I realize that this will probably not change anyone’s mind, but it’s something to ponder and discuss. Let’s do so seriously and civilly if possible.
Darwin on the Right
Why Christians and conservatives should accept evolution
I know the way we think of evolution and the time-line of evolution as it is now can never be reconcilable with the bible as we understand it. Does it mean evolution itself is wrong…no but it does mean we can not be related to apes or any animal lived before humans.
There are a millions different theories some that are reasonable…others moronic that explain different problems with the bible and evolution. I do not just accept ignorance but believe God reveals more in time. People think of the bible as stagnant and inferior to science but we haven’t come close to understanding the bible as a whole or understanding our own existence and our world.
nice try Mike - believing in evolution does not mean we came from apes. In fact evolution doesn’t even suggest exactly that (some of Darwin’s papers might suggest that, yet read the papers yourself and draw your own conclusions instead of hoping on the short bus because others are doing it). There are parts that have huge holes. Learning for example has no logical path. The knee comes from where? On the simplest biology, where does the complex eye come from? The lamprey into what? When you learn and understand science, then you might have a discussion with substance.
Second point, use the little box on the upper left of the screen and use the fucking search function. You believe yourself to be the originator of this subject? My God, grow the fuck up!
You have to be:
- High
- Retarded
- Retarded and High
- Drunk
- High, drunk, and retarded
To take what the bible says as the truth. I mean, how does church explain the preserved remains of human-like beings that date back thousands-millions of years? It can barely explain why priests have a fondness for little boys. There is a god but he’s either dead or playing an eternal game of bocce because he hasn’t cleaned out our tank and we are playing in our own shit now. Science…not a Christian god will give us hope (not science in the weird homosexual Tom Cruise way) for a better tomorrow.
Rushmo is actually the true messiah in disguise and his purpose is to finally face off against Obama in a celestial battle that will last 1000 years and require the lives of 9999 angels and demons.
Ben Stein had an interesting show on Showtime about evolution and how very credible scientists find it a flawed theory.
I personally haven’t dwelled on this issue much or spent a lot fo time on it, so I have no personal bent either way. I believe in God, but whatever his plan etc is, I don’t really worry much about it.
Evolution - theory (ok honestly, theories - there are what , several hundred variations by now?) is not fact. It is merely multiple versions of a particular line of theory that seeks to unite the observable data we find on the planet in a plausible explanation. It always has been and always will be a work in progress and will undoutedly change many many more times in the future.
At the end of the day, evolution still cannot explain where everything came from and at that point - the origin of it all, it fails. It cannot give origin, it will only ever be able to offer a theory of process. In that sense it leaves a huge whole in the metaphysical understanding of our existence.
So, no . . . thanks, but I’ll stick with my creation/God-centered understanding of the universe.
To tick off the points:
-
An evolutionary theory that accepts intelligent design as its origin? well of course that fits with good theology, because it includes the creator - now how many evolutionists acknowledge the existence of the intelligent designer? quid pro quo, my friends . . .lol
-
Straw man argument - “calling God a garage-tinkerer” - more like the Guy who created the most awesomest, accurate, feature filled, never needs winding, most perfect watch ever - doesn;t sould like a garage tinkerer to me - fallacious argument.
-
Evolution explains Christian doctrine? this whole paragraph is unconnected and doesn’t even offer a rational explanation of the concept of Original Sin
-
The Black Widow explains family values . . . . . nuf said
-
Moral Precepts? like Worship the One true God, Shall not murder, Shall not Covet . . . hmmm, seems to have forgotten what a moral precept actually is . . .
-
Evolution explains capitalism . . . well maybe in natural trend towards choas - lol
weak, very very weak . .
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Ben Stein had an interesting show on Showtime about evolution and how very credible scientists find it a flawed theory.
I personally haven’t dwelled on this issue much or spent a lot fo time on it, so I have no personal bent either way. I believe in God, but whatever his plan etc is, I don’t really worry much about it. [/quote]
The Ben Stein movie, “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” was a really cool movie.
Conservative is a political leaning, not related to religion. I have run across plenty of agnostic conservatives in my time. I would argue most conservatives do think evolution to be a fine theory. Not all Christians are creationists. That is traditionally a stance of biblical literalists, not “Christians” at large. Now based on your OP, you made several grievous errors in the church of liberalism. You stereotyped and profiled, you know that’s a no-no. For your penance find an effigy of Nancy Pelosi and beg for forgiveness.
Third error, you don’t have the right to tell people what they should and should not believe.
Epistemology is the area where this debate actually takes place even if many on all sides don’t consciously realize it. One’s foundational, preeminent, presupposition concerning HOW we know anything dictates much of the content and all of the interpretation of every other particle (and sub atomic particle) of “knowledge” acquired.
Epistemology is all about faith and everybody has it. It’s only a matter of what in.
[quote]Fallen wrote:
You have to be:
- High
- Retarded
- Retarded and High
- Drunk
- High, drunk, and retarded
To take what the bible says as the truth. I mean, how does church explain the preserved remains of human-like beings that date back thousands-millions of years? It can barely explain why priests have a fondness for little boys. There is a god but he’s either dead or playing an eternal game of bocce because he hasn’t cleaned out our tank and we are playing in our own shit now. Science…not a Christian god will give us hope (not science in the weird homosexual Tom Cruise way) for a better tomorrow.
Rushmo is actually the true messiah in disguise and his purpose is to finally face off against Obama in a celestial battle that will last 1000 years and require the lives of 9999 angels and demons. [/quote]
The problem with your argument is, what do you mean by “human-like”? How close or how far are these human-like beings to humans today? There is plenty of evidence to show that Neanderthals had much smaller brains than we do, limiting their capacity to problem solve and task manage compared with today’s human capacity. Research shows that modern humans probably began around 160k years ago, but how much different are modern humans to pre-modern humans?
How does someone judge this?
The Bible begins with the creation of Adam and Eve, not at a time where “human-like” creatures roamed the Earth.
Your priest analogy is worthless. Religion is flawed because men who practice it are flawed. Atheists are also capable of committing sins and breaking laws, because again they are human too. Did you have a point with this?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The problem with your argument is, what do you mean by “human-like”? How close or how far are these human-like beings to humans today? There is plenty of evidence to show that Neanderthals had much smaller brains than we do, limiting their capacity to problem solve and task manage compared with today’s human capacity. Research shows that modern humans probably began around 160k years ago, but how much different are modern humans to pre-modern humans?
How does someone judge this?
The Bible begins with the creation of Adam and Eve, not at a time where “human-like” creatures roamed the Earth.
Your priest analogy is worthless. Religion is flawed because men who practice it are flawed. Atheists are also capable of committing sins and breaking laws, because again they are human too. Did you have a point with this?[/quote]
I understand we are part of an educated forum so I left my statement at “human-like” because I didn’t feel the need to educate the forum on the various levels of human evolution. Yes they date back 160k or whatever years but the Bible only chronicles not even 5 percent of that span of time. I simply hate the Christian faith and love punching holes in the faithful.
[quote]Fallen wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The problem with your argument is, what do you mean by “human-like”? How close or how far are these human-like beings to humans today? There is plenty of evidence to show that Neanderthals had much smaller brains than we do, limiting their capacity to problem solve and task manage compared with today’s human capacity. Research shows that modern humans probably began around 160k years ago, but how much different are modern humans to pre-modern humans?
How does someone judge this?
The Bible begins with the creation of Adam and Eve, not at a time where “human-like” creatures roamed the Earth.
Your priest analogy is worthless. Religion is flawed because men who practice it are flawed. Atheists are also capable of committing sins and breaking laws, because again they are human too. Did you have a point with this?[/quote]
I understand we are part of an educated forum so I left my statement at “human-like” because I didn’t feel the need to educate the forum on the various levels of human evolution. Yes they date back 160k or whatever years but the Bible only chronicles not even 5 percent of that span of time. I simply hate the Christian faith and love punching holes in the faithful. [/quote]
It’s not a science book. The bible is truth. Truth means more than physical facts. I would say there is truth in many philosophical writings, though many contain to factual events.
The other part that people miss is that the bible is a collection of ancient historical works. All works from ancient history are riddled with factual errors, embellishments, and cultural myths, not to mention bias.
Much of what we know about druids comes from what was essentially a roman propaganda campaign trying to discredit them.
What we know of Egyptians is from what rulers chose to write about themselves. (literally, Egyptians never recorded any of their defeats)
Josephus’s writings are literally riddled with instances where scribes changed things through the years, But he’s one of the most significant ancient historians.
The bible is also one of the best corroborated and most well preserved collections of writings that there is on ancient history. This is a fact.
But you go ahead and dismiss it off hand.
[quote]Fallen wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
The problem with your argument is, what do you mean by “human-like”? How close or how far are these human-like beings to humans today? There is plenty of evidence to show that Neanderthals had much smaller brains than we do, limiting their capacity to problem solve and task manage compared with today’s human capacity. Research shows that modern humans probably began around 160k years ago, but how much different are modern humans to pre-modern humans?
How does someone judge this?
The Bible begins with the creation of Adam and Eve, not at a time where “human-like” creatures roamed the Earth.
Your priest analogy is worthless. Religion is flawed because men who practice it are flawed. Atheists are also capable of committing sins and breaking laws, because again they are human too. Did you have a point with this?[/quote]
I understand we are part of an educated forum so I left my statement at “human-like” because I didn’t feel the need to educate the forum on the various levels of human evolution. Yes they date back 160k or whatever years but the Bible only chronicles not even 5 percent of that span of time. I simply hate the Christian faith and love punching holes in the faithful. [/quote]
So, your hatred has biased your opinion ? Why do you hate the Christian faith? How did it, or should I say, who wrong you?
[quote]Fallen wrote:
I simply hate the Christian faith and love punching holes in the faithful. [/quote]
that says all I need to know about your viewpoints . . . a closed mind is a dying mind
Dragons of Eden By carl Sagan was about this very subject , but back to your article I not only believe that evolution explains the free market , I think evolution would explain regulation of the free market
Much of the article struck me as being a great stretch, particularly his ‘watchmaker’ argument.
That said, while evolution doesn’t explain everything, it explains a whole lot more than ‘oh, God did it. A while back. Here’s a story filled with fanciful and highly unrealistic things happening that explains it’ which is the evangelical Christian perspective.
[quote]Otep wrote:
Much of the article struck me as being a great stretch, particularly his ‘watchmaker’ argument.
That said, while evolution doesn’t explain everything, it explains a whole lot more than ‘oh, God did it. A while back. Here’s a story filled with fanciful and highly unrealistic things happening that explains it’ which is the evangelical Christian perspective.[/quote]
^ hardly the evangelical Christian perspective. Apparently you are another one of those individuals who lacks a basic understanding of scientific history and how Christians have pioneered (and continue to lead in) many of the fields of study relied upon by evolutionists today. Accepting that God created the universe is not an end-all-be-all for Christians and especially for Christians scientists.
We have pioneered in so many scientific fields because we seek a grater understanding of the universe, the process of creation, the awesomeness of the handiwork of God. As I stated above, evolution is merely a theory of process, not of origins. Creation/intelligent design does assign an origin and then opens the mind to all of the potential of process.
It is realy tiresome to hear the same lame old lines about “Christians say God created it and stop thinking” - here’s a few quotes for your edification:
Johannes Kepler [1571-1630]
Astronomy/Laws of Planetary Motion
“I had the intention of becoming a theologian…but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for ‘the heavens declare the glory of God.’”
“I am a Christian…I believe… only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ…In Him is all refuge, all solace.”
“Let my name perish if only the name of God the Father is thereby elevated.”
“[God] is the kind Creator who brought forth nature out of nothing.”
Blaise Pascal [1623-1662]
Scientist noted for work in physics, hydrostatics, vacuums; inventor of mechanical calculator
“Jesus Christ, I have separated myself from Him:
I have fled from Him, denied Him, crucified Him.
Let me never be separated from Him.
We keep hold of Him only by the ways taught in the Gospel.
Renunciation, total and sweet.
Total submission to Jesus Christ…”
{from a manuscript dated Monday November 23, 1654 and found in his own handwriting in his coat at his death}
“Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness engenders pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God engenders despair.” [Pascal - Pensees no 527]
*Also famous for “Pascal’s Wager”–a powerful defense of the Christian faith
Robert Boyle [1627-1691]
Founder of Modern Chemistry/Gas Dynamics
Governor of Missionary organization for propagating the gospel in New England
Personally financed the translation of the Bible into Irish, Turkish, and Arabic
Author of “The Christian Virtuoso” reflecting on the study of nature for Christians
Author of Christian devotional book, “Occasional Reflections”
His will after his death financed the “Boyle Lectures” which were lectures in defense of Christianity
“From a knowledge of His work, we shall know Him”
“Christ’s passion, His death, His resurrection and ascension, and all of those wonderful works which He did during His stay upon earth, in order to confirm mankind in the belief of His being God as well as man.”
Sir Isaac Newton [1642-1727]
Mathematician, Physicist
Inventor of calculus
Law of universal gravitation
Newton’s three laws of motion:
- Law of inertia 2) Force=mass*acceleration 3) Principle of action and reaction
Published “Newton’s Prophecies of Daniel”
after his study and translation of the Book of Daniel [in the Bible]
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”
“There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history.”
" This thing [a scale model of our solar system] is but a puny imitation of a much grander system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a designer and maker; yet you, as an atheist, profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"
Sir William Herschel [1738-1822]
Astronomist. Discovered Uranus, several nebulae, and binary stars.
First to accurately describe the Milky Way Galaxy
â??All human discoveries seem to be made only for the purpose of confirming more and more
the Truths contained in the Sacred Scriptures.â??
“The undevout astronomer must be mad.”
Samuel Morse [1791-1872]
Inventor of the telegraph [Morse’s sketch of the railway telegraph above]
“Education without religion is in danger of substituting wild theories for the simple commonsense rules of Christianity.”
First message sent by the electric telegraph:
“What hath God wrought”
{This is found in the Bible; Numbers 23:23}
{The message was sent from the Supreme Court Room in the Capitol to the railway depot at Baltimore; May 24, 1844}
{In one letter, Samuel Morse wrote “What hath GOD wrought” by capitalizing and underlining “GOD” twice!}
Michael Faraday [1791-1867]
Inventor of the electric generator and the transformer
Discovered Benzene–used to make plastics, nylon and dyes
Produced the first test tubes
Described Field Theory
Hailed by Albert Einstein as the foundation for his own scientific discoveries
Elder in his church for over 20 years
“Speculations? I have none. I am resting on certainties. ‘I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’”
“A Christian finds his guide in the Word of God, and commits the keeping of his soul into the hands of God. He looks for no assurance beyond what the Word can give him, and if his mind is troubled by the cares and fears which assail him, he can go nowhere but in prayer to the throne of
grace and to Scripture.”
“Since peace is alone in the gift of God; and as it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope.” --[1861 letter]
“The Bible, and it alone, with nothing added to it nor taken away from it by man, is the sole and sufficient guide for each individual, at all times and in all circumstancesâ?¦For faith in the divinity and work of Christ is the gift of God, and the evidence of this faith is obedience to the commandment of Christ.”
Matthew Maury [1806-1873]
The “Father” of oceanography
Aided in the laying of the first trans-Atlantic cable
Maury believed Psalm 8:8, which speaks of the “paths of the seas” , and he discovered “oceanic currents”
Maury described atmospheric circulation and showed that it was already described in Ecclesiastes 1:6
Maury showed Job 28:25 to be true with respect to the weight of the winds.
“The Bible is true and science is true, and therefore each, if truly read, but proves the truth of the other.”
James Prescott Joule [1818-1889]
Described the First Law of Thermodynamics: The Law of Conservation of Energy
[American Biochemist Isaac Asimov said that the First Law of Thermodynamics is
“one of the most important generalizations in the history of science”]
Kinetic Theory of Gases
“Joule-Thomson” effect–the basis of refrigeration
A unit of energy [work] in physics is now called a “joule”
“It is evident that an acquaintance with natural laws means no less than
an acquaintance with the mind of God therein expressed.”
“Order is manifestly maintained in the universe…governed by the sovereign will of God”
“After the knowledge of, and obedience to, the will of God, the next aim must be to know something of His attributes of wisdom, power, and goodness as evidenced by His handiwork.”
James Clerk Maxwell [1831-1879]
Statistical Thermodynamics, Field equations of electricity, magnetism, light
" No theory of evolution can be formed to account for the similarity of molecules,
for evolution necessarily implies continuous change."
“Almighty God, Who has created man in Thine own image, and made him a living soul that he might seek after Thee,
and have dominion over Thy creatures, teach us to study the works of Thy hands, that we may subdue the earth to our use, and strengthen the reason for Thy service; so to receive Thy blessed Word, that we may believe on Him Who Thou has sent, to give us the knowledge of salvation and the remission of our sins. All of which we ask in the name of the same Jesus Christ, our Lord.” {prayer written by Maxwell and found amongst his notes}
Maxwell was an elder in the church he helped establish near his home.
Louis Pasteur [1822-1895]
Father of Microbiology, developed “pasteurization”
“The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.”
“Science brings men nearer to God.”
Jean-Henri Fabre [1823-1915]
Entomology, Biology
Author of 8-volume series “Souvenirs Entomologiques”
detailing the behavior and life history of many species
“Without Him, I understand nothing; without Him, all is darknessâ?¦Every period has its manias.
I regard Atheism as a mania. It is the malady of the age.
You could take my skin from me more easily than my faith in God.”
Sir Joseph Lister [1827-1912]
Father of antiseptic surgery, first to wire fractures, developed dissolving sutures
“I am a believer in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity”
Lord Kelvin [William Thomson] [1824-1907]
Physicist, Laws of Thermodynamics, Absolute temperature scale, inventor
“With regard to the origin of life, science…positively affirms creative power.”
“Overwhelmingly strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie around us…
the atheistic idea is so non-sensical that I cannot put it into words.”
George Washington Carver [c. 1864-1943]
agricultural chemist, inventor of over 300 products
“Without my Savior, I am nothing.”
“I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station,
through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in.”
“God is going to reveal to us things he never revealed before if we put our hands in his. No books ever go into my laboratory, a thing I am to do and the way of doing it are revealed me.”
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
nice try Mike - believing in evolution does not mean we came from apes. In fact evolution doesn’t even suggest exactly that (some of Darwin’s papers might suggest that, yet read the papers yourself and draw your own conclusions instead of hoping on the short bus because others are doing it). There are parts that have huge holes. Learning for example has no logical path. The knee comes from where? On the simplest biology, where does the complex eye come from? The lamprey into what? When you learn and understand science, then you might have a discussion with substance.[/quote]
No we didn’t come from apes. Rather, apes and humans had a common ancestor. I’ve read a lot on this topic. The “irreducible complexity” idea has been debunked because it’s been shown that complex systems can function if you remove a part of it. Many of the so-called holes in evolution have either been filled or exposed as not really being holes at all.
Yes, I am well aware that this topic has been discussed to death. Most of those threads take an either/or position - you either believe the creation story which makes you a good Christian or you don’t, which makes you an atheist or not a “true” Christian. The point of this thread was to explore the possibility that it is possible to reconcile both evolution and Christianity. I guess you missed the point.
[quote]
George Washington Carver [c. 1864-1943] said:
<<< “I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station,
through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in.” >>>[/quote]
This is a towering profundity of the first order and is in fact a vernacular statement of wholly Biblical epistemology.
Nothing makes ultimate sense until one assumes by faith the triune Deity of the Bible and once this assumption is made, everything does. Everything, including philosophical questions going back thousands of years such as the problem of the one and the many for instance. This will never mean that created beings will ever share the omniscience of the infinite Creator as this cannot be accomplished, even by God who is subject only to his own nature and as such cannot be replicated. We will never know everything as he does.
However, the pursuit of knowledge is good and right as it continually reveals more and more of the unfathomable depths of his majesty and power even by, in and to those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that’s what’s happening. In some cases ESPECIALLY by, in and to those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that’s what’s happening. Where some claim to find irrefutable proof of his non existence, I find an ever expanding empirical catalog of his mind numbing “eternal power and Godhead” Romans 1.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]Fallen wrote:
I simply hate the Christian faith and love punching holes in the faithful. [/quote]
that says all I need to know about your viewpoints . . . a closed mind is a dying mind[/quote]
Father Patterson takes a deep breath lol
Nay villain, I’m as opened minded as they come. I was actually raised a JW and was profoundly faithful. I simply think that history itself proves that Christianity is one hypocritical and destructive institution. The Bible is nothing more than a biased history book with a pinch of fantasy in the new testament. I wont openly prosecute the faithful but if they try to force their beliefs upon my person I will lash out without reserve.