Greg Kovacs Dead at 44

Training
81

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
If like I posted earlier, a guy has been training for 10yrs, has gotten to a solid 230lbs, has a 1600lb total, but now has been stuck for over a year. He’s hit his genetic limits, at this point not alot of gear is needed to break past that point, and begin making progress again. This is how I personaly think gear should be used, it’s a personal thing at that point, and I don’t believe thats cheating, your using the gear as training tool.

From what I’ve seen, atleast with PLing, this is what most of the big strong guys do. The kids I’ve seen, won’t believe this, they want to start off using huge amonts of gear, from the very begining. They want to be where the big strong guys are within 3yrs, this I believe is cheating, and stupid, because your relying on the gear, rather than putting the work, and time in. Very seldom does this short cut ever work, even if these kids were to become strong, it never lasts. My posts relate to PLing, as I have little expierance with BBing, but I imagine it’s the same. 2cents[/quote]

Very true here. I was 235 lbs before I ever touched gear and pretty damn strong too. Was playing college ball at the time. Has gear increased my strength exponentially? Hell yes but I already had the lifting and nutrition down.

You could give some of these kids 10X the gear I have ever used and I would still gladly show them up in the weightroom. Like you know gear is a tool not magic. Still requires a ton of hard work and dedication to become “elite” in anything.

82

The only way I see it as cheating is if you entrer a natural show or meet when you’re not. Other than that, they are there for everyone to use if you want, everyone has the same opportunity. Not everyone takes the same road to get to their destination. I don’t see why people are so concerned about other people, as long as you are safe as possible why do you care what the next guy is doing? Is it jealously? what is it

83

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
The only way I see it as cheating is if you entrer a natural show or meet when you’re not. Other than that, they are there for everyone to use if you want, everyone has the same opportunity. Not everyone takes the same road to get to their destination. I don’t see why people are so concerned about other people, as long as you are safe as possible why do you care what the next guy is doing? Is it jealously? what is it[/quote]
Justifying why someone else lifts a certain amount or looks a certain way and you don’t.

84

I don’t judge people, or care what they do really, It’s the kids, I worry about. My whole deal, probably comes from the fact that I kicked a bad cocaine, and heroin addiction years ago ( still work with young addicts) but here I am 10yrs latter, as a gym owner, and I see these young teens, talking about huge cycles, getting shit on the internet, who know’s from where, and I worry about they’re health, and future.

My whole stick, is just trying to keep them natural, until they’re atleast 25yrs, They’ll have some life expieance, and knowlage, try to reach they’re genetic limits a little, before putting a bunch of crap in they’re veins. I’ve produced some big strong teens, because I’ll work with them for free, if they’ll stay off the gear. My track record is helping, because my kids are ending up bigger and stronger, after a couple years, with proper training and diet, then the kids that use, and don’t get the advice, and coaching.

It’s my hang up, I get it, but I try to do my part at my gym atleast. After 5yrs, and atleast 50 kids, I’ve only had two, decide to use. They were both well past 20, were both already really strong, and got away with small test only cycles, to keep growing. I actually worked with these two, to build they’re cycles, and get reputable gear.

I have two dealer’s at my place, that both know my rules, nobody under 25yr, they respect this, and me. It’s better for buisness, because guys over 25yr don’t take the shit to school, show it to everyone, brag about where they got it, get you busted. LOL
Anyway, I know I go off about this subject, I have a passion for it, I’m not against gear, I use it. I’m against a 17yr kid doing 3000ml a week, of shit he got in the mail.

This happens, just not in my place. This is probably somthing I should see a therapist about, but in the mean time I’m on a mission :slight_smile: Latter

85

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
The only way I see it as cheating is if you entrer a natural show or meet when you’re not. Other than that, they are there for everyone to use if you want, everyone has the same opportunity. Not everyone takes the same road to get to their destination. I don’t see why people are so concerned about other people, as long as you are safe as possible why do you care what the next guy is doing? Is it jealously? what is it[/quote]

It’s funny, I think one of the main reasons a lot of guys have for using is because they care so much about what the other guy is doing.

86

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
I use it. I’m against a 17yr kid doing 3000ml a week, of shit he got in the mail.

[/quote]

Holyyy shitttt 3000ml a gear a week? I know you meant mgs haha just was funny reading it.

But it is commendable what you are doing for those kids. I try my best to give advice to the young naive ones who are hell bent on using. At least if they are going to do it regardless I want them to do it safely.

87

, 3000mls haha, there’s gotta be somone running that, I probably got confused reading Reeds logs lately LOL. Anyway it was just a rant, my finger’s can’t keep up with my thougts when I’m ranting. It’s funny when I go on about they’re health, hearts, and kidneys kids don’t listen, but when I say they might not get a hard on for the rest of they’re life’s, wow, then I get they’re attention. hahah latter

88

I agree with the expressed opinion about not jumping on the PED bandwagon too soon, least one fail to understand it’s place amongst the other variables that contribute to a champion caliber physique, or strength total. I’ve seen countless youngsters make use of quite an array of assistance yet still fail to come anywhere close to what I would consider an excellent physique (obviously my experience is limited more to bodybuilding than PLing).

Elsewhere online, Dave Palumbo, who many undoubtedly know as a former NPC competitor who has made quite a name for himself as a prep-coach due to his experience with various PED related issues, wrote a piece paying tribute to a few names in the sport who have chased the 400 lb goal, and quite possibly (open to argument here of course) in the process, passed away.

Obviously I’m not going to link it here, but it’s certainly a worthwhile read, albeit from the perspective of someone who unquestionably views the inclusion of anabolics and the sort as a necessary part of the game at a certain level. Anyway, I thought this was an interesting concluding paragraph. I’m sure it’s fairly easy to find the rest of the article if you’re interested.

S

“While breaking 400 seemed to be the ultimate achievement in human strength and muscularity, it also proved to be the undoing for the brave few who dared to tempt the iron fates. The human body, after all, is not a machine. It?s made of parts that break and, ultimately, cannot be repaired. So I pose the question, have we finally reached the limits of human size and strength? Or will future athletes find ways to trick the body into accepting ungodly amounts of muscle mass while, positively, adapting to the enormous strains on the human organ system? I guess that?s what testing limits and finding new technologies is all about. The original seafaring explorers (prior to Christopher Columbus) routinely lost their lives trying to cross the Atlantic Ocean. When new, more durable, ships were built, the long arduous journey was finally made possible. Many of the naysayers back on the European continents thought the dead sailors were falling off the edge of a flat world; but the innovative captains knew better. They dreamed and obsessed about finding a way to sail ?around the world?. Perhaps, Kovacs, Jenkins, Wilson, Smith and Swenson are not the crazy risk-takers most of the world thinks them to be. Instead, they may have been the daring visionaries that will, ultimately, pave the way to a new improved super athlete that?s bigger, stronger, and more muscular than anything or anyone we?ve ever seen before. For now; however, they?ll all go down in the history of the iron sport as pioneers who proved that ?400? was only a limit of the mind; one that they all surpassed en route to achieving greatness in their respective iron disciplines.”

  • Dave Palumbo , ‘Breaking 400’
89

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’m no expert on PEDs by any stretch, but I saw this and decided it might be interesting for some people to read and discuss. -S

This is a quote DANTE (of Dog Crap Training) posted up in reference to Greg’s death:

I can always tell who has kids and who doesnt have kids when I see people post that its ok to die at 44 if you lived a great life. Trust me with this…34 is right around the corner, 38 comes right after that and youll be 44 and thinking “wow im already 44, that went by quick”…You do not want to be dying of heart failure in your early 40’s with a beautiful wife near your hospital bed and three little children asking “Daddy when are you coming home”?..(and your not)…and they have nobody as a father thru their formulative years because you were so self absorbed as a bodybuilder you didnt think of the future gameplan of health.

See people will argue against this till they are blue in the face because you cannot inject 3cc’s tommorow if there is potential you could die down the road. So how do they deal with it? They use the “well it happened to that guy because of this…and it wont happen to me” … I post on a pretty hardcore board and there is quite a few people with kidney failure and heart attacks (kidney failure at 29 and heart attacks at 37…things like that)…just look at this last couple years off the top of my head… Brad Hillenbaugh (kidney failure), Nasser, Kovacs, Duvall, Daniele Seccarecci, Art Atwood, Mattarrazzo (heart), Luke wood…its getting ridiculous. I remember in the early 90’s when GH was insanely expensive and everyone was saying Strydom was using 6ius a day…and people were out of their minds thinking that was such a large dose. Nowadays? Thats a middleweight at a county show’s dose. Back in the 90’s… 1000mg of test was considered a pretty hefty dose. Thats a starter cycle for alot of these guys who want it so bad nowadays.
Everyone wants to be a bodybuilder tommorow and now you got a slew of young, impressionables who think there is a secret besides extreme mesomorphic genes and response…and these guys listening to this Boston Loyd kid who is what 22 years old and using 13 grams of stuff? And he justifies himself by telling people thats what everyone does? How the hell would a 22 year old kid from northern cali know what a pro bodybuilder from Florida, Texas, or New York does? Does Boston Loyd know what YOU right now who is reading this does juice wise? No he doesnt and he doesnt know what 400 different pro bodybuilders do.

The battle cry used to be “where are the bodies…if steroids are so bad?”…well you are seeing them now. The late 90’s into the 2000’s and the increased access and lower prices due to the internet …brought on a huge amount of terribly insecure “junky-like” bodybuilders who didnt think longterm.
And you are starting to see the bodies…but what is coming up? what are we going to see from the last 8 years? It will be ridiculous. Its gotten outrageous with the dosages used and you are going to see alot of people dying and health maladies over the next decade. I watched that Loyd video of him beating his chest saying his blood work was ok. Did Kovacs die 2 months after his abuse? Nasser? Artwood? No they didnt…Virtually any 22 year old kid who abuses himself isnt going to drop dead at 23! But 15-20 years later? Thats is where there is going to be an accumalation of damage.

What are we seeing over and over of late? Heart failure. The science is there! Anabolic Steroids, Growth Hormone, and Hypertrophy of the Heart
You combine grams of testosterone with large doses of Growth hormone over time…what is going to happen to you is in the literature above and the consequences below.
Anthony M. D’Arezzo Obituary: View Anthony D’Arezzo’s Obituary by The Providence Journal

See people only read about so and so pro bodybuilder who succumbs…nobody hears about the 3rd place finisher of MR Podunk who wanted it so bad and ended up dying at age 47 from his usage.

Dante

Spot on! Brian Batcheldor

90

^^^^ What a crock, as with the addicts I work with, the path has to be followed to the end ‘’ Rock bottom’’ for the rebirth to happen. In PLing I believe it’s starting to happen, after years of heading in a ridiculous direction, a rebirth, and reinterest is happening, and the public is becomming more interested again, with raw lifter’s and atainable totals. I don’t follow BBing closely, but I think the same thing is starting to happen.

Where the money goes, people will follow, from what I can tell, big sponser’s are getting behind mens physique, or whatever it’s called. Guys like Mike Ohern, and Layne Norton are becoming rock stars, and house hold names, rather than just guys we make fun of :slight_smile: I could be wrong, but it seems there’s more interest right now in natural BBing, then I ever remeber.

This American ninja, cross fit, MMA and spartan races, is a trend I see in my gym more and more, people not only wanting to look fit, but be able to do stuff. I have very few guys just training for BBing anymore, most are in it to perform better, if anything they want drugs to get skinny LOL, I think you’ll see BBing split into a bunch of different classes like women’s has, I have probably 12 different women training for shows, right now, and only one guy I can think of. This is different, 10yrs ago, every guy in a gym wanted to be a huge BBer, now I have one. Thats what I’m seeing in my little petri dish (gym) I don’t know whats going on every where else

91

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Sometimes cheating at a sport is harder than playing fair. A card cheat might spend a huge amount of time and work on practicing a slight of hand in order to cheat at the game. Is a card cheat (who works really hard at cheating) more deserving of winning than the honest guy who didn’t?[/quote]
No, but for whatever reason steroids, to me, aren’t analogous to that. I just think they’re a choice not a cheat.[/quote]

Honestly, that doesn’t make any sense at all.

If you use steroids for vanity/personal reasons, then sure. All you’re doing is breaking a law that you do not agree with. O.K.

So long as you don’t go become Mr. Olympia and claim that you didn’t use steroids, I don’t see why it should matter to anyone besides between you and law enforcement.

But when you go into the realm of things like sports or entertainment activities, like football and poker, the comparison works.

If an athlete is allowed to cheat, then why on Earth shouldn’t a poker player be allowed to cheat? Like you all said, cheating effectively is hard. You need to know your stuff and not get caught. That still doesn’t change the fact that you’re ignoring the rules and doing illegal things for your own advantage over others who aren’t.

That’s the basic issue. It’s not that they’re using steroids, but rather that they’re breaking the rules for their own advantage. That is cheap, and it is unfair.

92

[quote]EuroGuru wrote:

This is a quote DANTE (of Dog Crap Training) posted up in reference to Greg’s death:
[/quote]

Maybe Dante should learn how to spell the names correctly before he starts spouting his very poorly written propaganda.

93

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Sometimes cheating at a sport is harder than playing fair. A card cheat might spend a huge amount of time and work on practicing a slight of hand in order to cheat at the game. Is a card cheat (who works really hard at cheating) more deserving of winning than the honest guy who didn’t?[/quote]
No, but for whatever reason steroids, to me, aren’t analogous to that. I just think they’re a choice not a cheat.[/quote]

Honestly, that doesn’t make any sense at all.

If you use steroids for vanity/personal reasons, then sure. All you’re doing is breaking a law that you do not agree with. O.K.

So long as you don’t go become Mr. Olympia and claim that you didn’t use steroids, I don’t see why it should matter to anyone besides between you and law enforcement.

But when you go into the realm of things like sports or entertainment activities, like football and poker, the comparison works.

If an athlete is allowed to cheat, then why on Earth shouldn’t a poker player be allowed to cheat? Like you all said, cheating effectively is hard. You need to know your stuff and not get caught. That still doesn’t change the fact that you’re ignoring the rules and doing illegal things for your own advantage over others who aren’t.

That’s the basic issue. It’s not that they’re using steroids, but rather that they’re breaking the rules for their own advantage. That is cheap, and it is unfair.[/quote]

Ok so if an athlete is allowed to cheat, how is it considered cheating??

94

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Ok so if an athlete is allowed to cheat, how is it considered cheating??
[/quote]

Ahh, this is where we get into the whole ‘level playing field’ argument, because it’s so prevailant whether we acknowledge it or not.

Let’s face it though, with the potential rewards a top level professional athlete can reap, it’s not surprising that so many will do whatever they can to be the best. If PEDs were completely legal, is it safe to say that the vast majority (if not all) professional athletes would be ‘on’,and additionally, that it wouldn’t even be viewed as an issue in need of discussion?

S

95

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Ok so if an athlete is allowed to cheat, how is it considered cheating??
[/quote]

Ahh, this is where we get into the whole ‘level playing field’ argument, because it’s so prevailant whether we acknowledge it or not.

Let’s face it though, with the potential rewards a top level professional athlete can reap, it’s not surprising that so many will do whatever they can to be the best. If PEDs were completely legal, is it safe to say that the vast majority (if not all) professional athletes would be ‘on’,and additionally, that it wouldn’t even be viewed as an issue in need of discussion?

S[/quote]

Agreed, speaking of professional athletes it amazes me how ignorance frames the general publics opinion. PEDs or whatever the fuck you call it is always demonized. In baseball for instance people will gloss over the fact that greenies or amphetamines were used for decades and not covered up, it could be said that the use of these amphetamines had a more performance enhancing effect immediately than the roidzzz.

96

[quote]MattyXL wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Ok so if an athlete is allowed to cheat, how is it considered cheating??
[/quote]

Ahh, this is where we get into the whole ‘level playing field’ argument, because it’s so prevailant whether we acknowledge it or not.

Let’s face it though, with the potential rewards a top level professional athlete can reap, it’s not surprising that so many will do whatever they can to be the best. If PEDs were completely legal, is it safe to say that the vast majority (if not all) professional athletes would be ‘on’,and additionally, that it wouldn’t even be viewed as an issue in need of discussion?

S[/quote]

Agreed, speaking of professional athletes it amazes me how ignorance frames the general publics opinion. PEDs or whatever the fuck you call it is always demonized. In baseball for instance people will gloss over the fact that greenies or amphetamines were used for decades and not covered up, it could be said that the use of these amphetamines had a more performance enhancing effect immediately than the roidzzz.
[/quote]

Anyone remember the pitcher from the 70’s who admitted to being coked out of his gord while pitching during the World Series? It’s funny, 'cause the general public (who are all morons) bitch that PED’s are cheating, but these same people would tune out if there wasn’t 500 foot homers or Ray Lewis hitting some dude so hard his helmet cracked. The average person wants to see the “super human” feats but is completely unwilling to accept what’s needed to produce that result.

97

The amount of ignorance with regards to PED’s is unreal.

Half of the “bro’s” at any local or university gym are on PED’s just to look jacked at the beach but you think that college athletes who are playing for a shot at the NFL/MLB and MILLIONS of dollars aren’t going to use anything? What about guys trying to keep their jobs in the league while younger, bigger, stronger, faster, CHEAPER players are coming for their jobs?

Come on now.

98

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
It’s funny, 'cause the general public (who are all morons) bitch that PED’s are cheating, but these same people would tune out if there wasn’t 500 foot homers or Ray Lewis hitting some dude so hard his helmet cracked. The average person wants to see the “super human” feats but is completely unwilling to accept what’s needed to produce that result.
[/quote]
Exactly. People are so ignorant on the subject that they aren’t even aware how hypocritical they are.

99

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
Ok so if an athlete is allowed to cheat, how is it considered cheating??
[/quote]

Ahh, this is where we get into the whole ‘level playing field’ argument, because it’s so prevailant whether we acknowledge it or not.

Let’s face it though, with the potential rewards a top level professional athlete can reap, it’s not surprising that so many will do whatever they can to be the best. If PEDs were completely legal, is it safe to say that the vast majority (if not all) professional athletes would be ‘on’,and additionally, that it wouldn’t even be viewed as an issue in need of discussion?

S[/quote]

Agreed, speaking of professional athletes it amazes me how ignorance frames the general publics opinion. PEDs or whatever the fuck you call it is always demonized. In baseball for instance people will gloss over the fact that greenies or amphetamines were used for decades and not covered up, it could be said that the use of these amphetamines had a more performance enhancing effect immediately than the roidzzz.
[/quote]

Anyone remember the pitcher from the 70’s who admitted to being coked out of his gord while pitching during the World Series? It’s funny, 'cause the general public (who are all morons) bitch that PED’s are cheating, but these same people would tune out if there wasn’t 500 foot homers or Ray Lewis hitting some dude so hard his helmet cracked. The average person wants to see the “super human” feats but is completely unwilling to accept what’s needed to produce that result.
[/quote]
Was it Ferguson Jenkins or John blue moon Odom? I know Dennis oil can Boyd was a complete coke head but that was the 80s

100

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
It’s funny, 'cause the general public (who are all morons) bitch that PED’s are cheating, but these same people would tune out if there wasn’t 500 foot homers or Ray Lewis hitting some dude so hard his helmet cracked. The average person wants to see the “super human” feats but is completely unwilling to accept what’s needed to produce that result.
[/quote]
Exactly. People are so ignorant on the subject that they aren’t even aware how hypocritical they are.[/quote]

A few years ago I got into an argument with my nephew (who was 16-17 at the time) about Jay Cutler (bodybuilding, not football). Cutler was sponsored by russel blech, and my nephew legitimately believed he got to that level by taking their pproducts. Granted, he was a teen, but c’mon now. The sad thing is, his opinion (or naivety) seems to be the norm.