Going Back to Full Body

Training Bodybuilding
21

That Bill Starr routine is an “intermediate” version…before you do that you should be pretty comfortable doing sets of bodyweight pullups, or even pullups with weight added…be able to do work sets with more than bw squat and good deep form…and bench bw or more for work sets.

That’s my definition of intermediate. Don’t fool yourself if you aren’t.

Also I tend to disagree with Sentoguy about staying with the same cycle for more than 8 weeks. He (must be) seems to be someone who gets results from LONG term programs…I stagnate after 4-6 weeks no matter what if it’s not changed somewhat. 5x5 for 8 weeks sounds like time for a change to me.

That’s not to say sento isn’t necessarily correct about your diet. I just think you should do both or figure out for yourself.

22

[quote]conwict wrote:
That Bill Starr routine is an “intermediate” version…before you do that you should be pretty comfortable doing sets of bodyweight pullups, or even pullups with weight added…be able to do work sets with more than bw squat and good deep form…and bench bw or more for work sets.

That’s my definition of intermediate. Don’t fool yourself if you aren’t.
[/quote]

I would actually agree with that statement. If you’re a beginner, do a beginner’s routine. That being said, a 5x5 (25 reps total) scheme can apply to both beginners and intermediates. It’s more a matter of the details and how the program is outlined that will make it more appropriate for either.

So, with that in mind, it’s true that we still haven’t actually seen what Droogan has been doing in the way of his 5x5 routine.

Droogan,

can you actually post the routine that you’ve been doing?

[quote]
Also I tend to disagree with Sentoguy about staying with the same cycle for more than 8 weeks. He (must be) seems to be someone who gets results from LONG term programs…I stagnate after 4-6 weeks no matter what if it’s not changed somewhat. 5x5 for 8 weeks sounds like time for a change to me.

That’s not to say sento isn’t necessarily correct about your diet. I just think you should do both or figure out for yourself.[/quote]

To be perfectly honest, I used to think the same way. I was also under the impression that I had to switch up programs often in order to see continual progress. Then I looked around and realized that of the guys who were really big and strong none of them switched up programs as frequently as I was doing (about every 8 weeks).

The more I learned and the more I really thought about it, the more I realized that my stagnation after 8 weeks had nothing to do with the programs that I was doing and everything to do with my nutritional habits. Once I actually got serious about nutrition, all of the sudden programs just kept working well past the 8 week mark.

The whole idea that your body will somehow stop growing from using the same set/rep schemes, rest periods, frequency, etc… if you are continually putting the body under progressive amounts of stress in the way of weight added to the bar, is quite frankly a complete misunderstanding/overcomplication of the overload principle and the entire muscle building process IMO.

Some might say otherwise, and for anyone who is actually hyooge and has gotten there this way in a relatively short period of time I commend you. But I can honestly cite countless bodybuilders (both famous and people who I actually know and have trained with) who have been doing pretty much the same program for literally years and have built huge, impressive, strong physiques from doing so. They never seemed to find the need to change up every so many weeks, and to be honest if dietary factors are in order, I doubt that many do either (except perhaps the most elite athletes who actually need to develop multiple athletic qualities).

Sorry if that steps on anyone’s toes. It’s just my opinion from the observations I’ve made from the real world. In closing I will still say to do what works for you, regardless of whether that agrees or disagrees with what I have just said.

Just something to think about.

23

Good post Sentoguy. My honest opinion about the “changing it up” people that like it so much is that it’s primarily a psychological thing. You read the latest CT article and get psyched up, and kick ass on it the first month making progress until that initial fire starts to wittle away. Chad writes a new article and you try that out, wow great results again, weight is climbing and you look a little leaner. Was it the program switch or was it the fact that you 100% believed in your new program and were busting your ass at it? I tend to lean towards option number two with one small(sort of) ammendmant to that.

Having said that changing things when you are stagnant IS a good idea. I know how Sentoguy trains and there is a built in no stagnation policy and solution so this isn’t directed towards him. However most people once they stall on an exercise dump the whole program which is not what we want. Look at the way powerlifters train, they don’t all train the same, some templates are popular like Westside but not every lifter is doing the same thing.

Watch a log over at EFS for awhile. If say Justin Harris is training for a meet and is doing a shirted bench movement, board presses, light shoulder work and some triceps that might be working for awhile. Say he sets a shirt PR. If he stalls at that PR for awhile he’s not going to dump board presses and should work and triceps is he? He’s going to look at what is working for him, figure out what isn’t and make the necessary changes. Maybe his triceps are the strong but his lats are weak, in stays the board presses light shoulders and triceps work, back work inreases in some fashion.

Bodybuilders don’t do this for the most part however and they really need to take a page from powerlifters on this one.

24

Right on Scott.

I too am of the belief that it’s the effort that one puts into the program, and the nutritional/rest habits of that individual that are most responsible for progress (and of course the genetic component, but that’s out of our control).

I’m also not arguing against changing things if they stagnate. But I also agree with you (as I’m sure you already guessed) that there’s no need to “throw the baby out with the bathwater” so to speak and completely change programs. I find it very hard to believe that someone with good nutritional habits who is really putting all of their effort into a program is going to completely stagnate after only a month or two. Sure, maybe a lift, or a couple of lifts might plateau, but in that case just change those lifts.

I also did put sort of an amendment at the end of my post concerning elite level athletes. But then this is the bodybuilding section, so while true it’s also not all that relevant to the subject at hand.

Here’s another problem that I have with Droogan switching programs right now. Let’s say that he does and he tries to work on his nutrition. And let’s say that he once again starts gaining. Was it the program switch or the diet that was responsible? In truth he probably won’t know for sure.

IMO it would be better to change as little as possible (keep the same program) and instead just change his nutritional habits. That way there will be no question about whether what he’s doing diet wise is working or not.

Once he is really confident and practiced on how to eat to gain, then sure he can feel free to experiment with different programs to find out what he really enjoys doing. But at this point I really feel that getting his eating down will be of more benefit in the long run.

25

First off, I really want to thank you guys for the EXCELLENT incite. Sorry I haven’t been able to pop in and reply, it’s finals week for me and I’ve been under a lot of stress. Anyways. I’ll try to be as honest here as possible. I’ll post up at the bottom my old 5x5 routine that I was following. But, first let me give you guys a little background:

Flashback to last September where I was around 200-2005 lbs. playing football for my junior college. I had a decent amount of lean mass, and my body fat wasn’t to high, I could see a slight outline of the abs. However, during the season, I started obsessing over my body fat (a BIG mistake, which I’m told happens to some). I wasn’t eating like crap at all, but then I thought I try to get smart and REALLY tweak my diet to be as “clean” as possible. As I probably don’t have to tell you guys, that was a huge mistake. I started to lose mass and eventually found myself aroun 188 lbs. in February. Funny, because I don’t think I became any “leaner”.

Anyway, I just got over frustrated and got completely off track and stopped lifting seriously. I still tried to watch my “diet” and eventually was at 173 lbs. this September .

I decided that I needed to stop this ridiculousness and start getting back into lifting. The sad part is, all in all, my BF level was probably hardly any smaller then it was in Football (maybe 2-3%) less, but I had no mass on my frame. So is where we begin in the first post. I started from September to November doing a 3x10 full body routine, and eating more then I had before. I don’t think it was that I was eating that much, but that I had malnourished myself so bad before, my body put on about 7 lbs. from just those few months.

The reason why I’m so I bent out of shape of BF is that I used to be a pudgy kid, and from that developed a slight case gyno. I think subconsciously I worry about BF so much because I don’t want to be like that again, even when I was built like a rock in sports.

I posted a thread on my nutrition in the correct section in this forum, but didn’t get to many replies. Let me show you the 5x5 I had been working on:

http://bounddatabase.bravehost.com/workout2.html

Sorry if I sound like a need to be spoon fed, but I sort of came on here for guidance from people that know better then me. I have to get back to studying, but I’ll try to be back to the nutrition program I’d been following. Again, thanks guys.

26

Ok, so looking at your program you’ve been basically doing a Push/Pull (with the exception of squats on the pull day, which I would generally put on the “push” day).

IMO push/pull is a great program format for building muscle. You do seem to be doing some “less” beneficial exercises IMO, but that’s not to say that you can’t still continue to gain with them in your program.

You’re also not alone in your fear to gain bf. That’s something I see quite frequently in people who used to have high bf’s and worked them down. And honestly I’m not suggesting that you return to that bf.

You don’t need to get sumo wrestler fat to build muscle, you simply need to eat enough to support growth and recovery.

Your training and the scale should let you know if you’re eating enough. If you find that you stagnate quickly (like after a month or two) or your weight doesn’t increase (try not to obsess about this, perhaps check it once every two weeks at the same time of day on the same day of the week, basically try to take as many variables out of the equation as possible) then you’ll know that you’re not eating enough.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

27

Thanks, that’s some excellent advice. So what I gather from your post is that I should continue with my 4 day a weeks program that I posted? What exercises do think I should change up.

Is there any chance someone on here would be willing to help me with a diet? So far it was looking like this:

8:00AM - 12oz. 2% milk / 2 scoops EAS protein / 1 cup oats

CLASS

11:30 - 1 yolk, 4 whites / 1 slice turkey / 2 pieces of multi-grain bread / 1 Banana / multi-vitamin / 5g creatine

WORKOUT

2:30 - 1 cup of oats + 2 scoops EAS protein + 1 banana + 12oz. 2% milk blended + 5g creatine / multi-vitamin

5:00 - 3 slices turkey + two pieces of multi-grain bread / handful of almonds /2 fish oil caps

7:30 - Meat dish (1/2 lb. salmon, 2 top loin filets, 2 chicken breasts) / 1 yam / salad or peas and carrots

10:30 - 8oz. 2% milk / handful of almonds / 1 tbsp. peanut butter / 2 fish oil caps / 3 ZMA caps

Now, on this I gained early on like I said, then I just tapered off (actually it seemed like I was gaining some BF.

28

Is this to much to be eating? Any adjustments would be appreciated!

29

[quote]Droogan Leader wrote:
Is this to much to be eating? Any adjustments would be appreciated![/quote]

That’s not really something that we can tell you over the internet (or really even something we could tell you in person).

Basically you just need to ask yourself a couple questions:

  1. is that much food allowing you to gain weight?

  2. is that much food causing you to gain too much of the wrong kind of weight (you’ll need to monitor your bf with a bf test, or with a mirror)?

If the answer to number 1 is no, then it’s not enough and you need to eat more. If the answer to number two is yes, then you you either need to decrease the calories slightly, or increase the amount of cardio that you’re doing.

It’s pretty much that simple.

30

Can’t we make it more complicated Sentoguy? haha. I’ve been loosely following this thread but honestly Sento is saying everything I would. Turn your body into an experiment and make the changes as needed(isolate those changes to see which ones are causing the effects) to move towards your desired goal at a rate you are comfortable with.

31

Maybe I can chime in with some experience.

Men that have been fat will deal with 2 issues.

  1. You need a caloric excess to gain weight
  2. You need carbs to gain strenght

Issue 1 will make you feel full, thus remembering your former fat days. Issue 2 will make you hold on to much more water (nature of insulin) thus making you feel bloated and fat.

I see several issues that can be improved within your diet. 1st is that you have more calories in the afternoon than in the morning. Generally this is not good because we tend to lower our BMR in preparation for sleep. Perhaps you do it unconsciously or you don’t have the habit of eating heavy breakfast.

2nd is that unless I am miscalculatinng the sizes or you are smaller than I think your protein consumption is lower than what it should be. Then again I just calculated it by eye. You need protein at regular intervals during the day for your body to use it.

I Also see that when you have classes there is no feeding. That is also bad because it sends signal to the brain to store into fat.

As for your workout it could do some changes with respect to compound lifts and a little less cardio. I like whole body or upper/lower splits for mass and strenght. However for cardio when building mass I prefer early morning and some medium intensity on off days. Not too much HIIT. Too much cardio increases cortisol levels if you don’t get enough rest/sleep??

With that said if you could wake up 1 or 2hours earlier and do the following:

6:00 Power Walk 30min

6:30 2 whole eggs with milk and whole wheat bread or oats

8:00AM - 2 scoops EAS protein in water

CLASS (drink 12oz jug with protein powder in milk)

11:30 - 4 whites / 1 slice turkey / 2 pieces of multi-grain bread / 1 Banana / multi-vitamin / 5g creatine

WORKOUT

2:30 - 1 cup of oats 2 scoops EAS protein + 1 banana + 12oz. 2% milk blended + 5g creatine / multi-vitamin

4:30 - 3 slices turkey / handful of almonds /2 fish oil caps

6:30 - Meat dish (1/2 lb. salmon, 2 top loin filets, 2 chicken breasts) / 1 yam / salad or peas and carrots

9:00 - 50g of cottage cheese / handful of almonds / 2 fish oil caps / 3 ZMA caps

9:30 SLEEP

This would be for your training days. How do you manage your carbs on your off days? You could use the time when not working for medium intensity cardio or sleeping.

IMO the trick to maintain decent bodyfat while gaining muscle lies in the off days. Try to consume more carbs in your training days than in your off days. Trick is to do the early cardio to get your metabolism moving in the morning, eat your carbs early and get that protein inside of you so the body processes it.

32

I really like that diet you have posted up for me. I’m not one to meddle, but I think I might bump it up an hour (7:00AM Wake/10:30 Sleep) since I have school and tend to work a little later at night with homework.

As far as my off day (Wednesday), I don’t take in too many calories since I’m really inactive. Should I be taking naps to catch up on sleep? I’m not really managing my carbs at all during my off days. What should I change lifts wise?

I must not be eating enough, because I’ve only gone up about ~8 lbs. in 4 months. Doesn’t that seem like to little?

33

5x5 is primarily a strength building routine. It’s not hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is usually in the 8-12 rep range.

Of course you weren’t getting huge. You were doing the wrong rep range.

TBT et al. SUCK. I say this from experience.

34

[quote]kroby wrote:
5x5 is primarily a strength building routine. It’s not hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is usually in the 8-12 rep range.

Of course you weren’t getting huge. You were doing the wrong rep range.

TBT et al. SUCK. I say this from experience.[/quote]

Ok, and what would you say causes hypertrophy? What’s the stimulus? Progressive overload right? As in more weight on the bar. Therefore, in order to build substantial amounts of hypertrophy one must increase their strength (lift more weight over time).

The notion that 5x5 isn’t a hypertrophy “range” while 8-12 is, is a little misleading. Both will cause increases in hypertrophy if nutrition is sufficient and one is continually adding weight to the bar. Really any rep range will cause SOME hypertrophy.

Now, it is true that really low reps cause a lot of neurological improvements and really high reps don’t really stress the fast twitch fibers. It’s also true that different people respond better to different rep ranges. So, while I understand where you’re coming from, you really can’t make blanket statements like that.

As for your last statement, once again that is an individual matter. Not every program is going to work optimally for every individual. Hopefully you’ve found something that works better for you.

35

I wish one of the guys that have done starting strength would chime in here about how much muscle they didn’t put on… wait… I’m getting something here. A bunch of people gain a ton of size when they learn how to squat bench power clean and row and put significant pounds on the bar? Hmmm ok.

This just in, getting stronger for reps on big exercises and eating alot will make you large.

36

[quote]Scott M wrote:
I wish one of the guys that have done starting strength would chime in here about how much muscle they didn’t put on… wait… I’m getting something here. A bunch of people gain a ton of size when they learn how to squat bench power clean and row and put significant pounds on the bar? Hmmm ok.

This just in, getting stronger for reps on big exercises and eating alot will make you large. [/quote]

They do?!!!

And to think all this time I’ve been focusing on rep speed, doing endless sets of multiple exercises to hit the muscle from every conceivable angle, and making sure that I’m doing my standing isolation exercises while standing on a bosu ball to make sure I stay functional. Why?!!! Why?!!! [/sarcasm]

:wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

37

Exactly. Even though I’m struggling to put on mass (mainly due to my diet), there is no doubt that I put on a some SOLID pounds in the last 4 months from a 5x5 routine. Even if I haven’t gone up dramatically in weight, my strength has increased enormously. Proof:

173 lbs. September
Bench = 185 X3
Squat = 225 X3
Deadlift = 185 X3

181 lbs. December
Bench = 225 X3
Squat = 330 x3
Deadlift = 285 x3

38

Those are some great strength gains. By the way, why do you keep calling your program a 5x5? You stated this was your program: http://bounddatabase.bravehost.com/workout2.html . I don’t see any exercise in there that has 5 sets of 5 reps.

I’m not saying it’s a bad program or anything. I’m just confused as to why you consider it a 5x5 program.

Oh and I second Sentoguy’s opinion that you stay on the same program and change your diet. That way, you’ll see if the diet really was your problem. If you’re still not making gains with your increased calories and the same program then I suggest Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos (as someone else stated).

39

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, and what would you say causes hypertrophy? What’s the stimulus? Progressive overload right? As in more weight on the bar. Therefore, in order to build substantial amounts of hypertrophy one must increase their strength (lift more weight over time).

The notion that 5x5 isn’t a hypertrophy “range” while 8-12 is, is a little misleading. Both will cause increases in hypertrophy if nutrition is sufficient and one is continually adding weight to the bar. Really any rep range will cause SOME hypertrophy.[/quote]

I agree with Sento, but there’s a bit more. To make certain rep ranges hypertrophy-friendly you have to do them right.

5x5 with 3 to 5-minute rests between each set will be very much a strength (only?) routine. To get the hypertrophy, you would need to work on shortening your rest periods to something like 30-45 seconds — certainly no more than a minute.

This way you will benefit from accumlated byproducts of fatigue (lactic acid build-up), which lead to growth.

Regards,
Scott