Michelle, and some others- you are coming from a pre- supposition that all porn is bad. According to whom? You say “it’s porn, it’s bad!” Why is it bad? It’s only pictures on a page. What about romance novels for women? You could say those are porn for women. Men are stimulated by sight, and women by imagination. Is it wrong for a woman to read a romance novel and get off? Nope. Is it wrong for a man to enjoy a playboy? Nope.
This whole “men are genetically coded to screw as many women as possible” argument stinks like a pile of burning tractor tires. Guess who came up with that argument? Male scientists. Surprised? You shouldn’t be. If women were in the position of social power that men are, you can bet that the argument would somehow (although I’m not sure how) be reversed and that WOMEN would be the ones encouraged to rut with as many males as possible. The Alpha Male argument makes sense for lower animals like dogs and apes, but it just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for humans. The level of socialization necessary for a human to fully develop (not physically, but mentally, i.e. developing and using skills like talking, reasoning, and symbolic communication) is so high that it throws a spanner into the works.
It is generally accepted that the male’s drive is to copulate with as many females as possible so that his genetic material has an increased likelihood of being passed on. The problem with the argument is this: Human beings are primarily social creatures; we depend on each other for self actualization more than any other creature in existence. Without socialization we are little more than hairless apes. Speech centers don’t develop. Cognitive abilities are stunted. Abstract thought is not possible.
Without a strong family unit (and this can take many forms) to care for it, a human child never fully develops it’s “humanity”. It’s survival is tentative at best. The ideal father, in this case, is one that puts the integrity of the family unit FIRST. That is, a loving, caring male who attends to the needs of his family, NOT a horny middle aged adolescent intent on humping anything with a heartbeat and a nice ass. If it is TRULY the drive to successfully pass on his genes that governs his behavior, it makes infinitely much more sense for him to pick a mate AND STICK WITH HER TO RAISE THE YOUNGIN’S. This means mutual sexual exclusivity paired with approximately 20 years of nurturing. In other words, “I promise to only make the nasty face with you. And I’ll stick around to teach the runt cool stuff, like how to break a man’s neck with a swizzle stick.”
Simply put, I don’t believe that our sex drives are gender specific. We are, to put it bluntly, just plain horny as a species. One of us, however, is more likely to get away with acting on those impulses, ‘cause they happened to make the rules.
No one said porn was bad. It may not be appreciated by some. I mean, hey, I don’t mind naked photos of women, but I’m not into hardcore S&M or any type of pornos that depict violence against women. It can be used as a tool in a relationship to enhance things, but in some instances, it can be destructive. Just because someone in a relationship doesn’t like that the other person enjoys porn doesn’t mean that it’s bad. It’s just a matter of compromising the situation. And just because the girl doesn’t like porn, it doesn’t mean she’s going to start trying to change or take away other things in her man’s life. Some of you guys crack me up with your thinking.
I have never meant to imply that all porn is bad. I have nothing against the industry or people who enjoy it. At the same time, I DO have a problem with porn in a relationship that I am in. If a couple gets off on it together, great. If a woman has no problem with her partner looking at it, great. If a man has no problem with his partner looking at it, great. I don’t give a shit.
What I DO have a problem with is the attitude that someone can't live without it, that it's somehow genetically programmed into men to look at it, and that a woman asking her partner not to look at it is some sort of horrible travesty.
Guess what guys? If your partner has your balls in a jar on the shelf it's your own damn fault. Allowing them to OWN you is a choice you make. Many of you seem to have 'complete dominating control' confused with 'compromise in a mature, adult relationship' until you learn the difference you will never have a mature, adult realtionship.
Personally, I don't like romance novels, and if I did and my partner said he didn't like me reading them, I would stop. Why? Because it's not that big of a deal!!!!! We would discuss his reasons, talk about his feelings, talk about my feelings and then reach a decision together. If, however, his feelings were pretty much baseless and I made him see my position, I would expect him to give... just as when he proves his point. See? Maturity and communication is the key, and evidently some of you have missed that.
What do you guys find SO threatening about a woman who stands up for herself? Do you have to own the realtionship and everything you say goes, regardless of her feelings?
Axy - I can give you a few references off of recent posts related to your ever present nasty attitude towards women. Let’s see, on one thread, a woman is a ‘cum dumpster’. Geiger ‘successfully caught the very sinister macabric essence of female soul.’ Women who assert their feelings put ‘collars’ on their men. ‘women are everything but generally nice.’
I think it is rather evident that someone hurt you very badly. I am sorry for that. You can deny it if you want, but, with rare exception, your attitude about women is VERY negative.
Well, I actually would love to be the artist who pencils Vampirella. She’s actually one of the cooler comic book characters (male or female) around. And some of the best artists in comics/sci fi/fantasy have drawn her. I hope someday, I’ll be one.
And porn is actually a non-issue with Ko and I. This is the first time (after reading this thread) that the topic has popped up. Some of yous' are making this issue one of "insecurity" and "self-esteem" while it may be a matter of "personal taste" or "preference".
Yeah, there's some gals with insecurities that maybe getting in the way. But if the guy was smart, he'd use some of the artists I outlined in a previous post and introduce the beauty of a naked body to her - rather than say "here's my stack of 'smut' - and THIS is what I like to read..." THEN she's gonna see it as "smut". Nothing else. You hide it from her, You make it seem "bad" - and she'll take that it as "bad".
As Michelle(and some others)have said, it's communication. Some of you are saying that you do appreciate the female form - have you said that?
Dudes, sometimes it could just be your approach. I'm not saying to serve the mags up on a silver platter during a nice, candlelit dinner. But sometimes our sig others put us on a pedlestool where we are "above" all others. I do this to Ko. Y'know since he is the standard by which I measure all men. Oh, and nope, don't look at other guys, either. I don't go "nice ass" or anything like that. Okay, I do go "nice ass" to Ko. ;-)
I'm just thinking out loud, here. I'm not in the "changing my sig other" for my benefit occupation, but I do believe to be honest and upfront - right away. If ya gotta hankering for Playboy, et al - better let her know right away. Don't hide it. Ko and I had a head start - we were friends/beer buddies for several years before we became girlfriend/boyfriend. I think that makes a difference. 'Scuse the rambling, as I said, I'm thinking out loud.
“Guess what guys? If your partner has your balls in a jar on the shelf it’s your own damn fault.”
The vast majority of my stash has been inherited from friends who have been forced to dump it by their insecure wives. Both of these guys truly do have their balls in jars on a shelf over their fireplace. Before they were married, these were two of the funniest, crudest, most enjoyable people I’ve ever know. Their wives knew exactly who these guys were before they married them. Then, soon after the marriage, they started to try to change the guys. I don’t understand why women are in relationships with men they aren’t happy with. In both cases, the dumping of the porn was just the first step of OPERATION CASTRATION. One of the guys I do now consider to be just pathetic, but the other has kids. He’s not going to divorce of something like this. The women in this thread keep saying “it’s just porn, it’s not that important”, yet it is the women who are willing to end a relationship over it.
“We would discuss his reasons [for wanting you to get rid of romance novels], talk about his feelings, talk about my feelings and then reach a decision together. If, however, his feelings were pretty much baseless and I made him see my position, I would expect him to give.”
I agree that is the right approach. However, in this case, the only reasons given by the women is that the magazines make them feel insecure. That is her issue, not his. She needs to work on her self-esteem. If the guy was saying, “Why can’t you look like that?” or “Why aren’t you that limber?” I could understand. If the guys had no interest in their women because they’d RATHER look at porn, I’d understand.
“What do you guys find SO threatening about a woman who stands up for herself? Do you have to own the realtionship and everything you say goes, regardless of her feelings?”
I don’t need to get my way all of the time. Hell, I’m real happy if between my two kids and my wife I end up getting my way 10% of the time. That’s not the issue. Pretending to accept and love someone, and then turning around and trying to not only change that person but to tell them that they are hurting you by being the exact same person they’ve been since you’ve known them sucks.
Ah, Doogie, you’ve hit it. “The women in this thread keep saying “it’s just porn, it’s not that important”, yet it is the women who are willing to end a relationship over it.” That’s the thing. There are women willing to end a realtionship over a guy NOT getting rid of the porn, and there are guys willing to end one to KEEP the porn. So therein lies the answer… evidently both sides think porn is more important than their partner. That, to me, is rediculous.
As for your friends, they are the ones who allowed their balls to go on display. I feel bad for them, but you have to choose to allow someone to own you. Granted, I'm not saying they should be out carousing with 'the boys' every night of the week, but if their wife acts like their mother, there are some serious relationship issues. I don't have an answer here, I just find the 'parent' relationships sad.
Demo Dick- you crack me up how you always take the women point of view in every discussion- as if it gives you a warm, important feeling in our gut, and you’re gonna score with the women of the forum by being a suck up. Demo- look this word up- Hormone. Thats what directs a mans focus. If you don’t believe it, take a look at any man or animal who has lost it’s testes.
Michelle, of course your going to come from the womans point of view, but how about another frame. Say your man was really uncomfortable with your going to the gym, or something else that you really like. Are you gonna say, okay, they’re are 2 opinion on this issue, and I think you’re right, I won’t go to the gym anymore? Of course not. It’s bullshit. If someone has a problem with who you are or what you do, it’s their descision to either change their mental association to it, ignore it, or leave. The pressure should not be put on the guy to leave the porn. Just as you chastise some guys on this forum for wanting their girl to get implants. The guy simply cannot tell her what to do. If she wants to fine, but if not, he has the choice- ignore it, or leave.
“I think there is only one artist who successfuly caught the very sinister macabric essence of female soul.” You really are in your own little world.
This really is mental masturbation (pun intended). This is how simple it is. If the Girl doesn’t like porn you ask how important it is to her. Find out how important it is and then make a decision. Porn or the Girl. You can compromise and throw out the porn. Nothing wrong with that. Because everyone here knows that if you are going to have a relationship you have to compromise. No, don’t bullshit me on this. Whether it’s not leaving socks on the floor, TV stations, what Movie you two are going to see, household chores in general, color of the house, color of the drapes, blah, blah, blah. So let’s not play dumb. Well, maybe you’re a hitter and your girl is to scared to speak her mind, so that is different. Or, if porn is more important than her, dump her. That easy. But don’t spew this crap how one does not have to make compromises in a relationship. What are you dating your doppleganger? “Gee, That’s what I was thinking. Hey, we said that together! giggle, giggle.” And yes, we do have Hormones, but we also have free will. So use it to decide, the girl or the porn. Your call.
It’s kind of east of downtown. Get off the Clipper or the Coho, go to the other side of the Inner Harbour, get on Fort St & keep going out of town until Foul Bay Rd (Fort & Foul Bay is the corner my Safeway is on). Go left & up the hill, keep going straight until you get to UVic. It’s only about a 15-20min drive. (or 20-25 mins on bus #14) Everythings so close together.
“Demo Dick- you crack me up how you always take the women point of view in every discussion- as if it gives you a warm, important feeling in our gut, and you’re gonna score with the women of the forum by being a suck up.”
Excuse me, but “the women (sic)” point of view? What are we in the third grade here? I didn’t know this was a “boys against girls” situation. I had it wrong from the start, as I was under the impression that we weren’t locked into one side depending on what our genitals looked like. Thanks for the heads up. As for trying to score with the women of the forum, well, maybe you should check out another active thread where I ate shit for calling out a woman for being needy. Yeah, I’m a real fucking Romeo all right. Got ‘em lining up in droves.
“Demo- look this word up- Hormone. Thats what directs a mans focus.”
You didn’t spell it out, but I’m sure you mean testosterone and its impact on sexual drive. Yes, to an extent, you’re correct. I never claimed otherwise. Sweet Lord, I have enough of this stuff in MY system to know what it does. But it isn’t the ONLY thing that drives me. You either. Unless, of course, you go into a rut every spring and scrape your antlers against trees whilst pissing on yourself. Animals do that. I hope you don’t.
“Demo- look this word up- Hormone. Thats what directs a mans focus.”
Steve, I have a word for YOU to look up: socialization. I believe that THAT is the reason that we do 90% of the stuff that we do. Sorry, I’m a sociologist, and that’s where I’m coming from.
“...If you don't believe it, take a look at any man or animal who has lost it's testes.”
Like, say, for instance, the eunuchs of ancient Greece? These guys had their nads clipped before puberty and were PRIZED for their sexual ability. Women didn’t have to worry about getting knocked up, and the eunuchs themselves were walking hard-ons (can you say NO refractory time?). Yeah, the resulting loss of T made them flabby and less aggressive. But they got more ass than a toilet seat, and they did it without their balls. How about Butch, my neighbor’s dog? Damn thing had his boys cut off and he STILL tries to hump anything that moves. He has no idea what he’s doing, but he sure does have fun doing it! I’m not suggesting that testosterone isn’t a powerful sexual hormone, but it isn’t the only thing that makes us want to get laid. I’m still keeping my testes intact though. :)
I like porn because it’s real life. Most women are like that you know.
If we come up there, you have to promise to have a few beers with us. I’ll buy. 
There is a guy on another bodybuilding board who has a great tagline below his signature. It says the following: “If you are going to argue with me, don’t twist my words to fit your view, or else I will ignore your ignorant and stupid self.” I will not be rude and tell you the same, if nothing else because you are a lady, instead, I will try to correct what you just said.
The cum dumpster observation was in the thread started by Veljko about a girl who obviously goes around from hand to hand (or something else) more than an average dollar bill. It was not about women generally.
I do not see the problem with Giger’s art - if you have it, like with porn, maybe you should address him personally. The guy is alive,
kicking and even has a website. As for the collar comment, sorry,but I have a serious problem about being somebody’s freak on a leash. “Women are generally everything but nice” is a sentence written in
certain context and I stand 100 % behind it just like I stay behind everything I say. This is my personal opinion. What do you think, why
did I put the word “generally” there? Because “generally” is not equal to “all”. There are exceptions, at least I hope so.
I would not say I have a negative attitude towards women. I am very open minded, open for dialogue and do not have problem with people.
Smart people, that is.
About being hurt badly, it usually does not pay to play amateur psychologist after you read several somebody’s posts and that is
exactly what you are trying to do.
Ko, there are several other guys in this thread who think about this topic exactly just like I do. They gave some great explanations and insights. There are also several women (yes, TRUE, obviously great women) who see no issue here at all. Please, concentrate on them too and do not try to flame only me. It seems that I am not alone in this, you know.
Not too many though.
Steve - if my partner came home and said ‘I don’t want you to go to the gym anymore’ I would say ‘why?’ If he had good reason, if there was a basis for his arguement, I would compromise. I’m sorry if you don’t believe that. Perhaps he sees that I am over training, or need to rest an injury, or am neglecting him or my house, or any of a million other things that someone who loves me could see. That is reason for compromise. If he wanted me to stop because he couldn’t watch me and he thought guys might talk to me or other such bullshit, I’d reassure him and then tell him to grow up. The difference is the reasons behind the request.
I have a married friend, her husband went out with the boys 4-5 nights a week before they were married, now they have cut it back to two. Not because she owns him, but because he understands that he has responsibilities to his wife and family and home. Would he rather be out partying instead of doing dishes or cutting the grass? Probably. But that is called compromise. And he has decided his marriage is more important than his friends, and she understands that he needs a life, so they found a middle ground.
“If he wanted me to stop because he couldn’t watch me and he thought guys might talk to me or other such bullshit, I’d reassure him and then tell him to grow up.” - If a woman tells me that she dislikes porn because she is insecure in her self-image, I reassure her and tell her to grow up too.