I know the topic of Gitmo has been touched on in other threads but what is the general opinion of the Gitmo operation.
Useful? Not Necessary? Vital to the War on Terrorism?
Pat Leahy and Dick Durbin have been outspoken against Gitmo. Is Durbin justified comparing Gitmo to the Soviet Gulag system? Is the Qur’an flushing issue an example of info-war or something to be concerned about?
Thoughts anyone?
Durbin’s nazi comparison and Amnesty’s gulag comparison were both ridiculous overstatements, to the point they damage the credibility of the speakers.
What’s even more laughable, or sad, depending on your outlook, is that on the same island there are actual political prisoners who are treated much worse in Castro’s prisons.
Anyway, Gitmo isn’t the real issue, the issue is that the people who are most against Gitmo are also most against U.S. foreign policy and the War on Terror. Do you think they would shut up and go away if Gitmo were closed?
Also, I’d love to hear what those who are for closing Gitmo are for doing with the people currently imprisoned there – should we just put them in regular federal or military prisons? Put them in the general prison population and see how long they last? See how the inmates treat their Qu’rans?
Ditto to what BB said.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Ditto to what BB said.[/quote]
Hilarious, Durbin says something true and dittoheads explode everywhere. The fake outrage over a statement like this:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings.”
It’s amazing first how predictable the right is—instantly attacking a person who dared to say something true! Did he compare Gitmo to gulags? Nope. Did he say that you’d think the previous passage might of happened in a gulag! Did it seem like we had concern for human beings in this passage?
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and
foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated
or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one
occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so
cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold…On another
occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the
unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the
floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out
throughout the night.”
Most americans would be shocked by such treatment, and any american not drinking KoolAid would have to totally agree with Durbin!
Yep he dared to say it! Durbin thinks america is better than treating prisoners like this. The right’s propoganda? Durbin hates america! B.B. even takes it as far as Durbin’s credibility is at stake because he quoted an FBI testimonial that said we’re torturing people. Torturing prisoners and publicly condemning those who speak out against it does not win a war on terror. (Probably the opposite). I don’t think the place needs to be shut down, but I think our president and everybody around him should publicly strongly condemn any allegation of torture at all times.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Ditto to what BB said.
Hilarious, Durbin says something true and dittoheads explode everywhere. The fake outrage over a statement like this:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings.”
It’s amazing first how predictable the right is—instantly attacking a person who dared to say something true! Did he compare Gitmo to gulags? Nope. Did he say that you’d think the previous passage might of happened in a gulag! Did it seem like we had concern for human beings in this passage?
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and
foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated
or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one
occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so
cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold…On another
occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the
unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the
floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out
throughout the night.”
Most americans would be shocked by such treatment, and any american not drinking KoolAid would have to totally agree with Durbin!
Yep he dared to say it! Durbin thinks america is better than treating prisoners like this. The right’s propoganda? Durbin hates america! B.B. even takes it as far as Durbin’s credibility is at stake because he quoted an FBI testimonial that said we’re torturing people. Torturing prisoners and publicly condemning those who speak out against it does not win a war on terror. (Probably the opposite). I don’t think the place needs to be shut down, but I think our president and everybody around him should publicly strongly condemn any allegation of torture at all times.[/quote]
Wow, the terrorists aren’t being given proper airconditioning… I can see where the Nazi comparisons would come up – mass gassing of civilians who had been subjected to hard-labor environs vs. lack of a/c. Makes sense to me…
Just curious, but has Durbin run an A/C check in Castro’s facilities? Maybe Durbin would like to make a comment on our lack of turndown service and mints on pillows as well, and how that’s akin to the Japanese death camps in WWII.
As to the other, it sounds like a slight variation on straight solitary confinement practices.
Why don’t you elaborate on what he meant with his specific comparison, since you seem to have decided that by bringing up gulags, nazis et al, he wasn’t actually comparing Gitmo or our government to those examples?
[quote]100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Ditto to what BB said.
Hilarious, Durbin says something true and dittoheads explode everywhere. The fake outrage over a statement like this:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings.”
It’s amazing first how predictable the right is—instantly attacking a person who dared to say something true! Did he compare Gitmo to gulags? Nope. Did he say that you’d think the previous passage might of happened in a gulag! Did it seem like we had concern for human beings in this passage?
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and
foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated
or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one
occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so
cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold…On another
occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the
unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the
floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out
throughout the night.”
Most americans would be shocked by such treatment, and any american not drinking KoolAid would have to totally agree with Durbin!
Yep he dared to say it! Durbin thinks america is better than treating prisoners like this. The right’s propoganda? Durbin hates america! B.B. even takes it as far as Durbin’s credibility is at stake because he quoted an FBI testimonial that said we’re torturing people. Torturing prisoners and publicly condemning those who speak out against it does not win a war on terror. (Probably the opposite). I don’t think the place needs to be shut down, but I think our president and everybody around him should publicly strongly condemn any allegation of torture at all times.[/quote]
100
Care to stick to the topic? Is it necessary? USeful? Alternatives? I know that’s hard for you to think anout alternatives but you already got your anti credo out of the way.
By the way, as any veteran will tell you, the military is not real big on air conditioning.
Is it mentioned in the Geneva convention somewhere? What type of heating and cooling did they have in the Siberian Gulags?
[quote]hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Ditto to what BB said.
Hilarious, Durbin says something true and dittoheads explode everywhere. The fake outrage over a statement like this:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings.”
It’s amazing first how predictable the right is—instantly attacking a person who dared to say something true! Did he compare Gitmo to gulags? Nope. Did he say that you’d think the previous passage might of happened in a gulag! Did it seem like we had concern for human beings in this passage?
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and
foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated
or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one
occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so
cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold…On another
occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the
unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the
floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out
throughout the night.”
Most americans would be shocked by such treatment, and any american not drinking KoolAid would have to totally agree with Durbin!
Yep he dared to say it! Durbin thinks america is better than treating prisoners like this. The right’s propoganda? Durbin hates america! B.B. even takes it as far as Durbin’s credibility is at stake because he quoted an FBI testimonial that said we’re torturing people. Torturing prisoners and publicly condemning those who speak out against it does not win a war on terror. (Probably the opposite). I don’t think the place needs to be shut down, but I think our president and everybody around him should publicly strongly condemn any allegation of torture at all times.
100
Care to stick to the topic? Is it necessary? USeful? Alternatives? I know that’s hard for you to think anout alternatives but you already got your anti credo out of the way.
By the way, as any veteran will tell you, the military is not real big on air conditioning.
Is it mentioned in the Geneva convention somewhere? What type of heating and cooling did they have in the Siberian Gulags?
[/quote]
Oy! you and B.B.'s faking is ridiculous (The only thing wrong is the a.c.-ha!) anyway my position was clear we should keep the place open, it is useful, it is needed, however a hardline needs to be taken on any public allegations of “torture”. You guys understand that terrorists attack us because of our policies right? So obviously a perception of torturing muslims policy is an american safety nightmare?
Oh goodness I just checked the Moonie Times and they have this false headline:
Gitmo called death camp
A right-wing rag lying about a dem, that’s new!—looks to just mention the a.c. too! Amazing what removing the context can do to an article.!
[quote]100meters wrote:
hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Ditto to what BB said.
Hilarious, Durbin says something true and dittoheads explode everywhere. The fake outrage over a statement like this:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what
Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have
been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings.”
It’s amazing first how predictable the right is—instantly attacking a person who dared to say something true! Did he compare Gitmo to gulags? Nope. Did he say that you’d think the previous passage might of happened in a gulag! Did it seem like we had concern for human beings in this passage?
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and
foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated
or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one
occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so
cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold…On another
occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the
unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the
floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out
throughout the night.”
Most americans would be shocked by such treatment, and any american not drinking KoolAid would have to totally agree with Durbin!
Yep he dared to say it! Durbin thinks america is better than treating prisoners like this. The right’s propoganda? Durbin hates america! B.B. even takes it as far as Durbin’s credibility is at stake because he quoted an FBI testimonial that said we’re torturing people. Torturing prisoners and publicly condemning those who speak out against it does not win a war on terror. (Probably the opposite). I don’t think the place needs to be shut down, but I think our president and everybody around him should publicly strongly condemn any allegation of torture at all times.
100
Care to stick to the topic? Is it necessary? USeful? Alternatives? I know that’s hard for you to think anout alternatives but you already got your anti credo out of the way.
By the way, as any veteran will tell you, the military is not real big on air conditioning.
Is it mentioned in the Geneva convention somewhere? What type of heating and cooling did they have in the Siberian Gulags?
Oy! you and B.B.'s faking is ridiculous (The only thing wrong is the a.c.-ha!) anyway my position was clear we should keep the place open, it is useful, it is needed, however a hardline needs to be taken on any public allegations of “torture”. You guys understand that terrorists attack us because of our policies right? So obviously a perception of torturing muslims policy is an american safety nightmare?
Oh goodness I just checked the Moonie Times and they have this false headline:
Gitmo called death camp
A right-wing rag lying about a dem, that’s new!—looks to just mention the a.c. too! Amazing what removing the context can do to an article.![/quote]
As much as I enjoy watching you froth at the mouth with hatred over Bush I am going to stick to the point and try to get reasonable opinions from bothe sides.
Hopefully others will chime in. I don’t think 1 on 1 agruments add to the discourse on any forum, particularly about the rhetorical style of the posters.
[quote]100meters wrote:
Oy! you and B.B.'s faking is ridiculous (The only thing wrong is the a.c.-ha!) anyway my position was clear we should keep the place open, it is useful, …
[/quote]
Not only did you ignore the fact that you only made two allegations, both of which I addressed above, and one of which concerned controlling the temperature via manipulation of air conditioning, but you completely avoided the question of what exactly he was trying to say if he wasn’t making a comparison between U.S. interrogators and Nazis/communists, or between the U.S. prison camp at Gitmo and Nazi concentration camps, Soviet gulags, and Pol Pot?
If I were to say something along the lines of “if you looked at the tax rates and worker rules in place in France, and you didn’t know they were French, you might think they were from the Nazis or the Communist Chinese”, what precisely would you think I was trying to say with that remark?
Without the implicit or explicit comparison, that juxtaposition has no meaning. Just because Democrats/liberals aren’t used to being held to actual logical and factual standards when they toss out their Nazi/Hitler/fascist insults in every other sentence doesn’t mean it’s an overreaction or a right-wing plot to actually hold them to such logical and factual standards.
[quote]100meters wrote:
…it is needed, however a hardline needs to be taken on any public allegations of “torture”. You guys understand that terrorists attack us because of our policies right? So obviously a perception of torturing muslims policy is an american safety nightmare?
…[/quote]
I think you need to rethink your definition of “torture” if air conditioning and solitary confinement are included within it. Words mean things, and doing things that make a prisoner uncomfortable or break him down psychologically are not tantamount to torture simply because they are unpleasant.
Now as to your last sentence above, who do you think has done more to promote the idea that Americans are torturing Muslims, the people following the protocols at Gitmo, or idiots like Senator Durbin, whose moronic comparison has been running non-stop on al Jazeera?
Boston, what kind of medicinal pain killing weeds are you smoking?
Why oh why does it make things okay by pointing at worse transgressions made by others. This sounds like grade school argumentation to me.
The issue of US behavior should have nothing to do with what other losers around the world are doing. If your neighbor murders 50 people tomorrow, are you justified in murdering a couple?
Why are these tired and shameful arguments thrown out there? If you want to argue about GITMO, at least argue about GITMO, and not try to issue some stupid nonsense politically motivated bullshit justification.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
What’s even more laughable, or sad, depending on your outlook, is that on the same island there are actual political prisoners who are treated much worse in Castro’s prisons.
vroom wrote:
Boston, what kind of medicinal pain killing weeds are you smoking?
Why oh why does it make things okay by pointing at worse transgressions made by others. This sounds like grade school argumentation to me.
The issue of US behavior should have nothing to do with what other losers around the world are doing. If your neighbor murders 50 people tomorrow, are you justified in murdering a couple?
Why are these tired and shameful arguments thrown out there? If you want to argue about GITMO, at least argue about GITMO, and not try to issue some stupid nonsense politically motivated bullshit justification.[/quote]
vroom,
My point in what you quoted related to Durbin’s comparison – and indirectly to the Amnesty International silliness. I wasn’t using that reasoning as a defense of U.S. actions. As you said, to do that with a “well, they’re worse” comparison would not be much of a defense.
Gitmo is completely defensible on other grounds – most especially in that the interrogation techniques they are applying there are legal and fall under no sane definition of “torture.”
Cool, I can live with this line of argument.
However, I think if you want to argue this morally you have to consider the bigger picture, not just purely legal definitions.
Questions do remain.
Are people shipped off to other countries where they will be tortured?
Is the place needed so that some of the US laws or jurisdictions can be skirted?
Are the officially approved methods of interrogation the only ones that are actually in use?
I’m not clamining to know the answers. There are claims of various things that arise from time to time. It would be unwise to assume they are all baseless just as it would be unwise to assume they are all true.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Gitmo is completely defensible on other grounds – most especially in that the interrogation techniques they are applying there are legal and fall under no sane definition of “torture.”
Cool, I can live with this line of argument.
However, I think if you want to argue this morally you have to consider the bigger picture, not just purely legal definitions.
Questions do remain.
Are people shipped off to other countries where they will be tortured?
Is the place needed so that some of the US laws or jurisdictions can be skirted?
Are the officially approved methods of interrogation the only ones that are actually in use?
I’m not clamining to know the answers. There are claims of various things that arise from time to time. It would be unwise to assume they are all baseless just as it would be unwise to assume they are all true.[/quote]
If they are wanted by those countries
for crimes committed, yes they are
sent to them.
( one of the techniques they use is
threatening to send them to a
third party country)
Yes that is the primary reason they
are being held as enemy combatants
in another country.
I doubt it. I am sure there are
others being used. It is a question
of defining what constitutes torture
and what is interrogation.
What about the goat herder who was just tending to his animals in some remote village in Afghanistan. With no allegiance to the Taliban or the US backed Gov. Who one fine spring day finds himself rounded up in a “terrorist sweep” and is hauled off to Gitmo.
He doesn’t know when or if he will be released, he is confined, imprisoned, and let’s be realistic whether tortured or not or AC or not, he is not treated very well. Is that right? Would you like if it happened to you? Will he have a good image of America if he is ever released.
BB, you have worked hard and as a corporate lawyer live a very comfortable lifestyle. Would you like it if you were plucked out of that existence one day and imprisoned for no apparent reason?
For those guilty of terrorism, I could give a shit where they are held, but I have read there are many that could be described by the paragraphs above.
[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
What about the goat herder who was just tending to his animals in some remote village in Afghanistan. With no allegiance to the Taliban or the US backed Gov. Who one fine spring day finds himself rounded up in a “terrorist sweep” and is hauled off to Gitmo.
He doesn’t know when or if he will be released, he is confined, imprisoned, and let’s be realistic whether tortured or not or AC or not, he is not treated very well. Is that right? Would you like if it happened to you? Will he have a good image of America if he is ever released.
BB, you have worked hard and as a corporate lawyer live a very comfortable lifestyle. Would you like it if you were plucked out of that existence one day and imprisoned for no apparent reason?
For those guilty of terrorism, I could give a shit where they are held, but I have read there are many that could be described by the paragraphs above. [/quote]
Elk,
If that situation exists, and it may, I would agree with ,you set him free.
How do you determine who is innocent and who are terrorists? That’s the difficult part.
Elk,
I’m always bothered by the idea of innocents getting caught up in these things, but at the same time because of the nature of war and armed conflict, you can’t have a jury trial with months of factfinding for everyone. People who circumstantially appear guilty will get taken in.
Without agreeing or disagreeing with you in your contention that there are “many” such cases, as I don’t really know, all I can say is that I hope that we make restitution to anyone who we know was wrongly caught up in this.
Simple, torture them until they confess! Oh sorry, let me rephrase, tickle their feet with feathers until they confess.
I read an article awhile back that alluded to that. I don’t know the extent or truth of it. I don’t really know the intricate details of Gitmo and those detained, just something to think about.
[quote]vroom wrote:
How do you determine who is innocent and who are terrorists? That’s the difficult part.
Simple, torture them until they confess! Oh sorry, let me rephrase, tickle their feet with feathers until they confess.[/quote]
Or you could interrogate them and determine if they have terrorist ties and useful information?
Prison is full of innocent people, just ask the inmates.
Hedo,
You were doing very well.
However, comparing hastily rounded up people to prisoners, who have gone through a system meant to ensure only those guilty are on the inside, is not a good comparison.
I’m sure you know that…