Getting Big: What Works

Training Bodybuilding
121

[quote]shizen wrote:
Der Candy wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Progressive overload (more weight or reps every single workout), FOOD, sufficient rest (different individuals will require different amounts of rest), consistency and time.

/end thread.

um its kind of really hard to add weight EVERY workout along with reps. I get the point of going up higher when your stronger but I haven’t met many people who are not beginners adding like 10lbs to there bench,squat or dl every workout. [/quote]

I said more weight OR reps, not more weight AND reps. There is a difference. Also, I know of several (quite a few actually) bodybuilders (and certainly not beginners either) who add weight just about every workout (it doesn’t have to be 10 lbs each time, I never said it did).

I myself have added at least 5 lbs to all of my lifts (just about) every workout since I started the current program that I’m on. And many times it’s been more along the lines of 20-30 lbs on big compound lowerbody exercises (deads, leg press, squats, etc…).

I should probably also point out though that I only repeat the same exercise every 2 weeks, so it’s not like I’m adding that much weight on a weekly basis. Still, as Austin pointed out, if I were to never plateau on any lifts (which does happen, at which point I will substitute another lift for that body part and once again progressively add weight/reps, even 5 lbs each time) I would on this program add 130 lbs to each of my lifts over the course of a year.

Adding 130 lbs to a lift is going to be a significant weight increase and is going to (provided that the other components that I mentioned earlier are in place) mean a significant adaptation in the way of muscle mass as well. Extend that over a 5 year period and you’d theoretically be lifting 650 lbs more than you started!

Now obviously that’s just a hypothetical situation. You are going to plateau on lifts, there are genetic limitations on how strong you can get so you aren’t going to be curling 650 lbs after 5 years. But, the methodology behind what I’m talking about is precisely what will get you to your muscular genetic potential.

You can super-set, giant set; agonize about set/rep schemes; focus on rep speed, rest times, workout frequency, etc… till you’re blue in the face. But if you’re not utilizing progressive overload, eating enough food and getting sufficient rest, you’re just not going to reach your potential (unless perhaps you’re a genetic freak like Dillet, in which case you’re probably not reading this thread).

122

[quote] Matt wrote:
I understand your reasoning, but don’t see it really holding up in real life. I still say the quickest way is to find the big guys who are where you want to be, and train with them and listen to them.

Just seems the odds would be very tough to find that one big dude, who also happened to start out with the same body type as you, and then try and talk/lift with him.

[/quote]

well yea, that’s why I said there’s no one who’s the perfect example you should follow, so we should just be open-minded in who we take advice from. Shunning a small dude or a big dude makes no sense - listen to what they each have to say because it might be good and it might be bullshit.

I think “big dudes” are more likely to have made themselves big than “strong dudes” making themself strong, now that I think about it - so yea all extremely muscular dudes you see probably know how they go there.

123

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Chances are, that huge guy in the corner wasn’t born that way.[/quote]

I agree.

I’ve never once heard anyone expressing that they believe that. Have you?

Do we? I’ve not seen it. Can you link me to anywhere where someone says this shit?

Thanks

–Joe

124

Just to chime in at this juncture, it is a very simple matter of deduced probabability.

That really huge gorilla over there with the sweaty (very sweaty) clothes on has PROBABLY been training longer than the underwear model lecturing the girls with a bunch of techno babble.

Having PROBABLY been training longer (PROBABLY a lot longer) he has hence PROBABLY made more mistakes to go along with his obvious success.

He has also PROBABLY stumbled over a lot more things that work.

He MOST PROBABLY has 10 times the drive and commitment as well, which may be the most contagious and important aspect of all.

Some may be shocked to learn that that guy also PROBABLY won’t arrogantly snub a novice trainee if he’s approached with the right attitude.

Along those lines he also PROBABLY learned long ago that offering advice to someone who hasn’t asked is a complete and utter waste of his time and it’s PROBABLY still a complete and utter waste of time with half of those who do ask.

Forgetting about probability for a second he MOST ASSUREDLY knows more and is better equipped than 99% of the people who show up in cyberspace asking questions and is PROBABLY better equipped than 85% of the ones who will attempt answers AND has the advantage of being in the same room with the guy.

There are no certainties in this regard so you can either do a 5 year research project or ask the guy, or guys, who are PROBABLY in the best position to get your ass steered in the right direction.

125

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Just to chime in at this juncture, it is a very simple matter of deduced probabability.

That really huge gorilla over there with the sweaty (very sweaty) clothes on has PROBABLY been training longer than the underwear model lecturing the girls with a bunch of techno babble.

Having PROBABLY been training longer (PROBABLY a lot longer) he has hence PROBABLY made more mistakes to go along with his obvious success.

He has also PROBABLY stumbled over a lot more things that work.

He MOST PROBABLY has 10 times the drive and commitment as well, which may be the most contagious and important aspect of all.

Some may be shocked to learn that that guy also PROBABLY won’t arrogantly snub a novice trainee if he’s approached with the right attitude.

Along those lines he also PROBABLY learned long ago that offering advice to someone who hasn’t asked is a complete and utter waste of his time and it’s PROBABLY still a complete and utter waste of time with half of those who do ask.

Forgetting about probability for a second he MOST ASSUREDLY knows more and is better equipped than 99% of the people who show up in cyberspace asking questions and is PROBABLY better equipped than 85% of the ones who will attempt answers AND has the advantage of being in the same room with the guy.

There are no certainties in this regard so you can either do a 5 year research project or ask the guy, or guys, who are PROBABLY in the best position to get your ass steered in the right direction.

[/quote]

Why this even needs to be said - much less said over and again - is beyond me.

126

[quote]rock_ten wrote:

Professor X wrote:For people to walk around assuming even the majority of big guys simply accidentally got huge makes no sense at all.

I’ve never once heard anyone expressing that they believe that. Have you?[/quote]

Not in those words but what do you think is implied when someone writes, “I would also shy away from using pro bodybuilders as examples”. Obviously, “pro bodybuilders” won’t be the only people that pop into mind when a newbie reads this. You would have to be pretty naive to think this wouldn’t lead to people shying away from using any bodybuilders who approach the extreme in development as examples.

Why does this need to be spelled out? I swear there are many of you who act as if because you didn’t write the specific words that nothing is implied.

It’s being said in the simple action of coming up with reasons not to speak to the larger bodybuilder for advice. Someone really attempting to push their own limits wouldn’t even think of avoiding speaking with people who had already done that.

127

[quote]rock_ten wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Chances are, that huge guy in the corner wasn’t born that way.

I agree.

Professor X wrote:For people to walk around assuming even the majority of big guys simply accidentally got huge makes no sense at all.

I’ve never once heard anyone expressing that they believe that. Have you?

Professor X wrote:It really sounds like people try to make this harder simply so they don’t admit that someone with biceps as big as most people’s thighs just might know something about bodybuilding. All we keep hearing is about some imaginary person who doesn’t know anything about how they got that way.

Do we? I’ve not seen it. Can you link me to anywhere where someone says this shit?

Thanks

–Joe

[/quote]

I’ll bite again.

When denying a principle of this logical construction you are of necessity affirming some version of it’s opposite whether you positively state it that way or not.

Now it’s Rainjack’s turn to point out how having explain that is befuddling as well.

I’d like to think I’m a reasonably intelligent guy, but I’m starting to suspect that some of us are either towering specimens of intellectual supremacy or some of the rest should exercise their minds before they start worrying about their bodies.

EDIT: Professor X beat me to it.

128

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
rock_ten wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Chances are, that huge guy in the corner wasn’t born that way.

I agree.

Professor X wrote:For people to walk around assuming even the majority of big guys simply accidentally got huge makes no sense at all.

I’ve never once heard anyone expressing that they believe that. Have you?

Professor X wrote:It really sounds like people try to make this harder simply so they don’t admit that someone with biceps as big as most people’s thighs just might know something about bodybuilding. All we keep hearing is about some imaginary person who doesn’t know anything about how they got that way.

Do we? I’ve not seen it. Can you link me to anywhere where someone says this shit?

Thanks

–Joe

I’ll bite again.

When denying a principle of this logical construction you are of necessity affirming some version of it’s opposite whether you positively state it that way or not.

Now it’s Rainjack’s turn to point out how having explain that is befuddling as well.

I’d like to think I’m a reasonably intelligent guy, but I’m starting to suspect that some of us are either towering specimens of intellectual supremacy or some of the rest should exercise their minds before they start worrying about their bodies.

EDIT: Professor X beat me to it.[/quote]

I think it’s a mixture of being a relative newbie yet thinking their every thought is worth listening to and simply not being as “intellectual” as they think they are. I really can’t believe this needs to be spelled out in these terms on a bodybuilding forum. That means most of the ones arguing must not be growing much at all.

129

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Not in those words but what do you think is implied when someone writes, “I would also shy away from using pro bodybuilders as examples”. Obviously, “pro bodybuilders” won’t be the only people that pop into mind when a newbie reads this. You would have to be pretty naive to think this wouldn’t lead to people shying away from using any bodybuilders who approach the extreme in development as examples.

Why does this need to be spelled out? I swear there are many of you who act as if because you didn’t write the specific words that nothing is implied.[/quote]

Probably if someone didn’t write something explicitly then they didn’t intend to and didn’t want that to be assumed from what they did write. If they did mean to imply something that they didn’t actually say then hopefully that would be clarified in subsequent posts with a clear statement of what they meant.

No one’s giving reasons not to speak with a BBer, but just saying that its not a sure way to get good or relevant advice, and big dudes shouldn’t be copied unquestioningly. And I’m sure you agree with this. As someone else noted, its a matter of probability - and there’s a pretty good chance a big dude knows a thing or two about getting big. To what extent his help and advice will benefit any particular trainee is another variable, but in any case its worth hearing.

I don’t think anyone here would say that overall a trainee shouldn’t listen to any advice offered by a BBer (or any other successful person). I can only assume that this is mostly a case, like with most online arguments, of actually everyone agreeing almost completely but using different words to express their thoughts and misinterpreting the positions of others.

130

You know what? A lot of big and strong guys are horrible sources of training advice for most people.

You know what else? There�??s not a single skinny fuck in the world I�??d take training advice from. If you haven�??t done it yourself, you really don�??t know shit about what it takes.

Being big and strong doesn�??t guarantee that your advice is worth anything. Being small and weak does guarantee that your advice is worth nothing.

131

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I’ll bite again.

When denying a principle of this logical construction you are of necessity affirming some version of it’s opposite whether you positively state it that way or not.
[/quote]

Are referring to your last post, about the probabilities involved, as the?

I basically agree with what you said in it, anyway.

132

I’m saying that by affirming someone should go south to get to their destination you are by unavoidable implication denying that they should north even though you didn’t explicitly say that.

133

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m saying that by affirming someone should go south to get to their destination you are by unavoidable implication denying that they should north even though you didn’t explicitly say that.[/quote]

Wait. Let me see if I follow because my wit is slow and my brain hurts when you start speaking logically. Are you saying that if someone writes, “I would also shy away from using pro bodybuilders as examples”, that this could imply that bodybuilders should be avoided because the bigger ones don’t know how to instruct anyone else?

I mean, he didn’t write EXACTLY THAT so you must be doing some sort of witchcraft to arrive at the conclusion of what else is implied.

“You should go South”.

“That means don’t go North”

“Well, he didn’t SAY don’t go North!!”

“Who’s on first?”

134

[quote]Ramo wrote:
You know what? A lot of big and strong guys are horrible sources of training advice for most people.

You know what else? There�??s not a single skinny fuck in the world I�??d take training advice from. If you haven�??t done it yourself, you really don�??t know shit about what it takes.

Being big and strong doesn�??t guarantee that your advice is worth anything. Being small and weak does guarantee that your advice is worth nothing.
[/quote]

Of course there are some big guys who are in fact genetic freaks and clearly enhanced that are not going to be good sources for noobs. There will be some who just aren’t good at working with and or teaching other people as well. There will also be some who are just assholes, but if you’re going to tell somebody to find someone to help them out while they’re getting started their best bet is looking to the guys who have actually gotten somewhere.

Most PT’s are useless beyond basic fitness so who else are they supposed to turn to? There have been a couple guys in recent weeks in the beginners forum who clearly need somebody there with them to help them lay a foundation. I tell them to find somebody who looks like they’ve been around a while and see if they’ll give you a hand which in most cases they will provided you have the right attitude.

I don’t think you’re disagreeing with any of that.

135

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ramo wrote:
You know what? A lot of big and strong guys are horrible sources of training advice for most people.

You know what else? There�??s not a single skinny fuck in the world I�??d take training advice from. If you haven�??t done it yourself, you really don�??t know shit about what it takes.

Being big and strong doesn�??t guarantee that your advice is worth anything. Being small and weak does guarantee that your advice is worth nothing.

Of course there are some big guys who are in fact genetic freaks and clearly enhanced that are not going to be good sources for noobs. There will be some who just aren’t good at working with and or teaching other people as well. There will also be some who are just assholes, but if you’re going to tell somebody to find someone to help them out while they’re getting started their best bet is looking to the guys who have actually gotten somewhere.

Most PT’s are useless beyond basic fitness so who else are they supposed to turn to? There have been a couple guys in recent weeks in the beginners forum who clearly need somebody there with them to help them lay a foundation. I tell them to find somebody who looks like they’ve been around a while and see if they’ll give you a hand which in most cases they will provided you have the right attitude.

I don’t think you’re disagreeing with any of that.[/quote]

No, I do agree with that. I’m saying:

(1) One does well to consider whether information they receive rings true. This is like any other endeavor…if something sounds like bullshit to you, be wary.

(2) One should try to become self-reliant as quickly as possible. Your body is your laboratory, and you have to pay attention and make judgments for yourself about what works and what doesn’t.

(3) For whatever reason, the quest for size and strength draws every asshole and their grandmother out of the woodwork proffering advice. This is an applied science; if the application isn’t there, knowledge is incomplete and not of much use. So take advice from those who’ve applied information successfully.

136

[quote]Ramo wrote:

No, I do agree with that. I’m saying:

(1) One does well to consider whether information they receive rings true. This is like any other endeavor…if something sounds like bullshit to you, be wary.

(2) One should try to become self-reliant as quickly as possible. Your body is your laboratory, and you have to pay attention and make judgments for yourself about what works and what doesn’t.

(3) For whatever reason, the quest for size and strength draws every asshole and their grandmother out of the woodwork proffering advice. This is an applied science; if the application isn’t there, knowledge is incomplete and not of much use. So take advice from those who’ve applied information successfully. [/quote]

I’ve gone on record here as saying that if you don’t develop an intuitive self awareness in some relatively short period of time then you aren’t going to excel in this game. That doesn’t mean you should quit or that you’re a moron, but if you’re 2 years in and ASKING what program to follow next you have not gotten it and most likely never will.

Furthermore I will be so bold as to say that the same people who’s “truth ringer” serves them well will also be the ones who do develop their own philosophy and methods before the turn of the next century. For some folks, everything they haven’t heard before rings true and the more technical it sounds the truer it rings.

I should clarify something in a previous post and I’ll do it by borrowing your wording.

Being a genetic freak and or enhanced does not guarantee that your information will be worthless either. Even to a noob. Such a person just may be insightful enough to tailor his advice to someone not in his league. It’s become popular to believe that every really big strong guy is a barely literate pincushion who who communicates in grunts and signs his name with an X (no familiar allusions here please) Like any other area of life there are some this may be true of and others not.

The bottom line is, in the very beginning an experienced, accomplished lifter can be a godsend to somebody with the right attitude and can save him much wasted time. I had NOBODY to help me and had to figure out everything on my own. This was in the days when steroids just didn’t come up in polite conversation. Their use wasn’t denied or affirmed it just wasn’t discussed in any of the mags which were the only source of info back then. No internet either.

On one hand I feel like I appreciate this game better than a lot of people because of that, but on the other would’ve been grateful for some iron hardened vets who could have saved me a bunch of time and wheel spinning.

137

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

When denying a principle of this logical construction you are of necessity affirming some version of it’s opposite whether you positively state it that way or not.[/quote]

My post was incomplete last time, it seems. I asked:

Are you referring to your last post, about the probabilities involved, when you say “this logical construction”?
If so, then I don’t think anyone disagreed with it.

If not, what logical construction do you have in mind that is having its principles denied?

Also, I don’t see how your North/South scenario is at all analogous to what has happened in this thread. Can you link it directly to the issue at hand for me, please?

Thanks

–Joe

138

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wait. Let me see if I follow because my wit is slow and my brain hurts when you start speaking logically. Are you saying that if someone writes, “I would also shy away from using pro bodybuilders as examples”, that this could imply that bodybuilders should be avoided because the bigger ones don’t know how to instruct anyone else?

I mean, he didn’t write EXACTLY THAT so you must be doing some sort of witchcraft to arrive at the conclusion of what else is implied.[/quote]

That’s a bizarre leap of interpretation from what was said to what you’re suggesting can be taken as implied.
Its nothing at all like the mutually-exclusive North/South situation.

139

[quote]rock_ten wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Wait. Let me see if I follow because my wit is slow and my brain hurts when you start speaking logically. Are you saying that if someone writes, “I would also shy away from using pro bodybuilders as examples”, that this could imply that bodybuilders should be avoided because the bigger ones don’t know how to instruct anyone else?

I mean, he didn’t write EXACTLY THAT so you must be doing some sort of witchcraft to arrive at the conclusion of what else is implied.

That’s a bizarre leap of interpretation from what was said to what you’re suggesting can be taken as implied.
Its nothing at all like the mutually-exclusive North/South situation.[/quote]

Listen, this isn’t just about this thread. It’s been going on forever. When someone says something like “The biggest strongest guys are not good sources of information” which has been said many times, they are also saying, without actually articulating the words, one or more of the following:

  1. They got where they are by showing up and moving some weight around without any real knowledge of what they were doing, hence, in effect, by happy accident.

  2. They are on drugs, which instantly precludes them from any contribution whatsoever.

  3. They are on the extreme anabolic end of the gene pool which also precludes them from any meaningful contribution.

  4. They are intellectually vacant knuckle draggers which when combined with the above makes them not only incapable of useful input, but people who take up space at best and are downright dangerous at worst.

You’re gonna say you never said any of that. Fine, but try to understand this discussion from a bigger perspective.

The funniest part of all this is that rarely is anybody even talking about PRO bodybuilders. How many people will ever meet a pro bodybuilder nevermind having the opportunity to train with one? (as Scott already said). Also nobody with a triple digit training IQ is going to say that everything an enhanced guy says is going to be usable by a natural trainee, but that does not mean that nothing they say will be either. They’re not aliens. They have all the same physiological processes as everybody else albeit somewhat turbocharged.

I don’t understand how this gets so controversial. In every even half ass serious gym there are some guys who everybody knows are there to kick some ass and will be there next year bigger and stronger than they were this year. If you need help ask those guys. One day they may sic you on the new guy with pride in how far you’ve come (with their indispensable help of course)

140

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I don’t understand how this gets so controversial.

[/quote]

I do, but I get tired of pointing out that only the smallest lifters making the least progress would ever even focus in on what they supposedly can’t learn from someone with that much size gained.