This is a good thread, I learned some good stuff. Need some more like these around here.
Thanks Julius_Caesar
Great info!
[quote]AndrewS wrote:
FWIW,
As a relatively new lifter (<1yr), I switched to Westside and followed the 70% rule of thumb for goodmornings on max effort day- got my GM up into the high 300s, doing medium stance arched back, and from chains. My squat stalled in the low 300s, and I made little progress until I dropped GMs as a max effort exercise, spent more time squatting and started using GMs (alternated with RDLs) as an assist exercise, sometimes going down to sets of heavy triples, sometimes doing sets up to 15 (re work).
I put about 60lbs on my squat in about 8 months with this switch. As a relatively new lifter, I think the extra work on the squat is more valuable.
Andrew[/quote]
Actually, I think if you are new to powerlifting you should practice form, form and more form, so you should probably stick with classic periodization routines. Two that I have tried that work are Dr. Squat’s 100 day routine and Ed Coan/Phillipi routine that is floating around the internet.
After you get a solid foundation, and these periodization routines don’t work, then go to WSB. WSB is probably not for beginners in my opinion.
For Julius Ceasar and Body Guard, how friggen big are you guys to be GM’ing that much weight. I’ve been doing them with 185 which I thought was decent weight, being that anyone I’ve ever seen doing them in my gym (which is rare) never goes over 95lbs. Do you guys hit parallel with a slight arch and knees slightly unlocked, ass pushed back? Am I doing these right?
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
thmgoodw wrote:
daraz wrote:
They also said that past a certain poundage on the lift, they actually drop it as a ME exercise and use it only as assistance.
I remember reading that too, something like 500 or 600 pounds.
I don’t think that unless you are an elite powerlifter that you can do a triple with 6 or even 500 pounds.
I know when I started doing them that the gains came fast and furious, and when I got into the upper threes they slowed down to maybe 5 pounds a month on my max triple.
[/quote]
I love goodmornings, hit 425 for 10 reps the other day, regularly hitting 20-25 reps with 325 and worked to 500 for doubles, it a great exercise, every other movement goes up as well.
Just be consistent and listen to your body, get the movement right and the weight will come.
[quote]as wrote:
For Julius Ceasar and Body Guard, how friggen big are you guys to be GM’ing that much weight. I’ve been doing them with 185 which I thought was decent weight, being that anyone I’ve ever seen doing them in my gym (which is rare) never goes over 95lbs. Do you guys hit parallel with a slight arch and knees slightly unlocked, ass pushed back? Am I doing these right?[/quote]
I’m 6.1 and 275. I’ve pulled 650 Conventional and squatted 725 when in contest shape; it’s been a while though because I’ve been training around a knee injury and haven’t been able to squat at all or really DL - hence the renewed vigor on the GM.
Yes, knees never locked - ass out and back, and depth to what your arch will allow without losing it which for me is pretty close to parallel. I was surprised with the 500 for a triple - not b/c of the weight but b/c of the weight w/o a belt.
[quote]as wrote:
For Julius Ceasar and Body Guard, how friggen big are you guys to be GM’ing that much weight. I’ve been doing them with 185 which I thought was decent weight, being that anyone I’ve ever seen doing them in my gym (which is rare) never goes over 95lbs. Do you guys hit parallel with a slight arch and knees slightly unlocked, ass pushed back? Am I doing these right?[/quote]
There are tons of GM variations out there. For example you have three varieties of arched back: close stance, medium stance and wide stance. You have the same variations also for rounded back GMs. You can also do concentric ones off of pins or chains.
If you do arched back good mornings, you usually don’t go as far to parallel as you suggested, because you will lose your arch. If you do these, you arch tight.
I have some of the Westside Barbell tapes and Louie Simmons shows a decent mix of them there. I would say that the only ones that I haven’t tried are the squat/gms that he has on the tape.
As for how I improved my GMs, well I started off by having that trainer show me good form; which is basically pushing your ass back until you hit close to parallel and then thrust your hips forward.
Then I started doing the Coan/Phillipi deadlift routine that is on the internet. This calls for a lot of good mornings.
This gave me a nice foundation before I tried WSB.
I tried WSB, because when I was doing those periodization routines, they didn’t work as advertised.
For example, when I did the Coan/Phillipi routine, somehow after doing 95% of my max, I couldn’t even hit 97.5% the next week!
Do you know how discouraging that was? To spend 8 weeks doing something and miss your rep? A week later I couldn’t even hit 100% of my old DL! My deadlift was more pathetic than it was when I started!
Then I started reading and studying the conjugate method.
Instead of the bullshit, let’s pull out the calculator and see what the fuck is 97.5% of 425, I could do lots of different exercises and leave the calculator at home for doing my bills.
Now back to the questions: At the time when I did the 400*3 GM, I weighed 220 at 6 foot tall; now I am skinner as I weigh 185, so obviously I never was big.
For the 400*3, these were arched back gms done to maybe 15-30 degrees above parallel (it was last summer, so it is a bit hazy…)
For parallel, more round back ones, I probably used less weight, maybe mid 300’s or so.
I built them up after I had a solid foundation by hitting 3’s and sometimes singles too. If you do them for low reps and pay lots of attention to them, they will move.
Unofortunately, you will get a lot of looks and comments from poofs and fitness pencilnecks who will tell you that you will fuck up your back, but as my trainer used to say “they don’t know what the fuck they are talking about” as long as your form is good.
Try the squat/gm it's a ball buster, great movement and really does work u hard in a short amount of time, as for the naysayers just ignore them and let them get back to their swiss balls.
…strong ass mother fuckers…400lbs Good mornings…freaks of nature… get a hobby besides training why don’t ya!
[quote]aussie486 wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
thmgoodw wrote:
daraz wrote:
They also said that past a certain poundage on the lift, they actually drop it as a ME exercise and use it only as assistance.
I remember reading that too, something like 500 or 600 pounds.
I don’t think that unless you are an elite powerlifter that you can do a triple with 6 or even 500 pounds.
I know when I started doing them that the gains came fast and furious, and when I got into the upper threes they slowed down to maybe 5 pounds a month on my max triple.
I love goodmornings, hit 425 for 10 reps the other day, regularly hitting 20-25 reps with 325 and worked to 500 for doubles, it a great exercise, every other movement goes up as well.
Just be consistent and listen to your body, get the movement right and the weight will come.
[/quote]
Damn. 425 x 10 boggles my mind.
[quote]WolBarret wrote:
…strong ass mother fuckers…400lbs Good mornings…freaks of nature… get a hobby besides training why don’t ya![/quote]
First of all Thanks. I think it depends on the trainee though. I have been doing GM’s for less than a year now and my 3 rep max on GM’s went from 245 to 400. Weight goes up rather quickly with GM’s and I believe that wide stance pullthroughs help this also. Ofcourse I do not consider myself a freak of nature but I will take the compliment.
I would love to be able to do GM’s heavy, but I have this odd problem. I suppose it’s because I don’t have as much meat on my back as you guys do. But as I get up to 135 I always wind up getting “knurled”.
In other words, as the weight gets heavier, it bites into my flesh. Yes, I have my shoulder blades together and my elbows back. No, it’s not sitting on my neck. Maybe I just need to suck it up and accept the pain and torn flesh.
Anyone else have this problem?
Don’t tell me to use a pad. I don’t use pads.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
as wrote:
For Julius Ceasar and Body Guard, how friggen big are you guys to be GM’ing that much weight. I’ve been doing them with 185 which I thought was decent weight, being that anyone I’ve ever seen doing them in my gym (which is rare) never goes over 95lbs. Do you guys hit parallel with a slight arch and knees slightly unlocked, ass pushed back? Am I doing these right?
There are tons of GM variations out there. For example you have three varieties of arched back: close stance, medium stance and wide stance. You have the same variations also for rounded back GMs. You can also do concentric ones off of pins or chains.
If you do arched back good mornings, you usually don’t go as far to parallel as you suggested, because you will lose your arch. If you do these, you arch tight.
I have some of the Westside Barbell tapes and Louie Simmons shows a decent mix of them there. I would say that the only ones that I haven’t tried are the squat/gms that he has on the tape.
As for how I improved my GMs, well I started off by having that trainer show me good form; which is basically pushing your ass back until you hit close to parallel and then thrust your hips forward.
Then I started doing the Coan/Phillipi deadlift routine that is on the internet. This calls for a lot of good mornings.
This gave me a nice foundation before I tried WSB.
I tried WSB, because when I was doing those periodization routines, they didn’t work as advertised.
For example, when I did the Coan/Phillipi routine, somehow after doing 95% of my max, I couldn’t even hit 97.5% the next week!
Do you know how discouraging that was? To spend 8 weeks doing something and miss your rep? A week later I couldn’t even hit 100% of my old DL! My deadlift was more pathetic than it was when I started!
Then I started reading and studying the conjugate method.
Instead of the bullshit, let’s pull out the calculator and see what the fuck is 97.5% of 425, I could do lots of different exercises and leave the calculator at home for doing my bills.
Now back to the questions: At the time when I did the 400*3 GM, I weighed 220 at 6 foot tall; now I am skinner as I weigh 185, so obviously I never was big.
For the 400*3, these were arched back gms done to maybe 15-30 degrees above parallel (it was last summer, so it is a bit hazy…)
For parallel, more round back ones, I probably used less weight, maybe mid 300’s or so.
I built them up after I had a solid foundation by hitting 3’s and sometimes singles too. If you do them for low reps and pay lots of attention to them, they will move.
Unofortunately, you will get a lot of looks and comments from poofs and fitness pencilnecks who will tell you that you will fuck up your back, but as my trainer used to say “they don’t know what the fuck they are talking about” as long as your form is good.
[/quote]
Wow, like everyone else stated you 3 guys have unreal strength. I’ll keep pushing at it but I don’t think I’ll ever get much past the 200 lb mark.
[quote]as wrote:
Wow, like everyone else stated you 3 guys have unreal strength. I’ll keep pushing at it but I don’t think I’ll ever get much past the 200 lb mark.[/quote]
You certainly won’t with that attitude. Why limit yourself?
[quote]gojira wrote:
I would love to be able to do GM’s heavy, but I have this odd problem. I suppose it’s because I don’t have as much meat on my back as you guys do. But as I get up to 135 I always wind up getting “knurled”.
In other words, as the weight gets heavier, it bites into my flesh. Yes, I have my shoulder blades together and my elbows back. No, it’s not sitting on my neck. Maybe I just need to suck it up and accept the pain and torn flesh.
Anyone else have this problem?
Don’t tell me to use a pad. I don’t use pads. [/quote]
Do you think it might just be the grip on the bar?
We have one bar at our gym that has newer grip, and even when I squat with it, it digs into my shoulders and leaves marks where no other bar does.
I’ve always had a problem with the bar starting to roll before I feel like I went down far enough.
I was wondering if I could use the “Sting Ray” (that’s used for front squats), but put it backwards to hold the bar. The Manta Ray would probably put the bar too high IMO.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
as wrote:
Wow, like everyone else stated you 3 guys have unreal strength. I’ll keep pushing at it but I don’t think I’ll ever get much past the 200 lb mark.
You certainly won’t with that attitude. Why limit yourself?[/quote]
Exactly. I think a lot of it is just in our minds (to an extent).
At the Test Fest, I asked Dave Tate a question and he asked what my max squat was. I told him it was around 415, and he said that by simply improving my form
I’d be able to get 100lbs more than that right now.
With that in my mind, I tried more weight and was able to get my low box squat up to 455 within a few weeks of him telling me that (not 100lbs, but still, I liked the improvement).
Try finding videos of people your height and weight lifting a lot more weight than you with good mornings and just seeing that may make you feel less intimidated my the weight.
I used to be very intimidated by seeing 405 on the bar with 45s (for squats), but once I got passed it, adding weight seemed easier. I think a lot of it was a mental block.
[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
I used to be very intimidated by seeing 405 on the bar with 45s (for squats), but once I got passed it, adding weight seemed easier. I think a lot of it was a mental block.[/quote]
Not to sound like a pussy, but for some people it’s just seeing the 45’s loaded on. Some people will respond to just using a 25 and 2 tens better than a plate.
it seems like when i do GM i feel like the bar is going to roll off my back. how do i fix this and does anybody else get this feeling?
my best good morning (240kg) is actually bigger than my best squat and deadlift (yes my sq and dl are weakass for my BW. embarassing. also probably why my squats always turn into good mornings once i’m out of the hole).
To those who are having trouble going heavy, I’d say get the bar low on your traps and your grip out wide and try to almost mimic your DL form (if you pull conventional). I also find a med stance better than the wide stance.
some people also try to go too low and keep their legs too straight - the pics on elitefts and robertson’s articles here are a good guide; and I remember there was a vid on some site called ‘powerlifting heads up’ or something.
[quote]gojira wrote:
I would love to be able to do GM’s heavy, but I have this odd problem. I suppose it’s because I don’t have as much meat on my back as you guys do. But as I get up to 135 I always wind up getting “knurled”.
In other words, as the weight gets heavier, it bites into my flesh. Yes, I have my shoulder blades together and my elbows back. No, it’s not sitting on my neck. Maybe I just need to suck it up and accept the pain and torn flesh.
Anyone else have this problem?
Don’t tell me to use a pad. I don’t use pads. [/quote]
Dude what are your stats?? 135 seems kind of low to be leaving bite marks. I am not trying to dog on ya but I was wondering if maybe your upper back development may need help. I do not get the bite marks until I hit around 315 or so. I am 5’8" and 220. I feel that my upper back development helps to ward off the marks until I hit the heavier weights.
I agree on the pad thing though, never use it. Keep at man.