Greatest Fighter of All Time?

Training
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[quote]OMC wrote:

I’d say the same as you said about RJJ fr Sugar Ray in his prime. But then again I consider RJJ’s chin to be suspect and Sugar ray’s to be granite. Thats what separates it for me at their prime.

OMC
[/quote]

That’s a good analysis of RJJ and Sugar RR, the suspect chin might be the difference. However, in Roy’s prime, no one could touch his chin. especially in the lower weight classes he fought in then. Someone would have to have exceptional speed and power to be able to dent him in those days. Wait, that sounds like Sugar Ray Robinson! I agree that Sugar would be the favorite, but if they fought multiple times like they used to in the old days, Roy might take one or two from him.

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[quote]Sub-200 wrote:
Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Strength, power, enough speed, chin, ridiculous heart, stamina and was disciplined like no other. A pure fighter all around.[/quote]

You know, I stupidly left Hagler off my list of top guys, and I almost went back to edit the post. Hagler is one of the most underlooked, underappreciated guys who ever boxed. Your assessment of him says it all. An incredible fighter.

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[quote]Xeneize wrote:
Sub-200 wrote:
Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Strength, power, enough speed, chin, ridiculous heart, stamina and was disciplined like no other. A pure fighter all around.
[/quote]

You left out awesomeness.

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[quote]heavythrower wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I’m talking more boxing. I don’t know that MMA has the rich history yet- you can ask who was the greatest MMA guy in 50 years, and see who comes up and what not, and who’s career really lasted the longest. Not really a conversation you can have just yet.

As for criteria, base it however you like. Some folks go for Marciano’s 49-0, some folks go for Ali based on his famous fights, some will go with Robinson or Mayweather.

I picked Jones because I think pound for pound, he’s the best mix of power and speed I’ve ever seen. Though he has great fundamentals, he fought brawls because that was his nature- he’ll stand toe to toe and still could knock you out. I think he’s underrated in the pantheon of great fighters.

Sugar Ray Robinson is a great answer too. I would have enjoyed seeing the two of them fight at middleweight…would have been incredible.

Muhammad Ali could also be mentioned, as I think his skills were some of the best I’ve ever seen also.

got to disagree irish, RJJ does NOT have great fundamentals. i am surprised you say this, as my understanding is you have quite the boxing background, much more than me.

RJJ, Ali, maywether, all are FREAKISH TALENTS, who had lousy fundamentals. there insane amount of talent made up for that. that is why guys like RJJ and Ali, start getting hit very hard and often once a little age catches up with them and they lose a step or two.

while fighters with great fundamentals, like Glen Johnson stay at a top level into their forties, as long as they have their conditioning dialed in.
[/quote]

You really should open up a new thread for this specifically.
Could be a very good debate.

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[quote]heavythrower wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I’m talking more boxing. I don’t know that MMA has the rich history yet- you can ask who was the greatest MMA guy in 50 years, and see who comes up and what not, and who’s career really lasted the longest. Not really a conversation you can have just yet.

As for criteria, base it however you like. Some folks go for Marciano’s 49-0, some folks go for Ali based on his famous fights, some will go with Robinson or Mayweather.

I picked Jones because I think pound for pound, he’s the best mix of power and speed I’ve ever seen. Though he has great fundamentals, he fought brawls because that was his nature- he’ll stand toe to toe and still could knock you out. I think he’s underrated in the pantheon of great fighters.

Sugar Ray Robinson is a great answer too. I would have enjoyed seeing the two of them fight at middleweight…would have been incredible.

Muhammad Ali could also be mentioned, as I think his skills were some of the best I’ve ever seen also.

got to disagree irish, RJJ does NOT have great fundamentals. i am surprised you say this, as my understanding is you have quite the boxing background, much more than me.

RJJ, Ali, maywether, all are FREAKISH TALENTS, who had lousy fundamentals. there insane amount of talent made up for that. that is why guys like RJJ and Ali, start getting hit very hard and often once a little age catches up with them and they lose a step or two.

while fighters with great fundamentals, like Glen Johnson stay at a top level into their forties, as long as they have their conditioning dialed in.
[/quote]

Whoa big man!!! Can’t agree with you there amigo!

Maybe I can see what you’re saying as far as RJJ goes. Many of Roy’s fights look like brawls because he was always willing to stand and swing, especially when he thought he had you. He would come in with lead hooks while he was… well… dancing, half the time, and he was so unorthodox that I could see where you’re was coming from.

But I’ve never seen timing like he had, and though he threw alot of punches from unorthodox angles, his footwork was still solid. I’ll admit that it’s hard to judge the basics on a guy who is so talented that he can throw four lead hooks in a row, but he threw as good a 1-2 as is out there, and his hooks were some of the best around- great mixes of speed and power.

As far as Ali, I really haven’t watched enough of his fights to make a judgement.

Haha, but here’s my big one- you ain’t tellin’ me that my man Pretty Boy doesn’t have the best fundamentals around right?

LOL. I think we may need another thread for this…

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[quote]heavythrower wrote:

\

excellent post irish, excellent. mind fuck indeed. so you get beat at a game of basket ball or tennis, or football, so what? somebody hit a little ball a little to fast for you to hit it back, or was a little to quick for you to stop him before he ran accross a white line while holding a ball, or he could throw a ball into a hoop from a greater distance than you. so what?

you get beat in one-one combat sport, that means another man in a fair fight just beat you up, and you were not able to stop him, despite your best efforts. you were helpless against another man and had to take a beating. that really messes with ones psyche. many fighter are never the same after a big loss/KO, just for that reason, no matter what the talent level.
[/quote]

Haha, yup. I wish more people understood that. Xen’s made a couple big, long posts about this in bodybuilding threads when they knock fighting… its absolutely true.

Fighting is just different. There’s nothing worse than knowing, “I was so gassed that if he wanted to kill me there, I couldn’t have stopped him.”

It’s humbling.

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exactly irish,

when i was doing a little boxing recently before my elbow surgery, it was very humbling sparing with 16-19 year old mexican kids i outweighed by 40-70lbs, that if it was not for the headgear and poofy gloves, they would have KILLED ME.

alot different than if they beat me at a game of hoops.

RJJ came in with his head, left his left hanging low by his waist, etc. that is why once he slowed down a little, good fundamental fighters like tarver and johnson, who keep their guard up, throw crisp straight short punches down the pike, caught his chin and put him to sleep.

Ali was LIGHTENING fast for a heavyweight, and could dance for 15 rounds. unheard of for his time. again, once he slowed down, he became hittable and beatable, what made ALi so great in his later years, was his IRON chin, HUGE heart, and ring smarts. oh, his still had VERY fast hands for a heavyweight, even though his head movement and foot work slowed down.

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[quote]heavythrower wrote:
exactly irish,

when i was doing a little boxing recently before my elbow surgery, it was very humbling sparing with 16-19 year old mexican kids i outweighed by 40-70lbs, that if it was not for the headgear and poofy gloves, they would have KILLED ME.

alot different than if they beat me at a game of hoops.

RJJ came in with his head, left his left hanging low by his waist, etc. that is why once he slowed down a little, good fundamental fighters like tarver and johnson, who keep their guard up, throw crisp straight short punches down the pike, caught his chin and put him to sleep.

Ali was LIGHTENING fast for a heavyweight, and could dance for 15 rounds. unheard of for his time. again, once he slowed down, he became hittable and beatable, what made ALi so great in his later years, was his IRON chin, HUGE heart, and ring smarts. oh, his still had VERY fast hands for a heavyweight, even though his head movement and foot work slowed down.

[/quote]

I think your assessment of RJJ and Ali are dead on, HT. I think Pretty Boy, however, is very schooled in the fundamentals. His defensive techniques, the arc of his punches are very textbook, and his incredible reflexes and speed and calm demeanor inside the ring made him, well, unbeatable to date.

Back to RJJ (who is one of my all-time favorites), I think it’s fair to say he was not a textbook, fundamentally sound fighter. But he was so naturally gifted that he could get away with things others couldn’t for a very long time. Plus, he had great instincts. His defense was better than many give him credit for.

As for Ali, I’m also old enough to have seen most of his fights and I remember commentators and critics bitching about his flaunting of the fundamentals. They often seemed pissed that he was getting away with such technique. And indeed a whole generation of would-be Ali copycats were basically ruined (Greg Page comes to mind). It’s like people trying to be like Mike. Forget that, there’s only one. Just be the best you that you can be.

69

Shout out for Roberto Duran

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[quote]Joe Grim wrote:
Shout out for Roberto Duran[/quote]

Would have loved to see Duran against Pretty Boy at their lightweight primes.

71

Bas Rutten

But then, because I’m dutch

best boxer: Ali without a doubt

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[quote]Joe Grim wrote:
Shout out for Roberto Duran[/quote]

Great boxer, but not the greatest… not even at his weight class. I think Duran could out-tough anyone… but there were those who could out-box Duran. I know he was the oldest of the Leonard-Duran-Haggler-Hearns era, but still, he was by no stretch the best.

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Joe Grim wrote:
Shout out for Roberto Duran

Great boxer, but not the greatest… not even at his weight class. I think Duran could out-tough anyone… but there were those who could out-box Duran. I know he was the oldest of the Leonard-Duran-Haggler-Hearns era, but still, he was by no stretch the best.[/quote]

Well I’m half-Panamanian so I might be just a TAD biased. lol

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Joe Grim wrote:
Shout out for Roberto Duran

Great boxer, but not the greatest… not even at his weight class. I think Duran could out-tough anyone… but there were those who could out-box Duran. I know he was the oldest of the Leonard-Duran-Haggler-Hearns era, but still, he was by no stretch the best.[/quote]

Duran wasn’t tough, he was a bully. When the going got tough, he quit. No mas. What a disgrace.

75

[quote]Erasmus wrote:
Bas Rutten

But then, because I’m dutch

[/quote]

I’d actually back this for MMA or fighting in general. As great as Fedor is…I tink Bas has more tools.

Oisin

76

Actually the gap between Fedor and Bas is quite big. And I consider Bas a serious ass-kicker. Problem is, he came late to ground fighting methods. And Fedor has shown multiple times he can easily deal with sluggers and boxers on his feet.

The only thing where Bas easily owns Fedor is his personality.
They can’t code good charisma-routines yet, and it doesn’t help that russians are as funny as germans.

77

[quote]OMC wrote:
Erasmus wrote:
Bas Rutten

But then, because I’m dutch

I’d actually back this for MMA or fighting in general. As great as Fedor is…I tink Bas has more tools.

Oisin

[/quote]

Your fucking shitting me. You had better been high as a fucking kite when you posted this.

78

If we’re talking about pound for pound I would have to take Tyson. I’m going to say I’m comparing one fight at the fighters prime, and I think Tyson would end all. He could take one or two punches and his uppercuts were quick and explosive knockout punches worthy of a 230+ lb man when he was 195-205. Before they purposely tried to make his fights last longer, NOBODY stood a chance. Even in MMA a knockout punch has proven to end fights.

Ali would be second, I don’t think he has nearly the natural talent as Roy, Floyd and Tyson, but his mental edge is far stronger than Roy and Floyd. His confidence would win him the first part of the fight, and his will to win/strategy the second part.

I’d take Roy over Floyd because I think they both bait and are patient but Roy in his prime had more power, was MUCH quicker, and had a much longer reach. Everybody forgets how good Roy was but before he tried to play into the marketing hype, and fool around with his natural bodyweight nobody was knocking him out. Changing your bodytype has a very lasting effect and Roy Jones is the biggest proof.

MMA I don’t see how this any other option besides Fedor, although I would’ve liked to see an Ernesto and Fedor fight in their prime.

79

How about Jack Dempsey?

25 first round KO’s, that’s the most ever by anyone to the best of my knowledge.

80

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Actually the gap between Fedor and Bas is quite big. And I consider Bas a serious ass-kicker. Problem is, he came late to ground fighting methods. And Fedor has shown multiple times he can easily deal with sluggers and boxers on his feet.

The only thing where Bas easily owns Fedor is his personality.
They can’t code good charisma-routines yet, and it doesn’t help that russians are as funny as germans.[/quote]

Actually its because of that assumption that I give Bas the edge. Bas entered grappling late but picked it up crazy quick. Look at the list of people Bas has rolled with and apped… repeatedly.

World class compettors in both MMA and straight jitz. Bas is crazy good. I would say he came too early to MMA and fell in with that group of pioneers ala Shamrock, Mezger, Rickson when he actually eclipsed all of them by far as time progressed.

I’m a big fan of both fighters and genuinely believe that Bas could out-strike Fedor, best him on the ground but would run into a Nog like beating via ground and pound. Bas was known for a rock of a chin so I don’t see Fedor puttin his lights out. Therefore if Bas stays standing he should win and if he ends up in doninant position on the ground he’s got a great shot too.

Its just speculation obviously but when guys like Rickson Gracie purposefully price themselves out of a match with a guy…you know he’s gotta have some serious game.

OMC