and ask our selves why intra workout nutrition might be important-

A-It can allow you keep up more intensity during a long session (2 hour plus), because if you attempt long ass training sessions you will get depleted and tired eventually
B- It can be an easy way to get a bunch of carbs down if your stomach tends to get full very easily like mine does
C- some people argue that carbs during the workout can allow you to eat more carbs overall, store more carbs in the muscle, speed up recovery , and everyone has heard the idea that carbs taken in during the workout “cant” make you fat

In my mind both A and B could be valid reasons to take in intraworkout nutrition. Reason C to me, is not scientifically backed up enough for me to consider it valid yet. Perhaps time will tell, in the future though.

As far addressing reason A, the workouts Jeff has given me are definitely not marathon sessions (altthough they certainly dont lack volume either) as im gettting most of them done in about 75 minutes.

Also my funds are very limited now, so anything thats not essential is out of the question.[/quote]

I agree with you on most of this especially the ease of consuming carbs this way. I even like to do something like find a completely plain sugar free rice cereal and will eat that with some unsweetened almond milk along with chicken or beef as opposed to cooked jasmine rice (though I will do normal rice if I am hankering something savory) just because it’s so much easier to eat .

Hiring john in your case or even just buying one of his programs would definitely be the way to go for someone in your situation.

I agree there isn’t enough studies looking at the topic yet about the affects of intra workout carbs, I think that time will show that they do lead to increased recovery and increased muscle mass compared to not having it (at least carbs that is). If you have a membership to johns site or even follow a man named scott stevenson a writings (writes for the MD site also), he points out a study that was actually properly set up that showed a direct correlation between long term post workout cortisol levels and muscle gain (and that protein alone actually increased cortisol, while adding in carbs along with protein directly decreased cortisol). (Oh, and I also agree these are not fat free carbs lol)

114

I think the pump and high volume training is superior for gaining muscle tissue, just compare bodybuilders to power lifters. However, progression is still king, it’s just that the pump training translates into more volume, and more volume (as long as you also make sure you are getting stronger) generally translates to more muscle. Most guys seem to make the mistake and like you say “get caught chasing the pump” and never track weight increases to make sure lifts are progressing. You should always be trying to get the pump, but not at the cost of just going in and winging it and not getting stronger.

Periodically delving into lower volume and lower rep work is a good mix up to throw in as well, as I believe that just teaches you to use more of your cns and also recruit other muscle fibers, as well as actualize gains made during higher volume and frequency approaches (periodization lol).

115

[quote]sideshowdoc wrote:
I think the pump and high volume training is superior for gaining muscle tissue, just compare bodybuilders to power lifters. However, progression is still king, it’s just that the pump training translates into more volume, and more volume (as long as you also make sure you are getting stronger) generally translates to more muscle. Most guys seem to make the mistake and like you say “get caught chasing the pump” and never track weight increases to make sure lifts are progressing. You should always be trying to get the pump, but not at the cost of just going in and winging it and not getting stronger.

Periodically delving into lower volume and lower rep work is a good mix up to throw in as well, as I believe that just teaches you to use more of your cns and also recruit other muscle fibers, as well as actualize gains made during higher volume and frequency approaches (periodization lol).[/quote]

Yes! I do beleive you’re onto something there! Also simply if you train to get stronger for a period, when you go back to high volume cell swelling pumping work, you can also use heavier weights right?

So yeah periodization, something I’ve always sucked at. Definitely at the point now where just going into the gym and smashing it won’t do snymore, need a more intelligent, structured layout.

116

Random thoughts…

Trends in the bodybuilding community

What’s popular In 2014…
Mountain dog training
Reverse dieting
Carbs
High frequency training
Flexible dieting
Intra workout nutrition

What was popular in 2009
High protein and high fat, low carb dieting
DC training
Max ot training
Gettiing fat as fuck on a bulk hahah

What am i trying to get at here…i feel everyone’s ideas of what is " optimal" when it comes to training and diet is waaaaayyyyy more influenced by the supplement industry and popular names in social media rather than basing these ideas over ones personal experiences. Anyone have anything to add to those thoughts???

117

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]sideshowdoc wrote:
I think the pump and high volume training is superior for gaining muscle tissue, just compare bodybuilders to power lifters. However, progression is still king, it’s just that the pump training translates into more volume, and more volume (as long as you also make sure you are getting stronger) generally translates to more muscle. Most guys seem to make the mistake and like you say “get caught chasing the pump” and never track weight increases to make sure lifts are progressing. You should always be trying to get the pump, but not at the cost of just going in and winging it and not getting stronger.

Periodically delving into lower volume and lower rep work is a good mix up to throw in as well, as I believe that just teaches you to use more of your cns and also recruit other muscle fibers, as well as actualize gains made during higher volume and frequency approaches (periodization lol).[/quote]

Yes! I do beleive you’re onto something there! Also simply if you train to get stronger for a period, when you go back to high volume cell swelling pumping work, you can also use heavier weights right?

So yeah periodization, something I’ve always sucked at. Definitely at the point now where just going into the gym and smashing it won’t do snymore, need a more intelligent, structured layout.
[/quote]

Gotta say my legs grew best when my back was hurt for 7 months. No squats Deads or anything heavy on the leg press subsets Tri sets or quad sets of leg curl leg ext leg press and adductor abductor. Racking up to 40-60 sets a leg workout with 10-30 reps a set for one exercise. Walking after was not happening. No heavy weight. Just pain and burn. Grew way better than heavy squats with progression. Just anecdotal

118

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]GrindOverMatter wrote:

[quote]sideshowdoc wrote:
I think the pump and high volume training is superior for gaining muscle tissue, just compare bodybuilders to power lifters. However, progression is still king, it’s just that the pump training translates into more volume, and more volume (as long as you also make sure you are getting stronger) generally translates to more muscle. Most guys seem to make the mistake and like you say “get caught chasing the pump” and never track weight increases to make sure lifts are progressing. You should always be trying to get the pump, but not at the cost of just going in and winging it and not getting stronger.

Periodically delving into lower volume and lower rep work is a good mix up to throw in as well, as I believe that just teaches you to use more of your cns and also recruit other muscle fibers, as well as actualize gains made during higher volume and frequency approaches (periodization lol).[/quote]

Yes! I do beleive you’re onto something there! Also simply if you train to get stronger for a period, when you go back to high volume cell swelling pumping work, you can also use heavier weights right?

So yeah periodization, something I’ve always sucked at. Definitely at the point now where just going into the gym and smashing it won’t do snymore, need a more intelligent, structured layout.
[/quote]

Gotta say my legs grew best when my back was hurt for 7 months. No squats Deads or anything heavy on the leg press subsets Tri sets or quad sets of leg curl leg ext leg press and adductor abductor. Racking up to 40-60 sets a leg workout with 10-30 reps a set for one exercise. Walking after was not happening. No heavy weight. Just pain and burn. Grew way better than heavy squats with progression. Just anecdotal
[/quote]
for sure, I had great gains last off season focussing on doing a huge amount of leg volume with less focus on. Heavy sets…tbh the only thing ive tried that didn’t work for legs was front squats hah

119

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fast metabolism can alwasy be beaten with food just gotta learn to eat

Grind keep killing it man[/quote]

I know how (you saw my prep log, up to 6k at one point), just sometimes the old stomach and jaw get tired. : )

120

I think, as a bodybuilder, you never really need periods of strength only. However, you should always incorporate strength moves into your workouts. Again this is why johns programs are pretty damn awesome, he has walked in both worlds and is a genius at putting together properly sequenced strength,speed,and pump work, along with the right amount of volume.

It’s also why he espouses peri workout nutrition so strongly. Sure you can try his programs and recover from them without it, but to truly thrive, and to be able to handle the programs with 5-7 days a week you definitely benefit from the intra workout drink.

For example, most of johns workouts always start with some exercise n the 8-10 rep range warming up over a lot of sets to a working weight you’ll use for three sets or so to get blood in the muscle, get joints lubed up, etc. Then by the third exercise, and sometimes the second as well, john will incorporate a compound move in the 5 or six rep range, and make use of bands and chains (but sparingly since these can easily be overdone).

He usually finishes the workout with a last pump exercise to really drive blood back into the muscle again. This is the template of a primary workout, and if you usually hit the muscle again in the week it’s just a pump day, with some speed work sometimes.

If your a member if his site he has about half a dozen example workouts for each part on it, and just posted the first two weeks of his creeping death program (all his programs are normally 500 bucks, but this one is on sale now for 200, and it’s 10 weeks long I think). Whenever you buy a program too he goes over your weaknesses and strengths and will make small adjustments here and there for you if you request, or need advice.