Man some books are getting written here
AC -
You mentioned that you are not a religious person, and you’ve often talked about your wild and sometimes misspent youth.
But at this point in life, you often seem to come down on the same side of political or moral issues as Christian conservatives like myself.
I’d agree with most of your post, in terms of the breakdown of fidelity and loyalty in marriage, as well as what Nman said about the breakdown of moral values in the family being central to most of societal problems. Divorce is a loosing situation for men, women and kids. And IMO, the women’s movement has brought some unintended consequences that don’t lead anywhere good.
Maybe you need to rethink this “I’m not a religious person” stance. Granted, it’s possible to raise some ethical and moral kids, but to do it without any structure as to WHY?, and without any faith community or “oasis” as you put it, would be pretty tough in today’s world.
FWIW, I was raised by an LDS (Mormon) mom, and a Non-denominational Christian dad who is a great man, but not a church attender. I’m in some ways not a typical Mormon girl, but that’s my background and the source of most of my ideas about family and faith.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
AC -
You mentioned that you are not a religious person, and you’ve often talked about your wild and sometimes misspent youth.
But at this point in life, you often seem to come down on the same side of political or moral issues as Christian conservatives like myself.
I’d agree with most of your post, in terms of the breakdown of fidelity and loyalty in marriage, as well as what Nman said about the breakdown of moral values in the family being central to most of societal problems. Divorce is a loosing situation for men, women and kids. And IMO, the women’s movement has brought some unintended consequences that don’t lead anywhere good.
Maybe you need to rethink this “I’m not a religious person” stance. Granted, it’s possible to raise some ethical and moral kids, but to do it without any structure as to WHY?, and without any faith community or “oasis” as you put it, would be pretty tough in today’s world.
FWIW, I was raised by an LDS (Mormon) mom, and a Non-denominational Christian dad who is a great man, but not a church attender. I’m in some ways not a typical Mormon girl, but that’s my background and the source of most of my ideas about family and faith.
[/quote]
Its possible to be raised without religion and do ok. I was raised without it and I believe I am doing ok.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Its possible to be raised without religion and do ok. I was raised without it and I believe I am doing ok. [/quote]
Let us please not go down this road, at least not on this thread. You would simply not believe the amount of bandwidth that has been consumed on this site arguing whether one can live a moral life without religion, or indeed whether one without religion may even speak authoritatively about morality at all. This clattering old train of a thread very nearly got derailed back at Creation vs Evolution Canyon (I will be the first to offer a mea culpa for that), so let us not not now allow it to plunge into Can’t Spell GOOD Without GOD Gulch.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Its possible to be raised without religion and do ok. I was raised without it and I believe I am doing ok. [/quote]
Let us please not go down this road, at least not on this thread. You would simply not believe the amount of bandwidth that has been consumed on this site arguing whether one can live a moral life without religion, or indeed whether one without religion may even speak authoritatively about morality at all. This clattering old train of a thread very nearly got derailed back at Creation vs Evolution Canyon (I will be the first to offer a mea culpa for that), so let us not not now allow it to plunge into Can’t Spell GOOD Without GOD Gulch. [/quote]
No worries it was a one time statment. I don’t argue about things like that mainly Becuase I don’t care enough and even if I did people’s opinions are set in stone so its a waste of time.
AC - I couldnt agrre more.
Since Walkway asked here’s my experience with what you’ve been talking about, although I have shared this before somewhere. Thank God it’s not as bad as Derek’s.
I dated a girl for two years in college, and when I graduated we got married. I gave her everything she asked for. Her every wish was my command. I naively thought this would make her happy and make me a great husband. What actually happened is she lost all respect for her pushover provider. A week before our 2 year anniversary I found out definitively that she had been cheating on me (a lot). That’s the day I decided to take the pussy off of its pedestal. Luckily I got out pretty inexpensively in the divorce at least.
Despite what she said she wanted, what she really wanted was someone with the balls to tell her no and not let her get away with her bullshit. Especially given her daddy issues. Girls like that need someone who sticks to their own opinion that they can hold on to to ride out her own emotional torrent.
You know the worst part? I really love to spoil the girls I date. I genuinely derive a lot of pleasure from giving my partner whatever she wants. But it seems like you can’t trust anyone not to just take advantage of that. Seems to me like the girls are ruining it for themselves.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
AC -
You mentioned that you are not a religious person, and you’ve often talked about your wild and sometimes misspent youth.
[/quote]Good times! ;)[quote]
But at this point in life, you often seem to come down on the same side of political or moral issues as Christian conservatives like myself.
[/quote]I am a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian - I think most of my “moral” opinions on social issues would not be in line with popular Christian opinion. [quote]
I’d agree with most of your post, in terms of the breakdown of fidelity and loyalty in marriage, as well as what Nman said about the breakdown of moral values in the family being central to most of societal problems. Divorce is a loosing situation for men, women and kids. And IMO, the women’s movement has brought some unintended consequences that don’t lead anywhere good.
[/quote]Amen, sister[quote]
Maybe you need to rethink this “I’m not a religious person” stance. Granted, it’s possible to raise some ethical and moral kids, but to do it without any structure as to WHY?, and without any faith community or “oasis” as you put it, would be pretty tough in today’s world.
[/quote]My eldest son is 16. He has been an honor role student his whole life. He is a state champion athlete. He plays several musical instruments proficiently. He won the chess tournament at his school in 8th grade. He will get his Eagle scout rank this summer. He volunteers over 300 hours per year in various community service activities (non-religious). He turned in his V card last year and has ten girls on his jock at any given time. He doesn’t lie to women and has a very mature boundary function with his relationships - especially for his age. He takes conscious action to evolve physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. He is agnostic at this point and I’m actively educating him about religion and history. He’s never been in a fight, but he’s peacefully resolved several conflicts that could have escalated (but I’ve shown him a thing or two in case he has to take care of business). He is tall, strong, smart and generally awesome. He doesn’t have a malicious bone in his body. My five year old is little ball of fire who is on a similar track.
I think I’m doing just fine creating my own “oasis” based on science, discipline, history, logic and trust. I don’t need to lie to my kids about a man in the sky or make them feel guilty for things that are perfectly natural. In the absence of religion, I’ve simply taught my son to see the matrix. He’s doing just fine. [quote]
FWIW, I was raised by an LDS (Mormon) mom, and a Non-denominational Christian dad who is a great man, but not a church attender. I’m in some ways not a typical Mormon girl, but that’s my background and the source of most of my ideas about family and faith.
[/quote]
I’m sure your husband is lucky to have you. You are obviously very intelligent and attractive. But again, I would humbly submit for your consideration that you are the exception and not the rule.
Ryan and Varq - Got it. Ryan, I know many people who aren’t religious and have morals, but I think it’s harder to raise kids from a purely secular position. And I generally don’t engage in political or religious discussions here.
csulll - That’s harsh. I’m not sure you can take credit for what happened there. Some people are just going to do what they are going to do.
AC - Thank you for your kind words. I’ve been blessed in the kids department myself. And as for my marriage, I’m the lucky one there. I’d also describe myself as a fiscal conservative, but often come down as a libertarian on social issues, for example I support decriminalizing marijuana, and have no issue with same-sex marriage or civil unions.
End of politics and religion hijack.
Back to important topics like kissing girls and lip gifs.
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
csulll - That’s harsh. I’m not sure you can take credit for what happened there. Some people are just going to do what they are going to do.
[/quote]
Oh yes, he can.
Its the same over and over and over again, all over North America and Europe.
Feral females gonna feral.
I have nothing really to add except to say that I’m enjoying reading what has mostly been an intelligent and respectful discourse. Mostly.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
In the absence of religion, I’ve simply taught my son to see the matrix.[/quote]
He took the red pill, I assume?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let me clarify some things about Mormon families (not speaking about anyone in particular on this site): they are some of THE most fucked up families in all the land.
I know.
Trust me, I know.[/quote]
You are usually pretty close to the mark on issues but you are so far off in this case it’s a good belly laugh.
I’m not the slightest bit religious so I don’t have a horse in the race and what I see as an unbiassed observer is the Mormon religion is by far the best religion. It’s not even close. Catholics are completely fucked up, Christians are a bunch of hypocrites, Islam breeds hate.
Mormons have the lowest divorce rate, the lowest crime rate, the lowest poverty rate. Their state actually balances its budget. Any Mormon you meet is polite and respectful. They have the best looking women too. Now I know you’re all thinking I’m kissing Puff’s ass with that statement, I’m not. The Mormon culture isn’t one of excess and indulgence and they take care of themselves. If you see a 30 year old mother of four and she looks good, she is most likely a Mormon. Any other 30 year old mother of four is most likely trailer trash.
Now I will kiss Power Puff’s ass by presenting her as exhibit A as an outstanding product of the Mormon religion. I rest my case.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let me clarify some things about Mormon families (not speaking about anyone in particular on this site): they are some of THE most fucked up families in all the land.
I know.
Trust me, I know.[/quote]
You are usually pretty close to the mark on issues but you are so far off in this case it’s a good belly laugh.
I’m not the slightest bit religious so I don’t have a horse in the race and what I see as an unbiassed observer is the Mormon religion is by far the best religion. It’s not even close. Catholics are completely fucked up, Christians are a bunch of hypocrites, Islam breeds hate.
Mormons have the lowest divorce rate, the lowest crime rate, the lowest poverty rate. Their state actually balances its budget. Any Mormon you meet is polite and respectful. They have the best looking women too. Now I know you’re all thinking I’m kissing Puff’s ass with that statement, I’m not. The Mormon culture isn’t one of excess and indulgence and they take care of themselves. If you see a 30 year old mother of four and she looks good, she is most likely a Mormon. Any other 30 year old mother of four is most likely trailer trash.
Now I will kiss Power Puff’s ass by presenting her as exhibit A as an outstanding product of the Mormon religion. I rest my case.[/quote]
Push and OnEdge -
You can certainly find some dysfunctional Mormons. I don’t know if we’re more likely to have some crazy going on than the general public. Some of the stats on LDS marriages and life spans are better than Americans at large, as OnEdge mentioned.
There’s a pretty broad range of religious observance and hypocrisy in any group, and plenty of really generous and goodhearted people too. I think seeing the flaws in religious people often turn people off from religion altogether, which is too bad. Even if a church is perfect, the members certainly aren’t. That said, one of the things that keeps me tied to the LDS church is the people. There are a lot of quality people who try to do the right thing. I think spending a little time around them has a positive influence on my life.
That’s one reason I’ve hesitated to talk religion here. As I mentioned, I’m a bit unconventional in some of my views and religious practices, and I have many friends and family members who are not LDS. I’m really grateful to have grown up with a non-LDS dad, even though he’s internalized a lot of values over the years from my mom. 
It’s given me some open-mindedness about religion. In many ways I relate to him. I often feel closer to God when I’m outside in a beautiful place, than I do when I’m at church. And he’s way more about unconditional love and grace, and not so much for guilt. What’s not to love about that? Honestly, I think that’s the way God looks at all of us. I suspect he has a great sense of humor, and He loves us all so much.
Thank you for the compliments, OnEdge. Truly. I’m really flattered.
That’s three times in a row, Push, that you’ve closed a post with “I know. Trust me, I know.”
Is the message you would like us to take home essentially that we should trust you, and that you know? 
Incidentally, I answered your “good natured ribbing” post a couple pages back, but it looks like it got subsumed by an avalanche of other posts since then.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let me clarify some things about Mormon families (not speaking about anyone in particular on this site): they are some of THE most fucked up families in all the land.
I know.
Trust me, I know.[/quote]
You are usually pretty close to the mark on issues but you are so far off in this case it’s a good belly laugh.
I’m not the slightest bit religious so I don’t have a horse in the race and what I see as an unbiassed observer is the Mormon religion is by far the best religion. It’s not even close. Catholics are completely fucked up, Christians are a bunch of hypocrites, Islam breeds hate.
Mormons have the lowest divorce rate, the lowest crime rate, the lowest poverty rate. Their state actually balances its budget. Any Mormon you meet is polite and respectful. They have the best looking women too. Now I know you’re all thinking I’m kissing Puff’s ass with that statement, I’m not. The Mormon culture isn’t one of excess and indulgence and they take care of themselves. If you see a 30 year old mother of four and she looks good, she is most likely a Mormon. Any other 30 year old mother of four is most likely trailer trash.
Now I will kiss Power Puff’s ass by presenting her as exhibit A as an outstanding product of the Mormon religion. I rest my case.[/quote]
When you’ve lived in the densest Mormon population in the country, southern Idaho (not Utah), and you have married into a Mormon family, THEN you will be qualified to refute my statement.
Any Mormon you meet is NOT polite and respectful. They do not necessarily have the best looking women. The Mormon culture in many cases very well is one of excess and indulgence. Heavily Mormon populated areas are some of the most unfriendly places in the United States – and that doesn’t just come from me, a non-Mormon, that comes from Mormons themselves.
And Puff has nothing to do with it. I like her a lot too. But that’s beside the point. And if you got to be her close friend and gain her confidence I have little doubt she could relay some Mormon culture horror stories that she most likely would never reveal here.
You’ve bought into their marketing campaign. You’ve been suckered.
I know.
Trust me, I know.
*BTW, Mormons, not Christians, are the biggest hypocrites I know when speaking in religious terms.
**They are blatantly dishonest in business practices with non-Mormons.
***Please don’t make me reiterate the good ol’ “generally speaking” qualifier. It should be obvious to anyone that I don’t intend to include every last Mormon on the face of the earth. Many of them are indeed the opposite of what I’ve stated.[/quote]
I haven’t been suckered by any marketing campaign. I really don’t know anything about the religion. I just go by the individual people I meet, talk to and interact with and we are never meeting, interacting or talking about religion. It’s always day to day regular stuff. Most people wouldn’t even know they are talking to a Mormon but I’ve gotten good at spotting them because I’m around them so much. I’m in Southern Utah (St. George) a lot and there’s a healthy Mormon population here in Spokane. My company has it’s manufacturing plant in Southern Idaho (Twin Falls) and that is Hicksville, big time. It would be hard for anyone to turn out normal being raised there and living there.
Push, my friend, I’m afraid your biased by your very specific life experience. How do you reconcile my points about the crime rate and balanced budget of Utah? Those aren’t specific to my experience or yours.
If men do not like us North American Women … you gotta let them go.
we are attracted to who we are attracted to, nothing can change that.