[quote]vroom wrote:
Prison is full of innocent people, just ask the inmates.
Hedo,
You were doing very well.
However, comparing hastily rounded up people to prisoners, who have gone through a system meant to ensure only those guilty are on the inside, is not a good comparison.
I’m sure you know that…[/quote]
Sounds like we have both staked out our positions.
Don’t worry I’m still doing well.
Still asking is Gitmo useful and necessary? If not what is the alternative to it? Don’t take any prisoners? Let them all go?
Gitmo and places like it will probably always be a necessary evil for us and our military.
Durbin’s comparisons were far from patriotic 100. Yes he quoted FBI intelligence that suggested torture, but nowhere did the FBI equate Gitmo to Nazi slaughterhouses or Russian gulags. That was his own phraseology and once again it will backfire on the left. many have already distanced themselves from the exact comments, though not from the ideaology that he was trying to convey.
What the U.S. can NOT allow is any crime to occur which we ourselves have tried to enforce through treaty ratifications from the past. We absolutelu must be above board on this. There will always be rhetoric from the haters, dissenters, the Islamic community as to the treatment at these facilities. We need to stay clean, but not be afraid to go right up to that line to gather any info that may help our troops and our cause.
Unfortunately Elk, you are right, some innocent people will have their lives turned upside down for mere association or possible association with the wrong group. Horrible and terible yes, but it happens in our society as well at times. Sorry isn’t good enough, but there is nothing else to do about it.
Durbin’s comparisons were far from patriotic 100. Yes he quoted FBI intelligence that suggested torture, but nowhere did the FBI equate Gitmo to Nazi slaughterhouses or Russian gulags. That was his own phraseology and once again it will backfire on the left. many have already distanced themselves from the exact comments, though not from the ideaology that he was trying to convey.
What the U.S. can NOT allow is any crime to occur which we ourselves have tried to enforce through treaty ratifications from the past. We absolutelu must be above board on this. There will always be rhetoric from the haters, dissenters, the Islamic community as to the treatment at these facilities. We need to stay clean, but not be afraid to go right up to that line to gather any info that may help our troops and our cause.
Unfortunately Elk, you are right, some innocent people will have their lives turned upside down for mere association or possible association with the wrong group. Horrible and terible yes, but it happens in our society as well at times. Sorry isn’t good enough, but there is nothing else to do about it.[/quote]
Well I don’t think saying true things is unpatriotic, and of course it isn’t. Of course obviously the right will lie about what Durbin said, nobody will actually quote Durbin, no that would be too fair- to accurate, to understandable, so the correct procedure is attack the messenger and lie about what he said.
Durbin states the obvious, anybody hearing the fbi statement without the relevant context could assume he was describing something happening at a gulag—and obviously he’s exactly right. How do you know he’s right, well instead of telling the truth the right lies about what was said, as headlined in the looney paper washington times:
Gitmo called Deathcamp.
If the right was being honest they’d just say Durbin says something true about treatment we just don’t care about.
Or simply “Right admits we don’t care what happens to prisoners at Gitmo”—of course that doesn’t really sound good to voters hence “Gitmo called deathcamp” (which confuses the rubes as to who is really extreme)
Even wackier is the denial that we are torturing people, B.B. is even faking that we are doing anything close to torture
If the U.N. defines torture as:
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
Then it would seem that fbi letters demanding investigation like:
The detainee was shackled and his hands were cuffed to his waist. [REDACTED] observed [REDACTED] apparently whispering in the detainee’s ear and caressing and applying lotion to his arms (this was during Ramadan when physical contact with a woman would have been particularly offensive to a Moslem male.) On more than one occasion the detainee appeared to be grimacing in pain and [REDACTED] hands appeared to be making some contact with the detainee.
Although [REDACTED] could not see her hands at all times. He saw them moving toward the detainee’s lap. He also observed the detainee pulling away and against the restraints. Subsequently, the marine who previously taped the curtain and had been in the interrogation room with [REDACTED] during the interrogation re-entered the observation room.
[REDACTED] asked what had happened to cause the detainee to grimace in pain. The marine said [REDACTED] had grabbed the detainee’s thumbs and bent them backwards and indicated that she also grabbed his genitals. The marine also implied that her treatment of the detainee was less harsh than her treatment of others by indicating that he had seen her treatment of other detainees result in detainees curling into a fetal position on the floor and crying in pain.
seems to meet any normal persons standard of torture, as does
In September or October of 2002, FBI agents observed that a canine was used in an aggressive manner to intimidate detainee [REDACTED} and, in November 2002, FBI agents observed Detainee [REDACTED] after he had been subjected to intense isolation for over three months. During that time period, [REDACTED] was totally isolated (with the exception of occasional interrogations) in a cell that was always flooded with light.
By late November, the detainee was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma (talking to non-existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a corner of the cell covered with a sheet for hours on end).
Keep in mind they were accessing incomplete logs–so we have no idea what else may have been done. The FBI letters and emails actually say the dod personel is using torture techniques, and fbi was telling command that dod was impersonating fbi agents and that if word ever got out to the public from a detainee who believed the lying DOD personel, the FBI could be left holding the bag. An email also says:
“These tactics have produced no intelligence of a threat neutralization nature to date and CITF believes that techniques have destroyed any chance of prosecuting this detainee”
This FBI testimonial doesn’t “suggest” torture, it says torture!
Is a place to hold enemy combatants necessary and by virtue of it’s existence is Gitmo the place?
I say yes.
Also I think agressive interrogation is justified against an enemy that seeks to make “total war” upon us. The Islamofacist started this waqr and too bad for them if they and the amnesty international doves don’t like the way it is prosecuted. They had the option of not attacking us and choose poorly.
100-
Durbnin is an idiot. You know it and so do most rational people. He is trying to draw a parralel that doesn’t exist. There’s a right way to make a point and a ridiculous way to make a point. Durbin probably cost himself his seat in the next election. Biden had an issue and made his point with decorum and facts. I think he was still wrong but hey at least I respect his opinion. Durbin is a fringe loony.
I watched a replay of the entire speech on the U.S. Senate channel. Saw it replayed (in context) many times since.
If Dick “I’m a sexpot” Durbin believes this rubbish, he should AT LEAST go to Gitmo for a look-see.
Oh, did you catch the part where he apparently took some “liberties” with the FBI agent’s actual remarks.
Of course you didn’t, “It’s a vast right wing conspiracy!!!”
I love you, man!!!
JeffR[/quote]
Uhmmm Jeff, If you watched his speech you know he was asking the president to make sure the prisoners are not being tortured, and he quote one of many FBI letters that say we are torturing people there? How is that rubbish? And why shouldn’t he believe the FBI?
Here’s rubbish:
“Cat Killer” Frist said that Durbin claimed our troops are:?committing genocide and war crimes.?
See the difference? One guy quoted evidence (the dem) and one guy just made shit up (Fristy!)
As for the liberties taken, I posted Durbin’s remark and the actual letter—not a huge difference eh?
Correct if I’m wrong, but didn’t dick “Hold the Press” durbin vote against both Gulf War I and II?
Wasn’t he concerned about the Iraqi’s or the people of Kuwait?
Do you think saddam had air conditioning in the dungeons?
JeffR[/quote]
While you’re thrilled to claim:
“America, we aren’t as bad as Iraq!”
Durbin(you did watch his speech right?) was holding america to a higher standard. In fact he finished with:
“To criticize the rest of the world for using torture and to turn a blind eye to what we are
doing in this war is wrong, and it is not American.”
What an odd thing Jeff to be concerned about the treatment of those in Saddam’s prisons, but not the treatment in our own? Let alone not caring how this effects the safety of americans around the world, a point Durbin also made…as you know(cause you watched his whole speech)
100 meters, I am sure you are a decent guy, nice to animals and old people, but in the political arena you fall in the category of a fool.
I try to never argue with a fool.[/quote]
Weird that quoting actual FBI letters/emails confirming my viewpoint would make me a fool?
and funny that you would bother to say anything–your post said
“Ditto to what BB said.”
After B.B. repeated Cheney’s talking point:
"the issue is that the people who are most against Gitmo are also most against U.S. foreign policy and the War on Terror. "
cheney said:
"“Those who most urgently advocate that we shut down Guantanamo probably don’t agree with our policy anyway,”
(boy, these talking points move fast!)
apparently the serial drunk driving Veep doesn’t have T.V. or something, because he forgot people in his own party who disagree with him, and that our policies in Gitmo work against our “War on Terror” and they work against our soldiers fighting the “War on Terror”
and your response was “ditto”.
I guess I could have said ditto, but unfortunately I strongly disagree with Cheney, and by extension B.B. and in order to make my case I linked to and quoted ACTUAL FBI letters and emails that say we are using “torture techniques” there. As you’ll remember I feel Gitmo is useful and absolutely necessary, but any hint of torture should be utterly condemned instantly by our admin ( I srongly believe one aspect of the war on terror is the propoganda war or the P.R. campaign—that’s just my opinon though)
I can’t see anybody’s addressed the issue of whether Gitmo is serving any purpose or not. The only purpose I can see is so the administration can point to something it’s doing in the war on terror. It’s in a category with confiscating manicure scissors from Grammy when she flies cross country to visit the grandkids.
They’re not getting any useful intelligence out of that place, and whatever they did get or might have got from the people being held there is mainly of historical interest at this point.
As for warehousing prisoners, why bother. Send the lot of them home. You’ll never notice them among all the other hostiles still out there.
We need improved PR more than we need these prisoners, at this point. Gitmo is nothing but a public relations liability for the country as a whole, even among our allies. Hanging onto this thing is just a face-saving measure for Bush, Cheney and company.
Even you hard-liners should think on this one. After all, what tactical good does it do to expose us all as tyros at torture?
"Oy! you and B.B.'s faking is ridiculous (The only thing wrong is the a.c.-ha!) anyway my position was clear we should keep the place open, it is useful, it is needed, however a hardline needs to be taken on any public allegations of “torture”. You guys understand that terrorists attack us because of our policies right? So obviously a perception of torturing muslims policy is an american safety nightmare? "
Maybe assholes like Durbin and you should keep their mouths shut then about things that they know nothing about. If idiots wouldnt spout off their ill-gotten opinion, then the radical muslim world would lose a lot of their propaganda. Take a look at Al-Jazeera right now. they LOVE Durbin. I am sure he is proud of that.
If you dont think Gitmo is necessary and you feel sorry for people of Iraq and Afghanistan because the liberal press says that many innocent people are being rounded up, then you should go these countries yourslef. The majority of people in Iraq and Afghanistan want us there and know that the NEED us.
Gitmo os necessary. These people due not deserve due process and all the other things that we Americans do. they are enemy combatants. That means no lawyer, no nothing except some food and water. They have NO rights. Their rights were taken awayt he day that the decided to fuck with America.
Personally, I think after the prisoners have served their purpose for us, we should cut their heads off with a dull knife, just like good ol Al Queda does to us.
I wish I could love in the fantasy world that some of you people seem to be living in.
I could go on and on how the people that live their lives day in and day out and believe that idiots like Durbin are right, and the UN is a great institution, and we should be respectful of our enemy are living sheltered lives, but I wont. Just know that if these people ran our country we would surely fall. For more reasons than one and it makes me sick.
This reminds me of a great quote "“Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom…You have the luxury of not knowing what I know…And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because, deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said “thank you” and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.”
pretty much sums up my opinion of people like Dick Durbin, Hillart Clinton, et al.
[quote]GeneralLee wrote:
Maybe assholes like Durbin and you should keep their mouths shut then about things that they know nothing about. If idiots wouldnt spout off their ill-gotten opinion, then the radical muslim world would lose a lot of their propaganda. Take a look at Al-Jazeera right now. they LOVE Durbin. I am sure he is proud of that.
[/quote]
gee, they love an american speaking out strongly against our policies at Gitmo, And they hate the people who created the policy…Hmmmm…That seems like part of my point.
I thought I said it was absolutely necessary?
Just incredibly dumb and totally unamerican.
Oh, you are in fantasy land…cutting off prisoners heads with a dull knife…whatever you say Alice.
Bush slumbered, demoted terrorism as a priority, worried about star wars, and then 9/11 happened. He didn’t understand terrorism then, and he doesn’t now–I think I’d pass on this kind of leadership.
While you’re thrilled to claim:
“America, we aren’t as bad as Iraq!”
Thanks for tacictly approving my comment. That’s as close to it as I’m ever going to get. Instead of, “Yes, Jeff. It does seem strange to worry about air conditioning when he voted against both Gulf Wars. We were fully aware of the mass murder and torture happening. Yet, he still voted against it. To have voted against stopping far worse abuses, and now to be taking liberties with an FBI report, seems very hypocritical.”
Too bad!!!
"Durbin(you did watch his speech right?) was holding america to a higher standard. In fact he finished with:
“To criticize the rest of the world for using torture and to turn a blind eye to what we are
doing in this war is wrong, and it is not American.”
That’s so nice, lumpy. Now, this moron has now given al jazerra plenty of front page press.
Great!!!
This was it, lumpy. This was the one time you could have criticized your own party. This was an obvious one!!!
What was it that your pal in Virginia, Warner, said yesterday?
He criticized the remarks openly and candidly.
You’d get far more respect if you had the sack to fake a little objectivity.
I’m up 47-0 on you!!!
“What an odd thing Jeff to be concerned about the treatment of those in Saddam’s prisons, but not the treatment in our own? Let alone not caring how this effects the safety of americans around the world, a point Durbin also made…as you know(cause you watched his whole speech)”
Ok, shitwit. Has anyone here hinted that we don’t care about the care of our prisoners?
Thanks for the usual dodge and hustle.
For the second time, I watched the entire speech and then multiple replays. Are you having trouble believing that?
Any asswipe should know that there are certain NUCLEAR words in the English language. Whatever is said after that is mostly irrelevant.
nazi and gulag are two of those words.
This dink knew exactly what he was doing. He was trying to get his ugly ass re-elected by pandering to the far, far looney left.
Too bad you can’t criticize a single thing your party does. This one was ignorant. Worse, it has the potential to give our enemies talking points. You know from the B.S. newsweek article what can happen.