[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
respect should be a standard starting point[/quote]
I don’t really feel that way about anyone, male or female 
I’m not saying I expect people to work hard for my respect lol. All I mean is that I’ve never thought of respect as something you just handed out to everyone by default until they lost it. It’s something you assign to a person after you’ve gotten to know them a little bit and have some sort of picture of their character.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
See, the funny thing is I feel like I mostly meet nice guys, rarely an asshole, and don’t generally have to worry that they respect me. Why wouldn’t they? I’m smart and nice and healthy and secure. I’m more concerned about meeting someone equally as smart and nice and healthy and secure, so I can respect him!
As for working HARD for his respect, no. I’m not looking for a guy so fucked up and issued that I have to work HARD to get to what should be a standard starting point. If he’s working too hard for my respect I’ll imagine he’s overcompensating for something.
[/quote]
As for working HARD for his respect, yes.
The automatic assumption is gone and for good reason.
[quote]
I answer the call. I relish the experience just as I do the big, greasy burgers and fries I have when I want them. I just maintain these pleasures within my preferred context.
Women like yourself usually are in long term committed relationships and they stay there. [/quote]
You answer the call but you are not ruled by it.
You also were not raised on a steady diet of you-go-girl-ism, encouraged to slut it up because it is empowering or to see men as disposable.
If you had been you would be ruled almost solely by your sexual instincts without being even aware of them.
Men have it easier in that regard, our instincts are more… direct.
Hard to bullshit yourself really, though some men seem to manage that effortlessly. [/quote]
Well, I was, actually. I was raised in a secular household. My mother left when I was 12, and was both a cheater and a feminist. She did what pleased her and I do what pleases me. Simple.
Also, the brave new world holds all sorts of happy young men and women who believe as I do. You just choose not to accept it. The difference is that I see your world, accept it as real, and reject it as not good enough for me. You see my world, and others of various ages who report the same, and reject it as false.
I can’t believe I forgot to mention this morning, but I spoke to my cousin last night, the one who shares your views (except she hates men whereas you hate women). She wants me to dump my boyfriend because he lost his job. He’s “not a man” now, apparently.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
respect should be a standard starting point[/quote]
I don’t really feel that way about anyone, male or female
I’m not saying I expect people to work hard for my respect lol. All I mean is that I’ve never thought of respect as something you just handed out to everyone by default until they lost it. It’s something you assign to a person after you’ve gotten to know them a little bit and have some sort of picture of their character.[/quote]
Really?
So to strangers you do not say Yes sir or No sir or be polite in any way?
I believe respect in the terms of manners.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
respect should be a standard starting point[/quote]
I don’t really feel that way about anyone, male or female
I’m not saying I expect people to work hard for my respect lol. All I mean is that I’ve never thought of respect as something you just handed out to everyone by default until they lost it. It’s something you assign to a person after you’ve gotten to know them a little bit and have some sort of picture of their character.[/quote]
Probably you’re right, I guess I’m just thinking of a friendly, open attitude. And some selectivity in accepting or seeking dates or hookups in the first place.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
respect should be a standard starting point[/quote]
I don’t really feel that way about anyone, male or female
I’m not saying I expect people to work hard for my respect lol. All I mean is that I’ve never thought of respect as something you just handed out to everyone by default until they lost it. It’s something you assign to a person after you’ve gotten to know them a little bit and have some sort of picture of their character.[/quote]
Really?
So to strangers you do not say Yes sir or No sir or be polite in any way?
I believe respect in the terms of manners. [/quote]
Semantics. I always default to polite with strangers. Everyone is deserving of cordial treatment until they prove themselves unworthy of it. I just don’t call that respect.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
respect should be a standard starting point[/quote]
I don’t really feel that way about anyone, male or female
I’m not saying I expect people to work hard for my respect lol. All I mean is that I’ve never thought of respect as something you just handed out to everyone by default until they lost it. It’s something you assign to a person after you’ve gotten to know them a little bit and have some sort of picture of their character.[/quote]
Really?
So to strangers you do not say Yes sir or No sir or be polite in any way?
I believe respect in the terms of manners. [/quote]
Semantics. I always default to polite with strangers. Everyone is deserving of cordial treatment until they prove themselves unworthy of it. I just don’t call that respect.[/quote]
I dont think so, I think its fundamental that you DO respect people until they prove otherwise.
And in regards to what is being discussed, when in social situations where you are trying to meet the opposite sex (or same sex if you are into that) you also have that same cordial treatment I would assume?
I mean you dont go up slap them on the ass and say hey bitch love those DSL’s your supporting can you suck a brother real quick I have build up sperm ready to go?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
See, the funny thing is I feel like I mostly meet nice guys, rarely an asshole, and don’t generally have to worry that they respect me. Why wouldn’t they? I’m smart and nice and healthy and secure. I’m more concerned about meeting someone equally as smart and nice and healthy and secure, so I can respect him!
As for working HARD for his respect, no. I’m not looking for a guy so fucked up and issued that I have to work HARD to get to what should be a standard starting point. If he’s working too hard for my respect I’ll imagine he’s overcompensating for something.
[/quote]
As for working HARD for his respect, yes.
The automatic assumption is gone and for good reason.
[quote]
I answer the call. I relish the experience just as I do the big, greasy burgers and fries I have when I want them. I just maintain these pleasures within my preferred context.
Women like yourself usually are in long term committed relationships and they stay there. [/quote]
You answer the call but you are not ruled by it.
You also were not raised on a steady diet of you-go-girl-ism, encouraged to slut it up because it is empowering or to see men as disposable.
If you had been you would be ruled almost solely by your sexual instincts without being even aware of them.
Men have it easier in that regard, our instincts are more… direct.
Hard to bullshit yourself really, though some men seem to manage that effortlessly. [/quote]
Well, I was, actually. I was raised in a secular household. My mother left when I was 12, and was both a cheater and a feminist. She did what pleased her and I do what pleases me. Simple.
Also, the brave new world holds all sorts of happy young men and women who believe as I do. You just choose not to accept it. The difference is that I see your world, accept it as real, and reject it as not good enough for me. You see my world, and others of various ages who report the same, and reject it as false.
I can’t believe I forgot to mention this morning, but I spoke to my cousin last night, the one who shares your views (except she hates men whereas you hate women). She wants me to dump my boyfriend because he lost his job. He’s “not a man” now, apparently.[/quote]
Sorry to hear that, Em.
According to Orion, you should be out the door likety-split! ;-)[/quote]
Thanks! We have a rough row to hoe, because its stressful. He’s dancing with depression, which is reasonable. I don’t promise we’ll make it through, but it won’t be because he’s not a man. It would be that the stress creates tensions that bring our insecurities to the forefront. He feels like a loser, so retreats. Then I feel unwanted so I retreat, etc.
But we’re both hopeful that this will lead to good things. I’m an optimist by nature, so I’m assuming this is a lucky break of some sort. Except on that one day a month when optimism is less easy, then I assume his shitty karma is bringing me down, too. lol
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
respect should be a standard starting point[/quote]
I don’t really feel that way about anyone, male or female
I’m not saying I expect people to work hard for my respect lol. All I mean is that I’ve never thought of respect as something you just handed out to everyone by default until they lost it. It’s something you assign to a person after you’ve gotten to know them a little bit and have some sort of picture of their character.[/quote]
Really?
So to strangers you do not say Yes sir or No sir or be polite in any way?
I believe respect in the terms of manners. [/quote]
Semantics. I always default to polite with strangers. Everyone is deserving of cordial treatment until they prove themselves unworthy of it. I just don’t call that respect.[/quote]
I dont think so, I think its fundamental that you DO respect people until they prove otherwise.
And in regards to what is being discussed, when in social situations where you are trying to meet the opposite sex (or same sex if you are into that) you also have that same cordial treatment I would assume?
I mean you dont go up slap them on the ass and say hey bitch love those DSL’s your supporting can you suck a brother real quick I have build up sperm ready to go? [/quote]
I laughed!
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
Semantics. I always default to polite with strangers. Everyone is deserving of cordial treatment until they prove themselves unworthy of it. I just don’t call that respect.[/quote]
I dont think so, I think its fundamental that you DO respect people until they prove otherwise.
And in regards to what is being discussed, when in social situations where you are trying to meet the opposite sex (or same sex if you are into that) you also have that same cordial treatment I would assume?
I mean you dont go up slap them on the ass and say hey bitch love those DSL’s your supporting can you suck a brother real quick I have build up sperm ready to go? [/quote]
I guess so. There are different levels of respect, and since I am also of the opinion that everyone fundamentally deserves a certain level of decency I never even bothered calling that respect or anything at all. I define respect as the next level after they prove themselves worthy of something more than that fundamental level of courtesy. Disdain would be if they went in the opposite direction.
[quote]csulli wrote:
Since Walkway asked here’s my experience with what you’ve been talking about, although I have shared this before somewhere. Thank God it’s not as bad as Derek’s.
I dated a girl for two years in college, and when I graduated we got married. I gave her everything she asked for. Her every wish was my command. I naively thought this would make her happy and make me a great husband. What actually happened is she lost all respect for her pushover provider. A week before our 2 year anniversary I found out definitively that she had been cheating on me (a lot). That’s the day I decided to take the pussy off of its pedestal. Luckily I got out pretty inexpensively in the divorce at least.
Despite what she said she wanted, what she really wanted was someone with the balls to tell her no and not let her get away with her bullshit. Especially given her daddy issues. Girls like that need someone who sticks to their own opinion that they can hold on to to ride out her own emotional torrent.[/quote]
Sorry to hear that.
My story is similar, but reversed.
I dated this girl in high school for a year before my family moved. We tried to keep up a long-distance relationship in the pre-internet days, but the distance and minimal communication killed it. Plus, you had to pay for long distance phone calls back then.
She and I kept in touch with a yearly phone call, and met up on the rare times I was back in town. She’d met a guy in high school, went to college with him. I went to college elsewhere, dated a few girls, but nothing serious.
A few years later, I ended up moving her way for a job. The first time I saw her again was at her wedding. She wanted to meet up for coffee a few weeks later, and then dinner, and then, etc.
Long story short, they divorced several months later. She moved to another city for her [medical] residency, I followed. We moved into the same apartment complex, different apartments.
For the first year or so, I was giving her everything I could, being a nice guy, trying to make her happy. She was in rough shape from the divorce – “I had everything I wanted, he was perfect for me, so why wasn’t it enough?” – and I was trying to “make things easy for her”. I pretty much ran myself into the ground to please her, and the more I gave, the more she wanted.
She was full of complaints, and at times, was actively comparing how much better her life with him was than with me.
Eventually – and this took a lot longer than it ever should have – I gave up, realized the impossibility of it, and just stopped. I told her if things were so great with him, she can leave and try to get back with him. I changed my focus from her to focusing on me. It was a reactionary response. It was also too much for her to handle.
We broke up for awhile, got back together for awhile, broke up for awhile, got back together for awhile. It took a long time before things stabilized.
But over time, things became a lot more balanced, and to my surprise… the more limits I set, the smoother things got. The less I put up with her bullshit, the better girlfriend she became.
And there were lots of things, like learning how to deal with her constant complaints. To me, my default reaction is that if she’s complaining about something, I need to do something about it to make it go away for her. But eventually I had to tell her “if it bothers you that much, do something about it, otherwise just stop talking about it”. Knowing what I know now, it’s not too surprising that it worked. Back then, that was a big deal.
Things have been pretty good in the last while, but it took a lot of work to get here.
Of course, she’s moving halfway across the country next week and “doesn’t see a future with me”, so meh. She’s been saying that for the last 4 years.
At least things, today, right now, are good. She’ll be cooking dinner when I get home tonight, she’ll be sleeping in my bed tonight, and she’s missing me throughout the day.
Perfect, no, but good for now.
Here I am, a hard science guy, wondering why interpersonal relationships must be so complicated.
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
Here I am, a hard science guy, wondering why interpersonal relationships must be so complicated. [/quote]
Because you expect things to be logical?
Which they are, just not on the surface?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
Here I am, a hard science guy, wondering why interpersonal relationships must be so complicated. [/quote]
Because you expect things to be logical?
Which they are, just not on the surface?[/quote]
I’m 21, a product of the blue pill. Yes, it is logical but only upon a second glance.
Coughing up the blue pill I was spoon fed is I don’t want to say unpleasant, but it is an unfavorable feeling.
When I look beneath the surface of the relationships around me that fail and the few that succeed, there are definitely parallels with a lot of what you’ve been preaching.
FInding the medium, that I hope exists, seems complicated.
If you’re too attracted to a woman, you’ll need to force yourself to act a certain way to keep her attracted but you’ll eventually resent yourself and the relationship will fail.
If you’re not attracted enough, you’ll keep the woman’s attention but feel unsatisfied and eventually the relationship will fail.
Obviously, I’m speaking in a uniform manner about things that aren’t uniform, but I see no medium. Finding a fully compatible partner just seems too fairytaleish to even consider.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Nman wrote:
This is a really sad discussion. I don’t usually respond because I don’t spend a lot of times on forums, i usually read the articles and get back to work but this thread name caught my attention and I wanted to see what it was about. I didn’t read it all but I feel like I read enough and I feel like I should give my two cents. A few things, I was a virgin until I got married and was glad. I’m a religious person and was taught about sexual purity and know that it’s a true doctrine. I have two little girls and I’m scared to death of them finding guys like you. Guys that don’t care about who my daughters are, guys that think my daughters are just a good time and have no respect for them. It’s sad! It’s no wonder that the Family in the US is breaking down and the consequences of that are the real problems behind the issues in our country. Men aren’t men anymore. Sure everyone on this site lifts and talks big but how many would give up everything for their wife? How many men selflessly put their wives needs/wants in front of their own? How many men are fully committed to their wives/marriages? Look at the divorce stats and you’ll see not many. Being a man to me means being fully committed to your wife, to your kids and to marriage. There are reasons for a divorce (not saying there isn’t) but the current trend is disturbing and shows that men and women aren’t as dedicated to each other as they could/should be. Whenever I have issues in my marriage the best solution is to turn away from my wants and my needs and to put my wife’s wants/needs above my own. Women are unique and special and need to be treated as such! [/quote]
Post more or read more, you may find you are not alone on these boards.[/quote]
Yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah.
“Women are unique and special”- All of them, nice trick if you can pull it off, he is snowflaking for them, mwua…
“Men are not comitted”- Unfortunately we will never know, because they file the overwhelming majority of divorces.
“How many men selflessly put their wives needs/wants in front of their own? …Whenever I have issues in my marriage the best solution is to turn away from my wants and my needs and to put my wife’s wants/needs above my own”
Whats in it for me?
Or has the definition of “real man” been changed to freaking idiot?
[/quote]
Lol, you still cant get it can you?
If you never sacrifice yourself for someone no one is going to reciprocate, period, end of story, yes that takes risk. Some of us choose well and keep it going.
[/quote]
Lol, you did not read what he wrote did you?
If he always gives in, there is no reciprocating.
There cannot be.
It is logically impossible.[/quote]
No sure where I mentioned I give in. Marriage is a team sport and takes both sides working for a common goal. If an issue arises in our marriage then we talk about it and work it out. I was merely pointing out that from my point of view after something comes up in a marriage that we work through to keep it going the way we want it (as happy as possible) it’s best to turn outward rather than inward. And it does bug me when guys refer to women in a demeaning way. And from a lot of the posts I read about hooking up with this girl and that girls just to appease appetites or just for the heck of it or just to say this or that. That to me isn’t cool. Women mean a lot more to me than that. If they don’t to others than that’s fine, I can’t force what I feel or believe on anyone but I can state my opinion just like you can.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
Here I am, a hard science guy, wondering why interpersonal relationships must be so complicated. [/quote]
Because you expect things to be logical?
Which they are, just not on the surface?[/quote]
All I’ve really been able to do is piece things together, with some nudges in the right direction.
However, I’d appreciate a good explanation of the “logic”.
[quote]Nman wrote:
Women mean a lot more to me than that. If they don’t to others than that’s fine, I can’t force what I feel or believe on anyone but I can state my opinion just like you can.
[/quote]
There’s a number of people on this forum where women mean a lot to them too. Part of the problem is finding women to whom men mean anything.
A girl I knew once told me “First, I’m going to marry for money, and then I’m going to marry for love.”
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I dated this girl in high school for a year before my family moved…
She and I kept in touch …I went to college elsewhere, dated a few girls, but nothing serious.
A few years later, I ended up moving her way for a job. The first time I saw her again was at her wedding. She wanted to meet up for coffee a few weeks later, and then dinner, and then, etc.
Long story short, they divorced several months later. She moved to another city for her [medical] residency, I followed. We moved into the same apartment complex, different apartments.
…Of course, she’s moving halfway across the country next week and “doesn’t see a future with me”, so meh. She’s been saying that for the last 4 years.
At least things, today, right now, are good. She’ll be cooking dinner when I get home tonight, she’ll be sleeping in my bed tonight, and she’s missing me throughout the day.
Perfect, no, but good for now.[/quote]
This sounds like she’s been the love of your life for a lot of years. And when she relocates to start her practice, you aren’t going? I cannot imagine telling my man, “I don’t see a future with you.” If he said that to me, I’d take him at his word and start preparing to split. You aren’t married, but it sure sounds like it’s been serious for a long time. And why would I stay with someone who was telling me that sometime in the future, they are going to dump me?
Maybe I’m just from another generation. I love my home, but if we had to relocate for my husband’s work, I’d be packing. Home is where the people I love are, even if that is Nowhere, North Dakota. I’ve often told him that if he ever felt like he needed to make a change, I’d consider it an adventure and we’d go. I’m not that attached to my possessions. There would be no living apart.