These are FBI agents talking, not accused terrorists. Maybe you don’t believe locking someone in a 100 degree room until he pulls his hair out is torture, although I question what your definition is then. But way to win friends in the Islamic world, profaning the Koran and wrapping detainees in the Israeli flag. Wow.
100 degrees? Horrible. It probably feels like air conditioning to some of them.
Dressing as a priest and fake baptizing someone? Crime against humanity!
The fact that you and The Guardian so desperately want to characterize this chickenshit stuff as torture shows your bias.
All these stories make me realize that we are mostly handling these scum bags with kid gloves.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
These are FBI agents talking, not accused terrorists. Maybe you don’t believe locking someone in a 100 degree room until he pulls his hair out is torture, although I question what your definition is then. But way to win friends in the Islamic world, profaning the Koran and wrapping detainees in the Israeli flag. Wow.[/quote]
Oh, God. A 100-degree room? Oh. That’s just terrible. I cut the grass one day last year when it was over 100. Who can I sue for that torture? I mean, I was sweating and everything. My airconditioner broke one day last summer too! I should sue the bastards 'cause I was really uncomfortable and couldn’t sleep all that well. I had enough self-control to not pull my hair out, though.
Give me a break. What should we do? Make these bastards as comfortable as we can and hope the give us some information?
There are people who take yoga classes in rooms at 100+ degrees temperature.
ACLU, call your office!
Can you imagine if this kind of “torture” were portrayed in some big buget Hollywood blockbuster? Instead of having Bruce Willis pistol whipping some guy to get him to talk, we’ve got Toby McGuire locking some guy in a hot room to get him to spill the beans. Oh, the horror.
They hate us because of our air conditioning.
Bet it was hotter on the 79th floor of the WTC after the jet fuel caught fire…just saying.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
These are FBI agents talking, not accused terrorists. Maybe you don’t believe locking someone in a 100 degree room until he pulls his hair out is torture, although I question what your definition is then.[/quote]
My hair falls out on its own no matter what temperature the room is, can I bring Merck up on war crimes charges for torturing me?
And can the Catholic Church be brought up on war crimes for baptising millions of people every year? How about christenings?
That doesn’t sound like torture to me. It sounds like stupid frat brothers trying to outdo each other.
Are those “techniques” really producing results? Or is the only end product to incite more hatred towards the West when that kinds of stuff leaks out?
Really, is defacing a Qu’ran going to break a hardened terrorist? Can someone willing to blow himself up in a crowd be cowed by wrapping him in a flag?
It looks to me like the interrogators don’t really know how to extract information and resort to playing humiliation games. I don’t think it’s productive; in fact, I think that kind of stuff simply makes us (well you) look like idiots to the world.
And for those who call this “torture”, let me ask you: I offer you the choice of being tortured the Gitmo way or the Saudi Arabian way. Or Soviet way, or Chinese way. Which one would you pick? Thought so.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
100 degrees? Horrible. It probably feels like air conditioning to some of them.
Dressing as a priest and fake baptizing someone? Crime against humanity!
The fact that you and The Guardian so desperately want to characterize this chickenshit stuff as torture shows your bias.[/quote]
And what bias would that be exactly? A bias in favor of Americans treating prisoners humanely, as we have for centuries before, going back to Washington? Guilty as charged.
You guys can make all the stupid flippant comments you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that Bush and co. have reversed centuries of precedent, and destroyed America’s moral authority. I’d say if you have a guy tearing his hair out because of something you’re doing to him, it’s probably torture.
More importantly, as only pookie picked up on, do none of you realize it’s things like this that lose us the war? The war on terrorism is a media war more than it is a military one. That may suck, and it may not play to our strengths, but it’s a fact. Abu Ghraib had a greater impact on this war than the Second Battle of Fallujah. Humiliating our captives, especially when we target their religion, tells millions of neutral Muslims that we’re exactly what Al Qaeda’s propaganda says we are. Think about it.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
You guys can make all the stupid flippant comments you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that Bush and co. have reversed centuries of precedent, and destroyed America’s moral authority. I’d say if you have a guy tearing his hair out because of something you’re doing to him, it’s probably torture.
More importantly, as only pookie picked up on, do none of you realize it’s things like this that lose us the war? The war on terrorism is a media war more than it is a military one. That may suck, and it may not play to our strengths, but it’s a fact. Abu Ghraib had a greater impact on this war than the Second Battle of Fallujah. Humiliating our captives, especially when we target their religion, tells millions of neutral Muslims that we’re exactly what Al Qaeda’s propaganda says we are. Think about it.[/quote]
G
Your a student of military history right? You have to realize prisoners like the ones held in Gitmo would have been shot at the front, by the troops, prior to the Vietnam war, arguably a much less humane treatment. Irregular troops rarely if ever made it to the rear. The reference that we have always treated prisoners such as these, as guests ,is simply not true.
If anything, drivel like this, from the FBI, emboldens the enemy. It demonstrates weakness rather then superior moral character.
If torture wasn’t effective interrogators wouldn’t make such a fuss about using it. Despite what civilians are told, it’s effective and has cracked more then a few of these murdering thugs.
An insuregency will survive and fester until it is crushed. We lack the political will to crush it. When we decide a victory is more important then political correctness it will end. That is something Washington, and every military leader since would have understood.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
100 degrees? Horrible. It probably feels like air conditioning to some of them.
Dressing as a priest and fake baptizing someone? Crime against humanity!
The fact that you and The Guardian so desperately want to characterize this chickenshit stuff as torture shows your bias.
And what bias would that be exactly? A bias in favor of Americans treating prisoners humanely, as we have for centuries before, going back to Washington? Guilty as charged.[/quote]
You ae full of shit. Fake baptising someone is not inhumane. America has done far worse to important prisoners in ALL our other wars and most of the countries around the world treat people even worse.
Your phony moral outrage makes you look foolish.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Your a student of military history right? You have to realize prisoners like the ones held in Gitmo would have been shot at the front, by the troops, prior to the Vietnam war, arguably a much less humane treatment. Irregular troops rarely if ever made it to the rear. The reference that we have always treated prisoners such as these, as guests ,is simply not true.
[/quote]
And I am allways glad to chime in and remind you that a LOT of these people never were close to a battlefield but were handed over to you by the Afghans or Pakistans for a fee…
How some of these people would have been shot being in another country minding their own business remains a mistery to me.
Especially if they minded their own business in Denmark, or Germany, Spain, countries like that…
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Your phony moral outrage makes you look foolish.[/quote]
And your unflinching defense of this administration and anything and everything they choose to do in the name of their so called “war on terror” makes you look foolish.
You see Zap, just because George says it’s cool doesn’t automatically make it cool. And, believe it or not, it’s not automatically un-American to call bullshit on the president.
The concept of “pay it forward” applies just as equally to bad will as it does to good. We’re buying the bad will of many future generations of a couple billion Muslims. Good policy?
I guess it is if our intent is a “final confrontation” scenario between Christianity and Islam. Is that what Pat Robertson has been telling George he has to do? Or, I mean, what Pat has been telling George that God has told him to do?
They talk frequently, you know.
[quote]tme wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Your phony moral outrage makes you look foolish.
And your unflinching defense of this administration and anything and everything they choose to do in the name of their so called “war on terror” makes you look foolish.
You see Zap, just because George says it’s cool doesn’t automatically make it cool. And, believe it or not, it’s not automatically un-American to call bullshit on the president.
The concept of “pay it forward” applies just as equally to bad will as it does to good. We’re buying the bad will of many future generations of a couple billion Muslims. Good policy?
I guess it is if our intent is a “final confrontation” scenario between Christianity and Islam. Is that what Pat Robertson has been telling George he has to do? Or, I mean, what Pat has been telling George that God has told him to do?
They talk frequently, you know.[/quote]
You are a nut job. This is about the FBI in a power struggle with the military for who gets to control and interrogate unlawful combatants.
The FBI leaks this ridculous shit in an effort to embarrass the military.
Fools call fake baptisms torture and other fools start talking about Pat Robertson and God.
Please stay on topic.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Please stay on topic.[/quote]
And how is that fun?
[quote]tme wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Please stay on topic.
And how is that fun?
[/quote]
You’re right. Making fun of Pat Robertson is always acceptable.
[quote]orion wrote:
a LOT of these people never were close to a battlefield but were handed over to you by the Afghans or Pakistans for a fee…
[/quote]
5000 dollars cash, per head. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that most of these guys are not guilty of anything, except being in th wrong place at the wrong time, or just a victim of a tribal grudge.
Yeah, in another era an enemy combatant would have been shot on the field of battle… but that would only happen after a hearing. These guys in Gitmo were never given the benefit of a hearing.
If the guys at Gitmo are so dangerous, if they are so guilty, then it should be easy to charge them with something… with anything. Why hasn’t that happened?
How many succesful prosecutions has Bush’s war on terror yielded so far? I think the answer is zero, actually. They’ve actually let a few people go, after abusing them (I bet those people have no new incentive to hate America now, huh?) Zero succesful prosecutions of an alleged enemy combatant, to my knowledge. Quite a record of accomplishment, there.
The US government is torturing people. They tortured Jose Padilla (a citizen) to the point that he’s too crazy to put on trial. And all he did was apparantly talk a bunch of shit. Any of the original charges that alleged that Padilla was actually doing anything more than just talking shit have been dropped.
Your government tortures people, deal with it. Torture will be Bush and Cheney’s legacy. We send prisoners to other countries (like Syria) where we KNOW they will be tortured. Oh sure, nothing new… like during WW2 we rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in concentration camps. But don’t forget that is considered one of America’s biggest shames.
Gitmo will be another.
I feel so proud!
[quote]Brad61 wrote:
orion wrote:
a LOT of these people never were close to a battlefield but were handed over to you by the Afghans or Pakistans for a fee…
5000 dollars cash, per head. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that most of these guys are not guilty of anything, except being in th wrong place at the wrong time, or just a victim of a tribal grudge.
Yeah, in another era an enemy combatant would have been shot on the field of battle… but that would only happen after a hearing. These guys in Gitmo were never given the benefit of a hearing.
If the guys at Gitmo are so dangerous, if they are so guilty, then it should be easy to charge them with something… with anything. Why hasn’t that happened?
How many succesful prosecutions has Bush’s war on terror yielded so far? I think the answer is zero, actually. They’ve actually let a few people go, after abusing them (I bet those people have no new incentive to hate America now, huh?) Zero succesful prosecutions of an alleged enemy combatant, to my knowledge. Quite a record of accomplishment, there.
The US government is torturing people. They tortured Jose Padilla (a citizen) to the point that he’s too crazy to put on trial. And all he did was apparantly talk a bunch of shit. Any of the original charges that alleged that Padilla was actually doing anything more than just talking shit have been dropped.
Your government tortures people, deal with it. Torture will be Bush and Cheney’s legacy. We send prisoners to other countries (like Syria) where we KNOW they will be tortured. Oh sure, nothing new… like during WW2 we rounded up Japanese Americans and put them in concentration camps. But don’t forget that is considered one of America’s biggest shames.
Gitmo will be another.
I feel so proud![/quote]
Since you and Orion are using extreme example to support a weak claim how do you defend the prisoners who were released and then captured again fighting? Just a detail right…we should have treated them nicer then they wouldn’t want to fight us right?
Nothing I need to get over. What they are doing isn’t torture and I don’t consider harsh treatment of the enemy to be bad thing. You do. If these thugs are wanted for crimes in Syria or Saudi they should be returned to them and if they torture them I couldn’t care less. If that offends your tender sensibilities then so be it…it’s not like you’d ever pick up a gun, put a uniform on and fight for anything is it?
Where do you come up with this silliness? Enemy combatants not wearing a uniform were not tried, they were shot, on the spot. They might have been interogated but they were certainly not treated like guests, given medical treatment and a religously correct diet and access to a Koran.
That’s what war is. Hide among the civilians and try and kill soldiers you got shot. Liberal multiculturalism weakened the fighting will of the military and of the US in general. It goes in cycle and the kid glove treatment of murdering terrorists is over. That’s what you need to get over.
[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
Your a student of military history right? You have to realize prisoners like the ones held in Gitmo would have been shot at the front, by the troops, prior to the Vietnam war, arguably a much less humane treatment. Irregular troops rarely if ever made it to the rear. The reference that we have always treated prisoners such as these, as guests ,is simply not true.
And I am allways glad to chime in and remind you that a LOT of these people never were close to a battlefield but were handed over to you by the Afghans or Pakistans for a fee…
How some of these people would have been shot being in another country minding their own business remains a mistery to me.
Especially if they minded their own business in Denmark, or Germany, Spain, countries like that…[/quote]
Everyone is prison is innocent…just ask them.