God Created...................

[pookie]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Why is it so hard to find even a single secular source of support?

Josephus, Tacticus, Pliny and many others. [/quote]

Well, I tried discussing Josephus with you, but you avoid or ignore my arguments and then reintroduce him as support.

[quote]You keep giving me Christians witnessing,

Someones followers are not credible because YOU say so?[/quote]

No, because they’ve already drunk the Kool-Aid so to speak. They already hold the firm belief that Jesus existed, so they can’t play the part of neutral bystanders. Conflict of interest and all that…

[quote]Everyone else’s followers are allowed to write about their “leader.” But for some reason you just don’t want to read anything from those who walked with Jesus Christ.

The bar gets raised to a nutty level when Christ is involved because you seem to hate him.[/quote]

Well extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We’re not discussing any ordinary guy here. Jesus was supposedly the Son of God; performer of miracles, healer of the sick, preacher, teacher, etc. We’re supposed to accept him only based on the word of his disciples?

[quote]A military leader is allowed to be mentioned in military documents.

A political leaderis allowed to be mentioned in political documents.

But Jesus Christ is not allowed to be mentioned in Church documents?[/quote]

Military and political leaders do not generally make claims of the supernatural. If they did, I’d ask for the same stringent evidence before I bought any of it.

Once again the bar is raised to a ridiculous level because YOU don’t like Jesus Christ.

I have nothing against him personally. I was actually reading about him when I came upon the “historical Jesus” controversy. Of course, all the Christian sites dismiss it as irrelevant, but I find the evidence, or more precisely, the lack of it interesting. That’s why I brought it up.

Previously, I was quite comfortable with the notion of an historical (albeit non-divine) Jesus. But if there’s no evidence of his actual existence, why bother?

[quote]and secular forgeries.

Yes, I am aware that some historians think that “some” of what Josephus wrote is forged. Yet, “some” think that it is real.[/quote]

Again, look at the facts:

1. Just about everyone quoting Josephus quotes the same 127 word paragraph that conveniently confirms the entire life story of Jesus. It’d be hard to resume it in less word without leaving something important out.

2. That paragraph is mentioned by no other historian until the 4th century. So, somehow, we must believe that Josephus wrote that near the 1st century but that no one noticed it until 300 years later? Even other historians who abundantly quoted Josephus never quote that paragraph.

Isn’t that odd? Before the 4th century, no one ever quotes that paragraph. After the 4th century, nobody quotes anything but that paragraph.

Try it. Put “Josephus Jesus” in a search engine and just about every site referenced talks about that paragraph.

[quote]What about the many other Roman historians who have mentioned Jesus Christ?

Are they all forged too?[/quote]

No, because starting from the 4th century on, they site the older forgeries themselves, honestly propagating them.

In those days, you didn’t have the tools we now possess with the printing press, public libraries and the internet. A little forgery went a long way.

There might come a point where you wake up…yep.

[quote]How is it that other famous people without churches or followers managed to leave abundant traces, but Jesus left none at all?

Please name some people from over 2000 years ago who were not famous at the time of their existence in any way (money, politics, royalty, authors etc.) who have a rich record of their history recorded.

Go ahead I’ll wait…[/quote]

Read the rest of Josephus. If you just count the Jesuses, he mentions 19 of them who where contemporaries, or close to it to Jesus.

Those aren’t “rich” records, but they’re richer than what the mythical Jesus has, outside of the Bible.

There is actually no “evidence” which supports that wacky notion.

Why is there some apparent forgery of Josephus’ writings then? Who altered them and to what end?

Oh there are some big mouth atheists who really really want Jesus Christ not to have lived.

I just want the truth. If it’s true that Jesus never lived, wouldn’t you want to know? You’d rather keep believing a lie?

there are also those who think we (the US) bombed the World Trade Towers. Oh and they have lot’s of “evidence.”

Yes, but you can examine their evidence and point to the faults in it. Conspiracy theorist aren’t generally very difficult to debunk if you’re well informed.

In our case, the conspiracy theorists have founded a Church.

They’re still not that hard to debunk.

[pookie]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
And that’s exactly how the Jews would have described him! I’ll say it again for you: They didn’t like him! He was a trouble maker in their eyes![/quote]

So, basically, their Holy Book is wrong about Jesus?

And they took their shots at him. That actually PROVES that he existed.

They could take shots at a myth, seeing on how it was accumulating followers.

Some people take potshots at Scientology. That doesn’t make it a “valid” religion.

Think about it “bastard son” as he was “conceived” prior to Joseph having had sex with Mary.

You mean Joseph married Mary, but never consumed the marriage? Yeah, whatever.

Also, isn’t it true that in Hebrew, the word used for “virgin” is better translated as “young woman,” and that the virginity of Mary only became an article of faith within the Church in something like 600AD?

[quote]Everyone acts as if there’s been only one Jesus in the whole history of the world.

Pookie you got me smiling again.[/quote]

Yeah, the monkeys at the zoo do that a lot too.

How many others by the name of “Jesus” do you think drew the attention of the Jewish population? And how many others would have been conceived out of wedlock? How many would have been noted as a “rebel” by these same people?

Josephus again: 19 Jesuses, quite a few preachers, rebels and agitators. Even one crucified. Look it up.

If this were the only piece of evidence then you might have a point. But all you have to do is start linking all of the pieces together. And then add them up with the Bibilical letters and BANG! You have a conclusion: Jesus Christ lived!

Yes, that’s because you conveniently avoid any evidence to the contrary. Me, I take it all and come to a quite difference conclusion: No actual Jesus. A good story, yes. But a myth, no more.

pookie you would make a lousy detective!

And your evidence wouldn’t stand up in court.

[quote]Shit, I had a Jesus in my class in 3rd grade; I’m pretty sure he wasn’t the one from the Bible.

Um…no I think that’s a safe bet.

And if you and I tried to start a following around that kid and LIED and said he was God I bet neither one of us would DIE sticking to that lie huh?[/quote]

People have started hundreds of religions throughout the centuries. It’s not that hard.

The easier way is to start an “offshoot” from an established one (like the Protestants off the Catholics, or the Sunni and Shiites in Islam, or Joseph Smith and the Mormons (Jesus visited America, did you know?)

You can also start “fresh” religions like Scientology or the Raelian movement. They both have numerous followers; not as much as Jesus has, but who can tell how much they’ll have in 2000 years?

THINK

I do. Do you?

[terribleivan]

[quote]pookie wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
How much of the Bible have you actually read, pookie?

A fairly large part of it. In two languages.

How much of the supporting liturature for the Bible have you actually read, pookie?

It needs supporting litterature? I’ve read a few Chick tracts. Does that count?

I gather you know far less than you claim.

Don’t we all?

And, as I asked on a previous thread, if you have absoulte proof that God does not exist, please share it.

You know as well as I do that proving God’s existence or inexistence is impossible.

At best, people can try to make a convincing case either way, but it won’t be on the level of a “proof.”

If you don’t then you have to admit that, by faith, you choose to no believe in God. Either road takes faith my young friend.

Well, I don’t feel it’s faith, but feel free to label it as such if it makes you feel more secure. Or happy. Or whatever.

I don’t believe in unicorns, vampires or dragons. Does that require faith?

I don’t believe Santa Claus actually exists, even though we see dozens of them every December. Faith again?

I think Batman and Hulk are fictional characters, but I guess that’s just my faith.

I don’t believe Odin exists; nor do Jupiter/Zeus, Ahura Mazda, Allah, Osiris, Horus, Baal, Satan or God. Those non-beliefs are similar to the lack of belief in Santa, Batman and unicorns.

So, call it what you want.[/quote]

Ahhh. So we’re finally getting to the root of the problem. I don’t know what kind of person wouldn’t believe in Santa Claus!

But seriously, unless you have the interpretation of the Holy Spirit when you’ve read the Bible in two languages, you’ve missed EVERYTHING that you need to know. I know - I’ve been there.

So sad. You spend so much time trying to discredit God that you fail to see what is right in front of you.

In your wisdom, pookie, what is the meaning of this life?

[ZEB]

[quote]pookie wrote:

I have nothing against him personally. I was actually reading about him when I came upon the “historical Jesus” controversy. Of course, all the Christian sites dismiss it as irrelevant, but I find the evidence, or more precisely, the lack of it interesting. That’s why I brought it up.[/quote]

Being an Atheist to begin with maybe you were just a tad easy to convince on this point, yes?

Also, maybe you have noticed (I know I have) that along with the Internet we get every single wacky theory that ever existed shoved in our face. Those of us who are vulnerable to certain things gobble this nutty stuff up.

Here are some other good sites that we can all enjoy:

-Barefoot running (It’s better than running with shoes you know).

-Obesity is good! (Those of us who actually try to take care of our bodies don’t understand the harm we are doing).

-Mountain living. (It’s better and safer to live inside of a mountain. Lot’s of protection from different things).

I have not ever scratched the surface. There must be over 1000 wacky web sites which will tell you just about anything that you want to hear.

Even for those who don’t believe the volumes of evidence are enormous for the existance of Christ.

But I suppose in a world where up is down. Black is white, and bad is good…This doesn’t surprise me.

[ZEB]

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
And that’s exactly how the Jews would have described him! I’ll say it again for you: They didn’t like him! He was a trouble maker in their eyes!

So, basically, their Holy Book is wrong about Jesus?[/quote]

Their book put a spin on Jesus…But they acknowledge him!

Also, isn’t it true that in Hebrew, the word used for “virgin” is better translated as “young woman,” and that the virginity of Mary only became an article of faith within the Church in something like 600AD?

pookie I beg you to stay away from the nutty “anti-Christian” web sites.

The Hebrew word for
Virgin is “parthenos” (par-then’-os). Which means “maiden” or “unmarried daughter.” That was their word for someone who had not yet had sex. In other words: a virgin.

Everyone acts as if there’s been only one Jesus in the whole history of the world.

Pookie you got me smiling again.

Yeah, the monkeys at the zoo do that a lot too.

How many others by the name of “Jesus” do you think drew the attention of the Jewish population? And how many others would have been conceived out of wedlock? How many would have been noted as a “rebel” by these same people?

Josephus again: 19 Jesuses, quite a few preachers, rebels and agitators. Even one crucified. Look it.[/quote]

No wait that couldn’t be! Remember the nutty theory about the Christians tampering with Josephus work? That means they would have taken all of the others out of there because it may have raised a question who the real one was.

You can’t have it both ways pookie.

[quote] People have started hundreds of religions throughout the centuries. It’s not that hard.

The easier way is to start an “offshoot” from an established one (like the Protestants off the Catholics, or the Sunni and Shiites in Islam, or Joseph Smith and the Mormons (Jesus visited America, did you know?)

You can also start “fresh” religions like Scientology or the Raelian movement. They both have numerous followers; not as much as Jesus has, but who can tell how much they’ll have in 2000 years?
[/quote]

Starting a religion is easy. And many do exist. However, how many of the great (as in long lasting, large and had an impact) world religions founders claim to have been God, healed sicke people and raised others from the dead? That would be ONE.

And by the way if it’s so very easy to fake all of this how come no one else ever faked it?

I mean we have ONE Jesus Christ, which is the base of Christianity.

Also, you never got back to me as to why early Christians would make up a man by the name of Jesus and then thousands die for the lie that they made up.

People lie to benefit themselves not to die.

As I have stated already: you would make a lousy detective pookie.

[ZEB]

pookie,

The Evidence that Jesus Christ lived is overwhelming!

Not so for some of the worlds other great religions:

"The biographies of Jesus stand up to any scrutiny and have credible corroborating external evidences to confirm it. Applying the legal-historical evidential method, the Bible surpasses all other ancient documentation of any religions.

For example, the first biography of Buddha, who lived in the 6th century B.C., was only written in the 1st century A.D. Its scriptures were not put into writing until after the Christian era. The biography of Muhammad was not written until 767 A.D., more than a full century after his death. Its earliest manuscripts such as Sira only written in approximately 833A.D., Hadith in 870A.D., Tarikh and Tafsir in 923 A.D., after Muhammad?s companion and the 1st generation Muslims were dead.

Although the Gathas of Zoroaster, about 1000 B.C., are believed to be authentic, most of the Zoroastrian scriptures were only put into writing after the 3rd century A.D. Thus, their credibility and reliability are questionable."

pookie, if you are truly searching for evidence of Christ’s existance, and not playing a game, read this site it may help you in your search for the truth.

http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/5-1/4_TheLawofEvidence.htm

[pookie]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Ahhh. So we’re finally getting to the root of the problem. I don’t know what kind of person wouldn’t believe in Santa Claus![/quote]

Predictable. Once your “atheist faith” argument is shot down, pretend like it never happened and make some lame joke to change the topic. Typical juvenile tactic.

But seriously, unless you have the interpretation of the Holy Spirit when you’ve read the Bible in two languages, you’ve missed EVERYTHING that you need to know. I know - I’ve been there.

So first you question whether I’ve read the Bible, but when it turns out I did, then that reading is invalid because I wasn’t infused of the Holy Spirit. That’s a convenient cop-out. Childish, but convenient.

So sad. You spend so much time trying to discredit God that you fail to see what is right in front of you.

Blah blah blah. Are you always this insipid and boring? Why do you even bother?

In your wisdom, pookie, what is the meaning of this life?

To avoid wasting time discussing topics with idiots who can’t even dream of being able to debate intelligently. At least Zeb makes an effort.

[pookie]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Being an Atheist to begin with maybe you were just a tad easy to convince on this point, yes?[/quote]

I’d see it as being better able to evaluate it objectively, as I’m not blinded by faith. I can consider the evidence on its own merit and see where it leads. You, on the other hand, approach it with the goal of dismissing it at all cost.

Also, maybe you have noticed (I know I have) that along with the Internet we get every single wacky theory that ever existed shoved in our face. Those of us who are vulnerable to certain things gobble this nutty stuff up.

Here are some other good sites that we can all enjoy:

-Barefoot running (It’s better than running with shoes you know).

-Obesity is good! (Those of us who actually try to take care of our bodies don’t understand the harm we are doing).

-Mountain living. (It’s better and safer to live inside of a mountain. Lot’s of protection from different things).

I have not ever scratched the surface. There must be over 1000 wacky web sites which will tell you just about anything that you want to hear.

Here you go again with the straw man. Since you can’t seem to refute any of my arguments, you’ll compare “Historical Jesus” sites to other sites you don’t agree with and refute them?

That’s pretty weak Zeb.

Personally, I’d lump sites like Answersingenesis.com and AmazingFacts.com with the other idiot sites you’ve mentioned. I wouldn’t consider that a valid argument, though.

Even for those who don’t believe the volumes of evidence are enormous for the existence of Christ.

Outside the Bible, I fail to see “volumes of evidence.” The handul of early historians you’ve given me make a very weak case. And the later one keep citing Josephus, who’s the one with his authenticity the most in doubt. It’s not looking good.

Finding Jesus is apparently more difficult than playing “Where’s Charlie?”

But I suppose in a world where up is down. Black is white, and bad is good…This doesn’t surprise me.

More mischaracterizations, exaggerations, and on and on. I thought you’d be able to justify your faith better than this. All you seem able to do is beat up all the little straw men you keep setting up.

With evidence like this, no wonder you’ve got to get to the kids when they’re young. Adults would just laugh in your face.

[terribleivan]

[quote]pookie wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Ahhh. So we’re finally getting to the root of the problem. I don’t know what kind of person wouldn’t believe in Santa Claus!

Predictable. Once your “atheist faith” argument is shot down, pretend like it never happened and make some lame joke to change the topic. Typical juvenile tactic.

But seriously, unless you have the interpretation of the Holy Spirit when you’ve read the Bible in two languages, you’ve missed EVERYTHING that you need to know. I know - I’ve been there.

So first you question whether I’ve read the Bible, but when it turns out I did, then that reading is invalid because I wasn’t infused of the Holy Spirit. That’s a convenient cop-out. Childish, but convenient.

So sad. You spend so much time trying to discredit God that you fail to see what is right in front of you.

Blah blah blah. Are you always this insipid and boring? Why do you even bother?

In your wisdom, pookie, what is the meaning of this life?

To avoid wasting time discussing topics with idiots who can’t even dream of being able to debate intelligently. At least Zeb makes an effort.

[/quote]

You pander your little insults to avoid the questions ? nothing more. I have avoided nothing, and I will avoid nothing, in particular from weak-minded fools like you.

Did you forget how your little insult-fest started? You saw powerful evidence in creation that gave greater proof in the existence of God. And, like a coward, you practice verbal slight-of-hand to avoid it because it conflicts with your atheistic faith.

Don?t try to fool me or anyone else with your simple speech. You don?t wish to learn ? you wish to fight. And, like all the cowards before you, when the battle gets tough, you run leaving nothing more than a urine soaked reminder of your existence.

You are pathetic.

[terribleivan]

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Being an Atheist to begin with maybe you were just a tad easy to convince on this point, yes?

I’d see it as being better able to evaluate it objectively, as I’m not blinded by faith. I can consider the evidence on its own merit and see where it leads. You, on the other hand, approach it with the goal of dismissing it at all cost.

Also, maybe you have noticed (I know I have) that along with the Internet we get every single wacky theory that ever existed shoved in our face. Those of us who are vulnerable to certain things gobble this nutty stuff up.

Here are some other good sites that we can all enjoy:

-Barefoot running (It’s better than running with shoes you know).

-Obesity is good! (Those of us who actually try to take care of our bodies don’t understand the harm we are doing).

-Mountain living. (It’s better and safer to live inside of a mountain. Lot’s of protection from different things).

I have not ever scratched the surface. There must be over 1000 wacky web sites which will tell you just about anything that you want to hear.

Here you go again with the straw man. Since you can’t seem to refute any of my arguments, you’ll compare “Historical Jesus” sites to other sites you don’t agree with and refute them?

That’s pretty weak Zeb.

Personally, I’d lump sites like Answersingenesis.com and AmazingFacts.com with the other idiot sites you’ve mentioned. I wouldn’t consider that a valid argument, though.

Even for those who don’t believe the volumes of evidence are enormous for the existence of Christ.

Outside the Bible, I fail to see “volumes of evidence.” The handul of early historians you’ve given me make a very weak case. And the later one keep citing Josephus, who’s the one with his authenticity the most in doubt. It’s not looking good.

Finding Jesus is apparently more difficult than playing “Where’s Charlie?”

But I suppose in a world where up is down. Black is white, and bad is good…This doesn’t surprise me.

More mischaracterizations, exaggerations, and on and on. I thought you’d be able to justify your faith better than this. All you seem able to do is beat up all the little straw men you keep setting up.

With evidence like this, no wonder you’ve got to get to the kids when they’re young. Adults would just laugh in your face.
[/quote]

Is this another pathetic attempt to discredit Christianity because the people who care to provide information are Christians?

Let me guess - if it doesn’t coincide with your faith, you wont even read it. Seems to fit the remarks of someone who know everything. So wise in your own eyes, and so dumb to everyone else.

And you wonder why I won’t shed tears for you on the day of Judgement.

Weak-minded and pathetic.

[mazilla]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
mazilla wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You see 2000 years ago they didn’t have that. And on top of that NO ONE who was not somehow politically, acedemically, militarily or financially (or in some way) successful was written about.

what about jesus? he fiiled the above description.how many wars have been fought in his name? how many have to die before your name will carry on? how many lessons have been taught about “him”? how much money has been made by others using “his” name to their advantage? funny he sure fits that description of what it takes to have your name remebered. money,sorrow, murder, joy, all can be traced to “him”. i find it hard to believe that just because his name exists in history, he is god. hitler’s name will be remebered, how is that any different. at least there are not as many deaths attached to hitlers legacy.

p.s. fuck hitler, and all those who take the life of innocent people. so please don’t go saying i sympathize with that piece of shit.

Stop symathizing with Hitler!

Ha ha just kidding pal…I had to do it sorry.

Yes, of course Jesus Christ existed and glad to hear you admit it. Now what I would like you to do is think about who he was and “why” he existed. Try to think outside the box of traditional closed minded atheisim.

Your Friend,

Zeb[/quote]

i have a better idea, why don’t you tell me who he was and why he existed, except please refrain from using the bible as a source. i want to know who he is to you. i am sure you are not the type to believe in something because it is written, so there has to be some concrete proof that you have to justify that “he” does in fact exist. not because “the bible says so”.the pyramids of ancient egypt fail to mention the names of many of thier enemies, and usurped(spelling) kings, does that mean that they did not exist? what is written is not always true. especially in those ancient times. the will of one generally became the order of all.i can’t help but question the motive of religion. it would appear that it is in fact “the opiate of the masses”. what better way to control a poulation? the fear of eternal damnation is an excellent tool.finally, blind faith is a weakness in my book, you have to know why you are going to believe in something. simply because it is written cannot make it true. so i ask again, what is the foundation of your belief?

[pookie]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Their book put a spin on Jesus…But they acknowledge him![/quote]

So their Holy Book contains “spin,” but yours doesn’t? How come?

pookie I beg you to stay away from the nutty “anti-Christian” web sites.

Well any web site that questions any aspect of Christianity is by your definition “nutty.”

Is www.talkorigins.org nutty?

[quote]The Hebrew word for
Virgin is “parthenos” (par-then’-os). Which means “maiden” or “unmarried daughter.” That was their word for someone who had not yet had sex. In other words: a virgin.[/quote]

It’s not my intention to make you appear any more confused than you already are, but “parthenos” is Greek, not Hebrew.

Same root as that nice Greek building known as The Parthenon.

The Hebrew word is “almah”, O great linguist you.

[quote]Everyone acts as if there’s been only one Jesus in the whole history of the world.

Pookie you got me smiling again.

Yeah, the monkeys at the zoo do that a lot too.[/quote]

[quote]No wait that couldn’t be! Remember the nutty theory about the Christians tampering with Josephus work? That means they would have taken all of the others out of there because it may have raised a question who the real one was.

You can’t have it both ways pookie.[/quote]

Taking out all the other Jesuses would give away the forgery. Jesus was a pretty common name back then. Forgery works best when done subtly. A little 127 words paragraph has worked wonders.

Starting a religion is easy. And many do exist. However, how many of the great (as in long lasting, large and had an impact) world religions founders claim to have been God, healed sicke people and raised others from the dead? That would be ONE.

Come on, Zeb, you really must read up on the religions of the world. All those tricks had been done before, elsewhere by other mythical beings.

[quote]And by the way if it’s so very easy to fake all of this how come no one else ever faked it?

I mean we have ONE Jesus Christ, which is the base of Christianity.[/quote]

You’d be lucky to have ONE. Evidence seems to suggest ZERO as more probable.

Also, you never got back to me as to why early Christians would make up a man by the name of Jesus and then thousands die for the lie that they made up.

Most of the thousands who died later didn’t think of it as a lie; no more than you think of it as a lie. Once you place your faith in the myth, the deal is done.

They weren’t dying for a lie anymore than the 19 hijackers of 9/11 thought they were dying for a lie.

You really should put the “dying for” argument to rest. Pun intented.

People lie to benefit themselves not to die.

Well that’s true, but people who have faith in the Jesus myth don’t see the lie. Blinded by faith, remember?

As I have stated already: you would make a lousy detective pookie.

Yeah, you repeat yourself a lot. Hopefully, if I explain it to you enough time, you’ll eventually understand.

I’m full of hope for you Zeb.

[ZEB]

[quote]mazilla wrote:
ZEB wrote:
mazilla wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You see 2000 years ago they didn’t have that. And on top of that NO ONE who was not somehow politically, acedemically, militarily or financially (or in some way) successful was written about.

what about jesus? he fiiled the above description.how many wars have been fought in his name? how many have to die before your name will carry on? how many lessons have been taught about “him”? how much money has been made by others using “his” name to their advantage? funny he sure fits that description of what it takes to have your name remebered. money,sorrow, murder, joy, all can be traced to “him”. i find it hard to believe that just because his name exists in history, he is god. hitler’s name will be remebered, how is that any different. at least there are not as many deaths attached to hitlers legacy.

p.s. fuck hitler, and all those who take the life of innocent people. so please don’t go saying i sympathize with that piece of shit.

Stop symathizing with Hitler!

Ha ha just kidding pal…I had to do it sorry.

Yes, of course Jesus Christ existed and glad to hear you admit it. Now what I would like you to do is think about who he was and “why” he existed. Try to think outside the box of traditional closed minded atheisim.

Your Friend,

Zeb

i have a better idea, why don’t you tell me who he was and why he existed, except please refrain from using the bible as a source. i want to know who he is to you. i am sure you are not the type to believe in something because it is written, so there has to be some concrete proof that you have to justify that “he” does in fact exist. not because “the bible says so”.the pyramids of ancient egypt fail to mention the names of many of thier enemies, and usurped(spelling) kings, does that mean that they did not exist? what is written is not always true. especially in those ancient times. the will of one generally became the order of all.i can’t help but question the motive of religion. it would appear that it is in fact “the opiate of the masses”. what better way to control a poulation? the fear of eternal damnation is an excellent tool.finally, blind faith is a weakness in my book, you have to know why you are going to believe in something. simply because it is written cannot make it true. so i ask again, what is the foundation of your belief?
[/quote]

After reading your post, I would like to know why YOU think Jesus lived?

[ZEB]

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Their book put a spin on Jesus…But they acknowledge him!

So their Holy Book contains “spin,” but yours doesn’t? How come?[/quote]

How come some people tell the truth and others lie?

I want to know…HOW COME?

[quote]Same root as that nice Greek building known as The Parthenon.

The Hebrew word is “almah”, O great linguist you.[/quote]

You are correct…(phew finally…) I had the Hebrew next to the Greek and mistakenly typed in the Greek meaning of the word.

And I’m not a linguist or a Bible scholar, are you? No…I guess not.

Taking out all the other Jesuses would give away the forgery. Jesus was a pretty common name back then. Forgery works best when done subtly. A little 127 words paragraph has worked wonders.

LOL!

Come on, Zeb, you really must read up on the religions of the world. All those tricks had been done before, elsewhere by other mythical beings.

Name them.

[quote]Most of the thousands who died later didn’t think of it as a lie; no more than you think of it as a lie. Once you place your faith in the myth, the deal is done.

They weren’t dying for a lie anymore than the 19 hijackers of 9/11 thought they were dying for a lie.

You really should put the “dying for” argument to rest. Pun intented.[/quote]

You are quite wrong on that. Many were tortured and died during his time. Peter was actually crucified upside down. And he was happy about that because he said that he was not worthy to die in the same manner as Jesus did.

Many, many went to their deaths who would have had to make up those lies, such as Peter.

I ask again, why would so many so close make up a lie and then die for that lie?

People make up lies to gain something, what did Peter gain?

What did Paul gain by going through his trials and tribulations. His life was hardly what we would call “rewarding.”

Was he going through this for a lie? What did he gain from it?

You are not very logical pookie.

[quote]I’m full of hope for you Zeb.

[/quote]

And I for you my friend!

[ZEB]

pookie,

(This seems pretty logical to me. Are you a person of logic?)

The Evidence that Jesus Christ lived is overwhelming!

Not so for some of the worlds other great religions:

"The biographies of Jesus stand up to any scrutiny and have credible corroborating external evidences to confirm it. Applying the legal-historical evidential method, the Bible surpasses all other ancient documentation of any religions.

For example, the first biography of Buddha, who lived in the 6th century B.C., was only written in the 1st century A.D. Its scriptures were not put into writing until after the Christian era. The biography of Muhammad was not written until 767 A.D., more than a full century after his death. Its earliest manuscripts such as Sira only written in approximately 833A.D., Hadith in 870A.D., Tarikh and Tafsir in 923 A.D., after Muhammad?s companion and the 1st generation Muslims were dead.

Although the Gathas of Zoroaster, about 1000 B.C., are believed to be authentic, most of the Zoroastrian scriptures were only put into writing after the 3rd century A.D. Thus, their credibility and reliability are questionable."

pookie, if you are truly searching for evidence of Christ’s existance, and not playing a game, read this site it may help you in your search for the truth.

http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/5-1/4_TheLawofEvidence.htm[/quote]

[ZEB]

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Being an Atheist to begin with maybe you were just a tad easy to convince on this point, yes?

I’d see it as being better able to evaluate it objectively, as I’m not blinded by faith.[/quote]

You are at least as blinded by faith that there is no God as you claim that I am that there is one.

Let’s face it pookie you have put a lot of time effort and thought in “being right” regarding your own brand of faith.

[vroom]

[quote]And you wonder why I won’t shed tears for you on the day of Judgement.

Weak-minded and pathetic. [/quote]

Oh, look, it’s another Christian acting in a decidely un-Christian manner.

What a surprise!

I’ll submit that believing and failing to live up to your beliefs, is worse than not believing and still living a good honest life.

Burn baby, burn!

[mazilla]

i asked you specifically zeb, i am not attacking you here, i was just wondering what experience you had that made you so devoute that you feel the need to engage into argument with so many people? i hope it’s not that you just enjoy arguing, your smarter than that. please explain the beggining of it all. was it a peronal experiance, or a faith instilled in childhood? simple questions, i am not going to quote any references, because i don’t really have any. i can tell you that i went to a christian school for several years, as a teen. i have based my opinion on experiances that i have had within the faith. how did you get yours?

[ZEB]

[quote]mazilla wrote:
i asked you specifically zeb, i am not attacking you here, i was just wondering what experience you had that made you so devoute that you feel the need to engage into argument with so many people?[/quote]

Oh…I don’t know if I would call it “arguing.” Keep in mind where you are. What we do here …in this place called T-Nation is basically type back and forth to one another. It’s really the perfect ground for good debate.

And even if the debate is not so “good” it’s still …um pretty good.

i hope it’s not that you just enjoy arguing, your smarter than that.

I AM NOT!..Sorry just wanted to argue a bit…lol.

please explain the beggining of it all. was it a peronal experiance, or a faith instilled in childhood? simple questions, i am not going to quote any references, because i don’t really have any. i can tell you that i went to a christian school for several years, as a teen. i have based my opinion on experiances that i have had within the faith. how did you get yours?

Since this is somewhat beyond the scope of this thread (Zeb’s personal spiritual adventures etc.) Why don’t you PM me and I will be glad to talk.

Zeb

[terribleivan]

[quote]vroom wrote:
And you wonder why I won’t shed tears for you on the day of Judgement.

Weak-minded and pathetic.

Oh, look, it’s another Christian acting in a decidely un-Christian manner.

What a surprise!

I’ll submit that believing and failing to live up to your beliefs, is worse than not believing and still living a good honest life.

Burn baby, burn![/quote]

Keep those dumb comments coming! I love them!